Health care discussion

[Cerato]

The fun part is that most of the people who don't have health care don't have it because they value other things more than health care and by stealing money from the earners of the world they are able to have cable and health care.

And that is what I disagree with and why I responded to your previous post. You seem to think the majority of people who don’t have health care are moochers. I don’t buy it. I’m not talking about people who qualify for public assistance. I’m talking about the vast number of working class folks denied health care due to pre-existing conditions, or whose employers don’t offer it or enough hours to qualify, or their insurance dropped them because hit their lifetime cap of coverage. There are a myriad of circumstances that explain why people don’t have health insurance and I don’t think it’s because they’re all spending their time blabbing on their cell phones and watching Weeds.

Morcheeba mentioned “a better quality of life overall.” And that is what I want us to strive for. I don’t think a better quality of life can be achieved without access to good health care. It’s also why helping pay the salaries of the police and fire department doesn’t bother me even though I rarely (if ever) require their services. They contribute to said quality of life. My neighbor being sick or having his house burn to the ground will affect me either directly or indirectly, either way; it’s not in anyone’s best interests.

 

[Keryan]

So you are ok with covering people who refuse to get a job? Let put it this way..... 25 MILLION people go out to get a doctor.....there are no new increase in doctors. How again do you get in to see you doctor who now has HUNDREDS of new patients. You get LONG lines and poorer care. Supplies would be more limited. Where will the money for the needed new hospitals, doctors, nurses and supplies come from? There is a shortage of teaching nurses as is. It takes a good 8 years for someone to be a doctor. anywhere from 2-6 years for nurses. So you would have a shortage of them for a VERY long time. Things should be done in a way that will not endanger people.

One of the ways they plan to pay for it is to reduce the medicaid reinbursments. That means they are planning to not pay Doctors for care they give. It may sound nice to you, but it bothers me. Doctors will stop taking in people with medicaid. Not like it would effect you. Enable people to get medical. Do not force it upon them esp. when there has been nothing done to prepare the market for such a large increase. 8/10 people I have spoken to who have universal health care hate it. They cite long lines, months before they could even see their doctor. Look it up. Cases all over the world. You think it will cost only a little? On of the eastcoast states has universal care. It has been well beyond budget and mounting expenses every year. How about do the job correctly and stop rushing it. Every single thing this President has rushed has bombed. Take the time to do it right. Put all of the bill writers into the same room. Get random health care people off the streets. Who knows you just might get something more workable.

 

[Keryan]

I’m talking about the vast number of working class folks denied health care due to pre-existing conditions, or whose employers don’t offer it or enough hours to qualify, or their insurance dropped them because hit their lifetime cap of coverage. There are a myriad of circumstances that explain why people don’t have health insurance.

Morcheeba mentioned “a better quality of life overall.” And that is what I want us to strive for. I don’t think a better quality of life can be achieved without access to good health care. It’s also why helping pay the salaries of the police and fire department doesn’t bother me even though I rarely (if ever) require their services. They contribute to said quality of life. My neighbor being sick or having his house burn to the ground will affect me either directly or indirectly, either way; it’s not in anyone’s best interests.

Everyone agrees there needs to be reform, yet does universal health have to be the sole answer. Why must the whole thing be done at once? Why not focus on sections and fiix as the money will allow? If you can not afford to fix the whole house at one time, you fix room by room when you have the money. Simple budgeting. ATM the governemt is spend 30k per house in taxes. They are taking in 17k per house. Do you see the problem? Raise taxes too much and you kill the ecnomy. No money to spend, no people have jobs.

 

[Morcheeba]

Pfft that sounds really extreme. I live just outside Toronto Ontario. One of the largest cities in Canada. I may have to wait hours to get in for stitches if I cut my finger, but usually that's due to someone with a possible life threatening situation. And I may have to wait a couple days to see my doctor. But I have the choice to then go to a walk-in clinic and am still covered when/if I need a prescription.

Let me tell you something, and this is maybe personal but I think it may give you a better idea where I'm coming from.

