Haditha's incident

[Raesvelg]

Bored and suffering from mild insomnia, I'll post a reply on this one. I'm not gonna make a habit of it tho', so don't be sad when I don't reply again.

There has been more than 1 innocent man tried, convicted, and put to death in an electric Chair. Read about it here.

There's a significant difference between someone executed by mistake and someone executed by an angry jihadist with a machete. Using that as a comparison is distinctly flawed. You may not agree with the death penalty, but you must acknowledge the legal process as being somewhat more valid and sophisticated than pulling a man off the street and cutting his head off.

America has problems of it's own.

I for one will not debate that assertion. I will argue that, for the most part, those problems are both less severe and less fundamental than those you'd find in, say, Iran.

How bout the family and friends of those dead people? The media never made anything of the water bottle video. I found that on i-am-bored.com, and most people were laughing it up. If you want to criticize the media, criticize them for not reporting crime in america as fervently as they report crime in the Middle east. Perhaps that is why your view of America is skewed.

Do we watch the same media? "If it bleeds, it leads" has been the maxim of the US media since the 60s, and that seems unlikely to change. The only possible basis for that argument is that most cable channels try to find a topic that appeals to larger audiences, so local news (ie, most murders) gets left out. There's more to news than CNN. Perhaps that's why your view of America is skewed.

As for the water bottle video, it lacks context. Like most inflammatory videos, oddly enough.

It happens.

Every few decades, with longer gaps pretty much every time. Sadly, it's more indicative of a subcultural flaw than a societal one.

So if more people live in a country it is more likely to have more crime per 100,000 people? I'm gonna need you to explain that one to me.

The psychology of overcrowding, actually. The vast majority of murders in the US are committed in cities. Studies done on rats show that when severely overcrowded, rats exhibit behaviors such as murder, cannibalism, etc. Out in the countryside, it's a different story. You're a lot less likely to murder your neighbor when you have to drive an hour to do it.

On another note, murder demographics are unreliable when you're relying on local enforcement agencies and voluntary reporting. Not every country is honest about such things, after all. Not to mention the difference in what some countries define as murder.

 

[Uzor]

Assuming I know the part you're referring to...

You know I don't really feel that way, personally, about us helping kill them (because I don't think we're doing half the shit they chalk us up to doing), but I needed to make a point. Wrong way to do it? Maybe, but it's not a bad analogy, so to speak. I don't want their innocent civilians to die but the same would be true if we were living in a war zone... Civilians would die and stress would be relieved, sometimes, with random killing. It's not right, it's brutal and very wrong, but it's the reality of it.

I don't believe the "media" caught this event right, nor did we handle it right.

And yet you call Quitita a racist for saying something too. So it's OK for you to say soemthing, but when Quitita says something it's racist?

Anyway, not here to start a personal fight. You didn't call Quitita a racist, so sorry about that Didn't mean to say it to you personally, mainly those that called him a racist. Don't know who xD Anyway.

Yes primitive savages is my quote. I will treat them like an educated people when they dont blow eachother up by the hundreds on a daily basis. Wanton slaughter of their own civilians. Oh sure I dont doubt there are Iraqis who are damn fine people, their have to be plenty, least I really hope so. However they dont speak for their nation, their ACTIONS speak for their nation. You want me to have a shred of respect for them they need to earn it in some way. When a people as a whole only understand and respond to violince on that order? Call me a cynic, I just have absoloutly no faith in them ever putting together a place that can be remotely called a country.

I think it's unfair to say say a minority's action speak for the country as a whole. If the only news of America we got was about K.K.K and other groups like "The Family", we'd think America was a perverted and savage country who only kills eachother and fucks their own daughters.

