Haditha's incident

[Firestreak]

I think trying to compare murder rates of people getting blown up with car bombs to murder rates of people getting mugged is a bit useless, but maybe I'm off in left field here.

 

[Raesvelg]

If I had done a city comparison, like you did, that wouldn't be apples to apples like you request since baghdad is roughly 6.5x the size of New York City.

Irrelevant, we're not talking about city SIZE, we're talking about population DENSITY. Besides, Baghdad is so big relative to New York in no small part because New York is bigger vertically, and because "New York" is broken up into a lot of satellite cities like Newark. US cities, as a general rule, calculate their densities from within the incorporated city limits, which makes the comparison slightly difficult.

You use over crowding as an excuse for violence in america, then refuse to use it as a reason behind all the violence in Iraq because they have to walk a mile to kill their nieghbor.

Tell me when I said that. I'm dead serious. I said, "in the countryside" which is far from specific to Iraq. In fact, it was intended to cover such things as the American Midwest, where crimes like murder are a lot less common. I said that increased population density, particularly coupled with poverty, tends to lead to aberrant behaviour. I said that crime statistics compiled in the Middle East are most likely suspect for obvious reasons.

I never excused the violence in America. You asked a question, I answered it, and have quite frankly proved my point that the US, in those areas that have severe crime issues, is generally pretty damn crowded and generally pretty damn poor, at least in the areas where the majority of crimes are being committed.

I never said we're any more or less violent than Iraqis. I did say we were more violent than some, and less than others, but the only example I used there was the Japanese, whose culture is configured rather differently than our own. Europe has similar and at times worse overcrowding than we do, but have significant differences in levels of socialization and a few other factors that contribute to a lower crime rate.

But I digress. Baghdad isn't that crowded. It's BIG, yes, but not that CROWDED. Secondly, in what bizarre parallel universe is Bagdad 6.5 times the size of NYC? Please, by all means provide a source on that one. Unless you're throwing in some seriously extensive areas outside the city, it should be in roughly the same size range as NYC. This is all largely irrelevant to my point, but I'm getting a little tired of you selectively editing the information you want to present here to make your case look better solely because you think I'm disagreeing with you.

 

[Strid]

Would you stop "feeling sick" now >_< This sucks dude, really bad...

((If you don't get this, it isn't for you so just disregard please))

 

[Trippyhippy]

I never excused the violence in America.

My question was asking to present an excuse as to why overcrowding made us more violent. My arguement is that it doesn't affect us any more than it does them.

You asked a question, I answered it, and have quite frankly proved my point that the US, in those areas that have severe crime issues, is generally pretty damn crowded and generally pretty damn poor, at least in the areas where the majority of crimes are being committed.

If you say you haven't presented an excuse, no, you haven't answered my question.

But I digress. Baghdad isn't that crowded. It's BIG, yes, but not that CROWDED. Secondly, in what bizarre parallel universe is Bagdad 6.5 times the size of NYC? Please, by all means provide a source on that one. Unless you're throwing in some seriously extensive areas outside the city, it should be in roughly the same size range as NYC. This is all largely irrelevant to my point, but I'm getting a little tired of you selectively editing the information you want to present here to make your case look better solely because you think I'm disagreeing with you.

Baghdad is roughly 2100 mi² and Manhatten is about 325 mi².

You can find that information easily enough if you look for it.

I am not selectivly editing anything. I suppose the reason I think you're disagreeing with me is because of the excuse I thought you were offering when you apperently answered a different question than the one I asked.

 

[Raesvelg]

Baghdad is roughly 2100 mi² and Manhatten is about 325 mi².

Odd that, since my sources place them both around 730-ish square kilometers.

 

[Trippyhippy]

Odd that, since my sources place them both around 730-ish square kilometers.

I'd like to see that source.

I personally got my number for the total area of Iraq by dividing the total population by the reported population density.

Reguardless, check this out.

Baghdad is right up there near the top of the list as far as largest cities in the world. Above Chicago, Above Los Angeles, and only 10 behind new york.

It's a big city, it's over crowded.

 

[Raesvelg]

I'd like to see that source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Governorate

Wiki, among others. The problem lies in distinguishing between the city core, the city limits, and the surrounding city area. Or City, Urban, and Metro areas if you prefer. NYC for example is 790, 8,600, and 17,400 or so square kilometers respectively.

You know, the more I look at the various statistics, the more I wonder where you got 2811 people/square mile as your figure for pop density in Baghdad. It strikes me it should be significantly higher.

Anyway.

Final statement on relative levels of overcrowding: NYC and surrounding urban areas fit 2/3rds of the population of Iraq into an area 1/50th the size.


As for the effect of overcrowding on crime, take Arizona for example. Drop Phoenix, Tuscon, and Mesa from the state, and suddenly the murder rate drops from 7.2 per 100k people to just 1.9. A rather marked change to say the least. Though admittedly you're axing about 1/3rd of the state's population when you do that.

Anyway, overcrowding + poverty = bad. I think we can all agree on that. You can debate the relative veracity of reported murder statistics with someone else, I'm getting tired of the typically circular nature of this argument.

 

[Trippyhippy]

NYC and surrounding urban areas fit 2/3rds of the population of Iraq into an area 1/50th the size.

1/50th? That number is way off even if you don't take into account the people that live in skyscrapers.

Anyway, overcrowding + poverty = bad. I think we can all agree on that.

I think we have agreed on that from the begining. The problem we're having is our individual opinions of what is overcrowded and what is not.

Another thing with new yourk is the fact that there are skyscrapers there. Not many of those layin around baghdad.

You can debate the relative veracity of reported murder statistics with someone else, I'm getting tired of the typically circular nature of this argument.

Murder statistics? I hadn't even gotten there yet. I was still trying to make the point that Baghdad is just as overcrowded as the largest cities in America.

Edit: USA today guy just delivered to my hotel... Front page headline:
As older cities shrink, some reinvent themselves
Population decline can lead to a better quality of life in some areas.

 

[Tymon]

If they did it intentionally they should be charged with murder.

Period.