I suffer from bladder infections. Some people may laugh but when you get them as severely as me you fucking know what I'm on about. I have had up to 14-15 in a year and a couple have sent me to emerg. So if my doctor is booked for 2 days and I cannot wait I walk my ass into a clinic and wait my agonizing hour to see a doctor, but I will see one. I know what I'm there for, I know my body well enough by now that there is no bullshit I'm going to have to go through. Just prescribe me a couple abdominal pain killers and the antibiotics and I'll be off. If I had to also worry whether I had the cash to pay not only that doctor but the $100 worth of meds to make me feel better, allow me to function well, I may not get the help I need.

Now ask me honestly whether I care that I may be paying for others to also get assistance. And ask me just how bad the waits really are. How difficult it is to see my doctor.

Morons go to emerg with a cold. I see my doctor when I need to. I go at least once a year for a regular physical which is kinda important. And I go when I have concerns and questions. But if something MAJOR happens, and I go to the hospital, I'm not going to die because they don't have the staff they need. We may be short but priorities are taken care of. If you want to be at the front of the queue because you can afford it and work for a living well.. christ. Compassion in this case could go far for your country.

Actually, it sounds like you are scared of the concept, not just concerned.

 

[Keryan]

Long post~

How long has Canada had this universal care? You are talking about placing 25 MILLION people under medical who have no doctors in a very short time. Where will they go? Hospitals in places are already running at near max pateint capacity. Where will these new people go? When I had my youngest son, the hospital I was at is the largest in the state. It was FULL. Your doctor had to call ahead just to see IF they could take you. When my daughter had Seizures in school, within four hours we had answers. Within 24 we had proof and a plan of action. Her Doctor filled out all papers needed for her to be seen by Doctors out of insurance agreement. Eerything was handled in a very responsible way. You place 24 MILLION under the same and you have doctors who for atleast the next 10 years will not have much time to talk to and get to know each person. The nurses who are already over worked will become even more so. The QUAILTY of care will drop and people WILL die. They will die simply because there are not enough doctors, so they will have to choose who they can treat and when. There are real concerns to just giving people medical without dealing with the small facts of enough caretakers.

You can not just wave a magic wand and say BAM! you all have medical and expect it to work. Only retarded idiots would push through something <that no one understands{not even the writers}>in a matter of months. Is it wrong to want them to do it right? Where are the programs to train more nuses and Doctors? Well you want governement run hospitals... check out some here that were told to shut down due to poor upkeep by the government. We have cited programs run by the government that are failing. These programs have been around decades. How does it make people scared to want to know HOW this is to be done? Why is it wrong for people to want to have choice? This country is based on our freedom. In just ONE YEAR we have seen 700 BILLION to banks, 800 BILLION to stimulus, A down payment of even more BILLIONS to medical already. As you can see they have already spent enough to pay for this program. Please understand that EVERY MAJOR SYSTEM run by the government is FAILING! These are/been in states of BANKRUPCY <sp> even before the economy took a turn down.

Just wondering lets say you and your doctor have issues, how fast can you get a new one? I can see a new doctor the same day, and recieve care without any issues. What is the ratio of patients to doctors in canada? I bet each providence is different. YOURS might be good to you, but that is not ALL of canada.

Many Candaians come here to the USA for treatment. They actually had on the news about a woman from canada who had to take a 2nd morgage on her house to come here for cancer treatment. Canada told her she had to wait 6 months to see a doctor for her treatable cancer. She came here and was told if she had waited she would be dead.

We want any health care reform to be done in a responsible manner. Not another rush job. We are more afraid that they will fuck it up. This issue will in a very real sense kill people. They rush it just for politics~ then we die. They go about and set up everything to insure that we the people will not be tossed into a chaotic hell hole~ then we live. All I can think of when people scream about this is, t had I been forced to wait, my daughter would be dead due to the amount of seizure activity she had. When you are not that ONE person who the system fails, you never think about it.

 

[Morcheeba]

Well there is approx 15 million in Ontario alone and this is the Health Care System I am familiar with. Not to mention Ontario is the most populated Province in Canada.

As I had said previously the coverage differs from Province to Province and as it stands EVERY Ontario citizen can have a family doctor. If they are unsure who is accepting new clients they can get a list of local doctors from the Hospital. I have had a list faxed to me on a couple occasions for friends. Unfortunately my doctor isn't taking on new clients. Also, I do not have to go to the Hospital to see my doctor. Maybe I'm not understanding what you said but does every doctor in the states work out of a hospital?

