Have the times really changed this much?

[hellstorm]

oh btw 2 thing drg was 64 and the party the brd heal was a 70-72 imp party.

 

[K. Ishitar]

Because melee gets a lot better as you level up, while blood pacts don't.

Correct, as the max potential damage for Double Slap is higher than Tail Slap, however in a regular exp party, those hits for Double Slap will usually miss and use more mp for the chance of hitting higher where as Tail Slap will hit for the same average of the one hit from Double Slap that usually lands(400-500 for two hits,about 200ish or one hit or if reduced hardcore 60-40).

96 for Double vs 49 for Tail, so it's really shooting yourself in the foot to rely on Double for consistent results(since Shiva has naturally bad accuracy anyways).

I put thunderspark as well since depending on the mob they're usually physically or magically inclined, and I try to use the opposite of the mobs nature to make the mp spent spread farther. When the mob is something like a crawler, i would use thunderspark over Double Slap, maybe Tail Whip for consistent damage.

 

[Sandria]

this is different from melee how? sword you using fast blade till you get vorpal blade. most the other weapon are same way. Though for the record double slap don't do to bad for it lvl.

There not as bad as you would think actually had them coheal in several party I have been in Even had 1 occasion where she was the one healing. Course this was imps and thing died fast but still. A nicely placed paeon and some cures does wonders. In this occasion the whm dc and never came back so brd keep healing, and unlike blm and blu can refresh themselfs. For the record I had a blu main heal party once. He actually didn't do a bad job.

First off never said they would do there normal brd role, secoundly never said that they should be healers if there other options out there. I said that if there ask to heal and trust me no one would ask a brd to heal(heck no one would even ask a smn to heal) unless they really needed a healer, then suck it up get some exp and heal. trust me I hate healing just much as the next person, but I love smn, and I love rdm. Which means that sometime order get a job done I have to heal, and I'm fine about that it part of the job that I sign up for. Just think it funny that say smn go heal sit there and say lol I'm disbanding because I won't heal as brd. Which in fact that they would do a better job then that of a pld, blu, or blm(with no refresher in party). So no there not at the bottem.

That's just it though, if you're at the point of considering a pld, blu, blm, etc to main heal in a merit party level range, you prolly should just consider going and doing something else during that time like farm zeni or something until some healers log on. I'd dare say that in lower levels any job with cure spell and the right set up could work if you needed it to, but just like you pointed out about smn being asked to heal is not often, certainly a lot less often would you expect those other jobs to heal. Difference is with summoner over bard is SMN was put into a corner on usefulness verses the other jobs you mentioned and their purpose in a party. Difference with me is, I'd rather SOLO on SMN (and dare I say do it pretty effectively) than smn main heal in a higher lvl party. And its not about not wanting to heal, because I have a WHM.. its just down to effectiveness. MP pool/ballad isnt the bread and butter by any means at higher lvl. Lower levels SMN outshines WHM as main heal, but once the dmg amounts change .. i'd estimate around when WHM gets Cure IV?V SMN will be out of mana a lot faster than the WHM reguardless of who has the most MP.

Not that my BRD is high enough to compare, but I'm pretty sure WHM without refresh/ballad would be more effective than BRD with ballad/mp gear/refresh gear. Willing to test it, cus I certainly could be wrong.

 

[Jeska]

That's just it though, if you're at the point of considering a pld, blu, blm, etc to main heal in a merit party level range, you prolly should just consider going and doing something else during that time like farm zeni or something until some healers log on..

Lol I still remember the lv 73/74 party I got invited to as a melee and the leader said "We dont need any Whm, we have two Dancers that can main-heal" Guess what they couldnt....

I knew I should have gone and done campiagn instead that day.

 

[K. Ishitar]

think that was just them...a dnc can heal pretty well just one relieves the healing

two is even better although i'd be hesistant to give up that slot for dnc instead of dd

 

[hellstorm]

Correct, as the max potential damage for Double Slap is higher than Tail Slap, however in a regular exp party, those hits for Double Slap will usually miss and use more mp for the chance of hitting higher where as Tail Slap will hit for the same average of the one hit from Double Slap that usually lands(400-500 for two hits,about 200ish or one hit or if reduced hardcore 60-40).