And i do believe the media has a huge part in what people think of others (countries). We always hear about muslim radical this, car bomb that... so what are we supposed to think besides the idea that they all do it, all the time? Now i dont live over there, and i cant see what America looks like on TV, except for that North Korea propeganda that got put on YouTube, so how am i expected to think of the middle east when all i get is garbage from media?

the media controlls our views. If all they post is death and destruction, ones oppinion and views can be rather narrow. It's quite sad. That's why, atleast in Sweden, school teaches us to read and watch news critically. To not believe everything they say. Media have a rather bad habbit of only showing what they want to show, to show their own oppinion, or only show one side of what happened. I do believe most people who are strongly opposed to muslim countries have had their minds "brain washed" by the media.
[/quote]

"But look what your soldiers did!!! They must pay!!!"
Yeah maybe, but don't come at me with it, and don't make this an excuse to run your mouths and hold America as a whole under your thumbs because of the actions of some soldiers. Fightin' words are still fightin' words, so don't make it a bigger deal than it needs to be.

This quote in particular is important to this subject. You agree that the actions of a few soldiers doesn't mean you should hold all of them under one thumb and lump them all together as bad. The very same can be said abotu muslims.

The actions of a few muslims shouldn't mean oyu can lump them all together as bad. All muslims shouldn't have to pay for something some other muslims did. It's the very same thing.

As for muslims, the radical muslim groups abuse Jihad. Originally, Jihad can only be called out by the leader of the country. The muslims that do this, though, think they can call it out on everything. The majority of the muslims don't agree with what these terrorists do. They call jihad (meaning "holy war), and blow themselves up. They believe they do it in Allah's name, but they're really not. They are brainwashed by their "leader" to do this.

So one could say there's a difference between them. The soldiers kill because their leader sent them there. Thus, the leader agree with what the soldiers do in the country. The terrorists do it on their own. The leader of their country don't agree with what's happening.

While no, that's not my oppinion. But it does raise a quite interresting thought.

 

[Aaleel]

I can't see anyone who's kept up with this story trying to defend these Marines or some of the people in the chain of command.

They killed these people at close range, and covered it up. Then even though the Marines who investigated the shootings found evidence that was inconsistent with their story, they did nothing but further extend the cover up. They got cornered with video and picture evidence from an outside source before they were forced to take action. Then threw the marines under the bus saying they were trying to investigate it, but the marines cover-up made i hard.

The media has nothing to do with it. I'm don't know anything about IEDs or working in a CSI lab, but I know I can probably tell the difference between a body that was shot, and a body that was hit with an explosive. They killed the people in cold blood, plain and simple. You can't call people savages for doing it in one case, but say "oh I can see where they were coming from", or "I don't blame them" in another.

There's another case being investigated where a Marine raped a girl, and killed her family. These people have to be brought to account.

Cops have a hard time on the street everyday too, but does that excuse them shooting an unarmed man 52 times the day before his wedding.

Wrong is wrong, it's not wrong when you don't agree with and ok when you do.

And there are plenty of Iraqis who have fled the violence to other countries, lawyers, doctors, businessman, all the way to impoverished people. So the blanket statements are absolutely atroscious.

 

[Strid]

And yet you call Quitita a racist for saying something too. So it's OK for you to say soemthing, but when Quitita says something it's racist?

Anyway, not here to start a personal fight. You didn't call Quitita a racist, so sorry about that Didn't mean to say it to you personally, mainly those that called him a racist. Don't know who xD Anyway.

I haven't called anyone a racist anywhere in the, I'm pretty sure, entire history of this board. I don't even know who Quitita is.

Bold: My brain 'sploded. Posted just to clarify. Me calling someone a racist,ever, would be mildly hypocritical.

 

[Uzor]

I haven't called anyone a racist anywhere in the, I'm pretty sure, entire history of this board. I don't even know who Quitita is.

Bold: My brain 'sploded. Posted just to clarify. Me calling someone a racist,ever, would be mildly hypocritical.

Yes, I know. First sentence I remembered wrong and thought you called Quitita a racist.

In the second sentence I excused myself for it. That's why it's contradicting.

Edit: sperring ftl

 

[Direwolf]

Its unfair your right Uzor, not saying the world is a happy or a fair face. My outlook is far to grim for that. Take a look at the Nazi Regime in the 1930s/40s, the Nazis did not speak for everyone in Germany, however their voice were by far the loudest. Communists in russia? My god man my best friend is Ukranine, I think 2 members of his family have died in the last 50 years in ways that DONT involve the KGB. You have no idea how much he hates the communist system. I aint talking about a strong dislike, or that racism crap you hear/see. A true and total loathing that is a little terrifying. Again, its the people who make their voices heard that speak for a country.