There are walk-in clinics every where here for people who feel they cannot wait a day or two to see a doctor.

As for as the seizure example goes, had she been brought to a hospital here she would have had answers within hours, they would have had all the proper tests taken, MIR's CT scans etc until they figured out the cause. And that would not have cost you or anyone elses parents had it happened to their child an out of pocket expense.

What if you had no health insurance and that had happened? What if you had no credit or any way of getting ANY attention in the matter. Yea you'd be turned out on your ass.

People are not suffering here like you insinuate. Like I said coverage differs from Province to Province. But we are taken care of.

As far as the Canadian lady who chose to go down instead of waiting 6 months for treatment. I would tend to not believe it was quite like that. People have a choice of getting a 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc opinions. If her doctor said chemo would start in a month or 2 it's probably because that doctor didn't believe she would pass before that. And if she didn't like the answer she was getting she should have made some noise about it. She could have demanded she see someone else. You know there are a number of specialists. Not just one for every doctor. I waited 3 weeks to see a specialist between the visit with my doctor and the day I could get in. Before leaving the specialists I had an appointment booked for a procedure at the hospital, lets see, ahh 2.5 weeks after I saw him. Next week I go in for a procedure.

They actually had on the news about a woman from canada who had to take a 2nd morgage on her house to come here for cancer treatment. Canada told her she had to wait 6 months to see a doctor for her treatable cancer. She came here and was told if she had waited she would be dead.

I would be very curious to know where she lived. And maybe if you mis-understood the story. No one would ever have to wait 6 months to see a doctor. That is complete rubbish. Like I said maybe 6 months before starting chemo but that differs from case to case based on the specialists idea of how terminal the cancer is. And 6 months is still a stretch and very unlikely.

Fuck my mother got skin cancer twice. She had her surgeries within a week or two of the lab results coming back confirming the melanoma.

My doctor has sent me to the hospital from her office for emergency surgery, called ahead to the hospital to advise them I was coming. Within the hour I was in surgery.

There is nothing for us to bitch about.

Every Canadian citizen HAS a doctor or CAN have a doctor but is probably just too lazy to find out who's taking them. Or they just don't give a shit and go to walk-in's when they feel they need to seek medical attention.

It works. It works here. WTF more do you want me to say? That I'm lying?

E- Also, the States are now airing Canadian news? Since when? I find it interesting that you are hearing cases that locals here are not hearing. We have some of the most unbiased news stations I have seen. It doesn't surprise me that the broadcast you say you saw was an ego boost for the USA stating a cousin to the north required your services.

Having access to see your family doctor on regular intervals helps PREVENT finding terrible concerns later in life.

Someone on here said earlier they hadn't been to see a doctor in a number of years because he/she felt fine and healthy. Without having regular physicals which btw catch many ailments in their early stages possibly saving lives or long periods of suffering it would cost a hell of a lot more in the long run by waiting it out only to find you have some terminal illness and you cannot be saved by way of treatments. The positives here far outweigh the negatives.

If I had ovarian cancer I would know much earlier than if I were to continue on my merry way waiting for the pain to help me identify that there is a problem. That being said I would have a much better chance at beating it and the health care system would not suffer a great lose with my treatment.

And quality of life in general comes from the knowledge that we as Canadians can have regular check ups without the worry of out of pocket expenses. We do not have to miss a couple years here and there because we were not lucky enough to get Health Care from our employers.

This reminds me, for the past 3 years I have not had any benefits with any employer. I have been working the entire time and contributing through my taxes. I have missed maybe 1 month out of those 3 years while actively looking for employment. Lucky my b/f has benefits otherwise I would not have gotten in to the dentist when I needed to. That being said, what if we DID have your system. To this day I would not have coverage and all those past trips to the doctors probably wouldn't have happened. And what of my procedure next week and the tests etc leading up to it. Yeah, quality of life is good.

 

[Keryan]

There are clinics. You seem to fail to understand the amount of people they plan to squeeze into them. No new Doctors to take them in. No new nurses. No new clinics. Perhaps the doctors should stand outside at the park and examine people.