96 for Double vs 49 for Tail, so it's really shooting yourself in the foot to rely on Double for consistent results(since Shiva has naturally bad accuracy anyways).

I put thunderspark as well since depending on the mob they're usually physically or magically inclined, and I try to use the opposite of the mobs nature to make the mp spent spread farther. When the mob is something like a crawler, i would use thunderspark over Double Slap, maybe Tail Whip for consistent damage.

don't forget about double punch does pretty consistant dmg and used it more times then I can count when double slap was flim flam in acc. Btw there dmg and acc does get higher as your summoning magic get higher. So just as your flat blade hit harder so does your poision nails. Are they best dd? no, but last time I checked a war or mnk can't do stoneskin, blink, cure, and sleep.

 

[Bajaratt]

don't forget about double punch does pretty consistant dmg and used it more times then I can count when double slap was flim flam in acc. Btw there dmg and acc does get higher as your summoning magic get higher. So just as your flat blade hit harder so does your poision nails. Are they best dd? no, but last time I checked a war or mnk can't do stoneskin, blink, cure, and sleep.

And that's why a summoner's job is on the back line HEALING, and not dealing damage.

 

[K. Ishitar]

don't forget about double punch does pretty consistant dmg and used it more times then I can count when double slap was flim flam in acc. Btw there dmg and acc does get higher as your summoning magic get higher. So just as your flat blade hit harder so does your poision nails. Are they best dd? no, but last time I checked a war or mnk can't do stoneskin, blink, cure, and sleep.

I didn't, granted that's a slightly more reliable ws but I was seeing the same issue when I first got it, just not as bad as Double Slap, I'm just not too found of multi hit bps and I'll admit that I have not tried Double Punch for some time since I've found Thunderspark and Tail Whip to be more reliable throughout many levels, however I'd be biased in the opinion that Double Punch would easily overturn the former bps.

Just got 60 as well so I have to try the new magical bps and see how far they stretch although I think Meteorite would still be slightly better since it's slighty lower in cost and in perp.

 

[K. Ishitar]

i forgot to add about your last statement, yes bps do generally get more powerful as you get higher on but some will continue to stay at the consistency in comparison to the others. The damage given with the bps over the it range seems to be the same for me, only a slight increase every few levels so the damage should reflect the same.

granted my summoning skill isn't capped but I don't think it will change much.

lastly the last statement is irrelevant to the conversation

 

[Bluefrost]

I prefer to use Leviathan as his damage is more consistent than Garuda's.

 

[Keryan]

off main topic

I do believe some Blood pacts are TP based, and with the correct gear a smn can hit off bloodpacts every 37~40 seconds. With the correct gear the cost for the avatar being out is very small.

As for summoners "healing" remove the subjob and look at how many pacts can cure.... Lwvi, garuda, carby I can name off hand. Summoners can cure at the start no bp delay down once every minute, so not a main healer job by main job. I can say spamming cure 3 really does not cut it in most parties for main healing, I have done this and the tanks still have accidents.

You get no more than level two buffs. If your memebers are /nin your blink will not over ride utesumi. Haste from the avatar does not over write a whm or rdm haste. Back up healing is fine, but by level 70 if you are not using your bloodpacts for damage you are just gimping a party. I like seeing those 1-2k blood packs. I will agree that IF you have no rdm or whm main, these are better than nothing.

 

[K. Ishitar]

Well not really, having an avatar out does take its toll out on the smn over time, you have to really balance your bps and determine which ones are most appropriate for the pt, then of course for offensive bps there's the mob type in question.

While it's true that the perputation is short for each tick, it adds up pretty quick; it's still better to just bp and dismiss even though tp will affect most offensive bps the damage done isn't really a huge difference to compensate for the mp lost overtime.

Assuming you're main healing of course, even trying to play the dd role you still have to watch your mp and keep buffs up and have enough mp to keep chaining so it's limited.