 

[Firestreak]

I've been pretty supportive of the troops, and the war, but seriously, shit like this needs to stop or else we might as well pull out cause this is just a waste of our time to be in there and doing anything to make the country worse.

 

[RoM]

I've been pretty supportive of the troops, and the war, but seriously, shit like this needs to stop or else we might as well pull out cause this is just a waste of our time to be in there and doing anything to make the country worse.

Sadly ,this is what i've been thinking about the whole thing since the civilian casualties rocketed over the numbers pre-saddam/invasion. :/

Cake or death?

Cake.

Well, i'm sorry but we're all out of cake.

So you mean my choice is 'or death?'

*nod*

well, i'll have the chicken.

Maybe not today maybe not tomorrow but soon, let's just go.

 

[Trippyhippy]

The psychology of overcrowding, actually. The vast majority of murders in the US are committed in cities. Studies done on rats show that when severely overcrowded, rats exhibit behaviors such as murder, cannibalism, etc. Out in the countryside, it's a different story. You're a lot less likely to murder your neighbor when you have to drive an hour to do it.

US
5,984,685 miles² (9,631,418 km²)
Total Population 296,410,404
Population Density = 34.775 people per km²

Iraq
438,320 km²
Total Population 26,074,906
Density: 59.488 people per km²

Here is a wiki source that has all the countries listed by population density. I got the numbers above from a different source. Reguardless, both sources report Iraq as being more densly populated. Iraq, Kuwait, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran all have a higher population density than the United States.

 

[K. Ishitar]

I hate to say it but it's not suprising they say that the most type of injury in the war is head injury and soldiers returning home from the war suffer an average of 20 IQ loss. They probrably have been fighting for a long time and not just fresh blood(comparitively speaking)

No war has a clean side unfortunately

 

[Bigboy]

I wish we'd stop pussyfooting around and just say the country is ours and install a government of our own. It could be our 51st state. I propose something whimsical like Sandonia. For that matter we have a few other countries I'd like to make states and visit without my passport.

 

[Raesvelg]

US
5,984,685 miles² (9,631,418 km²)
Total Population 296,410,404
Population Density = 34.775 people per km²

Iraq
438,320 km²
Total Population 26,074,906
Density: 59.488 people per km²

Here is a wiki source that has all the countries listed by population density. I got the numbers above from a different source. Reguardless, both sources report Iraq as being more densly populated. Iraq, Kuwait, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran all have a higher population density than the United States.

Wrong source material. Don't take the entire country into account, there are entire states in the US the size of Iraq with population densities under 10 people per square kilometer. New Jersey, on the other hand... The US is a country of very dense population centers (where most of the murders happen) interspersed between low-population areas where things are relatively civilized. Do people in the country still murder each other? Of course. But for some reason the US cultural psyche gets downright ugly in conditions of crowding (poverty implied, incidentally). The Japanese handle it better than we do. Others are worse than we are.

 

[Strid]

I wish we'd stop pussyfooting around and just say the country is ours and install a government of our own. It could be our 51st state. I propose something whimsical like Sandonia. For that matter we have a few other countries I'd like to make states and visit without my passport.

That would be pretty wrong on all sorts of levels.

 

[Uzor]

Wrong source material. Don't take the entire country into account, there are entire states in the US the size of Iraq with population densities under 10 people per square kilometer. New Jersey, on the other hand... The US is a country of very dense population centers (where most of the murders happen) interspersed between low-population areas where things are relatively civilized. Do people in the country still murder each other? Of course. But for some reason the US cultural psyche gets downright ugly in conditions of crowding (poverty implied, incidentally). The Japanese handle it better than we do. Others are worse than we are.

I did compare states. I compared New York. New York pretty much have the same criminality rate as the rest of the USA, so New York alone speak for the average of the entire country.

Irak as a whole is extremely densly populated as it is, due to them being rather small with a hugh population rate. So comparing New York to Irak is pretty much the same.

 

[Trippyhippy]

Wrong source material. Don't take the entire country into account, there are entire states in the US the size of Iraq with population densities under 10 people per square kilometer. New Jersey, on the other hand... The US is a country of very dense population centers (where most of the murders happen) interspersed between low-population areas where things are relatively civilized. Do people in the country still murder each other? Of course. But for some reason the US cultural psyche gets downright ugly in conditions of crowding (poverty implied, incidentally). The Japanese handle it better than we do. Others are worse than we are.

New Jersy? (population density approx. 1134 people/square mile)

Baghdad. (population density approx. 2811 people/square mile)

About 1/5 of the population of Iraq, more than 5 million Iraqis, live in Baghdad. They have giant patches of land (comparitivly speaking) with less than 10 people per square mile too.

 

[RoM]

I did compare states. I compared New York. New York pretty much have the same criminality rate as the rest of the USA, so New York alone speak for the average of the entire country.

Irak as a whole is extremely densly populated as it is, due to them being rather small with a hugh population rate. So comparing New York to Irak is pretty much the same.

CA would've been a better example since they're relatively the same size. I didn't do my homework tonight so pop density is speculation on my part but i'd wager it's close. Had you done this your numbers would be off on the crime rate avg in the country by a large percentage, which i'm willing to wager the NY to US totals are as well. It's give and take but the truth is the comparison is fundamentally flawed no matter how you slice it on this really. There's always something that throws the curve.

While perusing some sites to give myself a little claim here i happened upon this which, if nothing else, might help shed some light on what you guys are trying to get at.

 

[Raesvelg]

New Jersy? (population density approx. 1134 people/square mile)

Baghdad. (population density approx. 2811 people/square mile)

About 1/5 of the population of Iraq, more than 5 million Iraqis, live in Baghdad. They have giant patches of land (comparitivly speaking) with less than 10 people per square mile too.

Brilliant, compare a city to a state! IT'S GENIUS.

For the love of god can we compare apples to apples for once?

How about, say, New York City to Baghdad. Almost three thousand per square mile in Baghdad to... oh... over TWENTY SIX THOUSAND per square mile in New York. Or if you prefer to stay in the New Jersey example, Jersey City is almost sixteen thousand per. Hoboken & West New York are both considerably denser, Newark somewhat less so. Try Manhattan, with roughly 66,000/sq mile.

Ironically, European cities are frequently even more crowded than American ones, though again, crime rates indicate the same trend. More People + Less Space = More Crime.


And Uzor, I was talking to Trippy.

 

[Trippyhippy]

Brilliant, compare a city to a state! IT'S GENIUS.

Closest comparison I could come up with. Baghdad is a big city...

For the love of god can we compare apples to apples for once?

How about, say, New York City to Baghdad. Almost three thousand per square mile in Baghdad to... oh... over TWENTY SIX THOUSAND per square mile in New York. Or if you prefer to stay in the New Jersey example, Jersey City is almost sixteen thousand per. Hoboken & West New York are both considerably denser, Newark somewhat less so. Try Manhattan, with roughly 66,000/sq mile.

If I had done a city comparison, like you did, that wouldn't be apples to apples like you request since baghdad is roughly 6.5x the size of New York City.

We'd have to find cities with relativly the same size to make a valid comparison. There are no cities in america that large with over crowding problems. My initial point of this tangent was to illustrate that they don't have to drive a mile to kill someone. My point is that 5 million people live in an area of 1800 km². 1/5th of the population of the country in one city.

You use over crowding as an excuse for violence in america, then refuse to use it as a reason behind all the violence in Iraq because they have to walk a mile to kill their nieghbor.

Then there is my main point, which is that they are no more violent than americans. For every crazy ass murdering muslim extremists you show me, I can show you 10 crazy ass american extremists (since our population is 10x that of Iraqs) wether they are christian, k.k.k, white supreists, westboro baptist church member, congressman, etc.

 

[Bigboy]

That would be pretty wrong on all sorts of levels.

Probably, but it's an amusing thought. Imperialism has it's merits.

 

[Davio]

The real question is who the fuck killed Tupac...