But I'm fairly conservative with mp, comes from being a rdm too much I guess

 

[reddogneo]

Well id have to agree with both sides. Everyone should have oils and powders on them at all times but accidents happen. If your there to get xp or merits look at the bigger picture and accept that accidents happen I would have told him the same thing but still cam back to sneak him because i want xp and now before other parties take the good camps.

 

[Kitsuji]

Why don't PLD's have turbans like the sprites in previous games?

and I agree, oils and powders for everyone. people should be prepared for what ever outcome.

 

[Pompidou]

We always say that gimps shouldn't be tolerated. At least Falsey follows the rules. As for the specifics, noone's perfect. Heck, I've forgotten to restock my meds now and then, since I so very rarely use them, but I don't make anyone do extra work on my account. Usually I just offer to buy a partial stack from someone at an inflated price. If I were Falsey I'm not sure what I'd do. Actually, I think I'd just not get involved in the conversation, like I do when I really don't want to do what's being asked but I don't have it in me to be the bad guy and say no.

 

[hellstorm]

And that's why a summoner's job is on the back line HEALING, and not dealing damage.

you really need to learn what a hybrid job is.

 

[Bajaratt]

you really need to learn what a hybrid job is.

And you need to learn that just because a job can do something they're not supposed to be doing, and do a really shitty job of it, does not make them an actual hybrid job. Red mage is not a melee, and summoner is not a damage dealer.

 

[Shirai]

Speaking of exp and merit parties, Bajaratt is 100% right, summoner is most effective as a back line healer (read if played right, with competent preople they're more support then healing) job in most party setups.
Having them act as DDs only severely gimps out the exp per hour.
Which doesn't mean summoner can't actually play summoner there, they'll just need to adapt.

Probably once again threading forbidden ground....

 

[Myrrh]

And you need to learn that just because a job can do something they're not supposed to be doing, and do a really shitty job of it, does not make them an actual hybrid job. Red mage is not a melee, and summoner is not a damage dealer.

I love you....

Spoiler:

Still going to Nin lot your gear till I feel we're even for you jacking MY Mushroom Helm. Asshole

 

[hellstorm]

And you need to learn that just because a job can do something they're not supposed to be doing, and do a really shitty job of it, does not make them an actual hybrid job. Red mage is not a melee, and summoner is not a damage dealer.

That just it they are suppose to do what you say there not suppose to do. You need to learn that there is a lvl of balance that needs to be keeped. Hench why drk don't have strong nukes, Rdm have lower melee, smn has timers, and pup don't have asuran fist. Unfortanly SE did not forsee the black and white mind set of alot of many Americans. You are right though rdm is not just a melee it a support. A front line support, Summoner is a mid line support uses a attack then a buff. Don't you find it a little odd that SE would do the following.

The summoner job has undergone the following adjustments:

The summoner pet command Blood Pact has been divided into two categories

Blood Pact: Rage (Recast time: 1 minute)
Orders the avatar to use special attacks.

Blood Pact: Ward (Recast time: 1 minute)
Orders the avatar to use support abilities.

-Blood Pact will now receive different effects when the value added by equipment or merit points exceeds the skill cap for that level.
*Players can experience increased accuracy when using Blood Pact: Rage or lengthened effect durations when using Blood Pact: Ward. The length of the duration increased varies depending on which Blood Pact is used, but will not exceed 180 seconds.
*A player whose summoning magic skill is lower than the skill cap will not experience any penalties, such as a decrease in accuracy or shortened effect durations.
-Players will now also experience increases in skill when using the Blood Pact: Rage and Blood Pact: Ward pet commands.

2007 fan fest
Red Mage
Considering magic to allow RDM to move up to front lines.

Giving both jobs offensive buffs, yet why they could have easyly have given rdm a magic atk of acc buff to improve there "skill" they have but no they decided to gring us to the front line.

Smn could have easally given the war and rage, but no they chenged acc to.

Drk could have gotten more abilities but nope they got more dark magic spells.

I could go on and on in the flaws of your theory.