You might not have issues with your universal care, but others do. Just like here people have issues. If you go to the ER here even with no medical, they are not allowed to toss you out. Most people think of seizures as unimportant. Sure she'd get seen, but lets say there are no neurologists taking new pateints. Well she would be shit out of luck. Oh send her to a clinic which most likely will not have a specialist? Which of the thousands of medications will they put her on without knowing anything? Would it be the cheapest? What if the doctor changes her meds off what the other doctor did? Some things you can not just stop. Would there be interactions? Would they have time to explain everything to you? Mind you Many seizure medications have side effects like suicidal feeling. Lost of appitite, loss of bone strength. Would the doctor at the clinic even give a damn since they would have so many other people to get to? Clear the person out to get to the next. You have to have the doctors for patients to see. You never did say if you are allowed to change doctors and see a new one the same day.

So lets recap. You say it is ok to tax everyone to give universal health care when the country is going bankrupt. After all it will go to care for the people. It is ok to put 25,000,000 under medical with no facilities, no doctors, no nurses to accomidate them. It is ok to create long waiting lists of MONTHS just to cover 25,000,000 people. It is ok to PAY for the health care of ILLEGAL immigrants who broke into the country and do not pay taxes. MILLIONS of illegals would gain medical on the back of the tax payers without paying a dime to the system. Lastly you agrere that it is ok to kill our elderly because thats where the president plans to pull money from. He will reduce drasticly <sp> the amount the government will reimburse Doctors for the medicaid patients they treat. You agree that it is perfectly fine to place a price tag on peoples life.

Understand that for ATLEAST 10 years There will not be enough train medical providers to treat all these people. Dear god LOOK at HOW they plan to do it. There is nothing in the bill that would provide the schools, training or buildings needed. They say the thing will be paid by savings.....They can not even say HOW it will be paid. They made it clear they plan to cut reimburstments to medicaid. Meaning Doctors will not get paid for treating medicade paitents. This medical plan will not cover the medicade people. This is not even a true universal health care. Price tags will be into the TRILLIONS.

You can get for about 500-700 with no help from employers health for your WHOLE family. MOST americans could pay for their medical IF they did not have the cable, net, cell, tv, games that they enjoy. Most work places will cover a large portion of the medical as is. A simple tax incenttive would be cheaper and in the end allow a larger number of legal citizens to recieve medical of their choice.

We do not NEED this spending when there is no money to pay for it. Answer responsibly to my questions. Should right now be the time to create a flawed not true universal health system? When there is no money for it, when no tort reform has occured? When there are not enough trained professonals? When there is currently a shortage of nurses and training nurses <teachers>. The US hires nurses from out of country to meet the demand because we can not train enough. Look at the issues from a realistic stand point. Would this really improve the quality of life when as is there already is a shortage of people to care for our sick? When we can answer in a positive way these questions then we should work on universal care. Until then we need to make fixes as we can.

 

[Halifirien]

So to recap, some of you are saying medical care is a privilege and not a right. Screw anyone who's poor and can't afford to live. "Government bureaucrats" making decisions is bad, but "corporate bureaucrats" whose only concerns are balance sheets and not keeping you alive are good. Rationing is only acceptable when an insurance company does it. Everyone can afford insurance, but even if they have it and end up bankrupt anyway because of our fucked system... well, them's the breaks.

Yeah, I'm a liberal. I want universal healthcare in this country. It'd be nice if that's what the Dems were working on right now, but I'll be waiting a long time before they get their thumbs out of their asses and act like real progressives on the issue.

(Keryan, to answer your earlier question, since I missed it: I don't care about the organic foods guy or the boycott. I don't care about organic foods. I view that as mostly hippie-dippy bullshit. Pesticides and preservatives are fine by me.)

 

[Morcheeba]

Most people think of seizures as unimportant. Sure she'd get seen, but lets say there are no neurologists taking new pateints. Well she would be shit out of luck. Oh send her to a clinic which most likely will not have a specialist?

I did not once say send her to a clinic. I only go to walk-ins when I know what is wrong with me. Fact is majority of the doctors working in walk-in clinics are 'pen to paper', I highly suggest people get family doctors and only use walk-ins for 'emergency' appointments when you are pretty certain the medication you need. That and the jokers that freak over the common cold.

Which of the thousands of medications will they put her on without knowing anything? Would it be the cheapest? What if the doctor changes her meds off what the other doctor did? Some things you can not just stop. Would there be interactions? Would they have time to explain everything to you? Mind you Many seizure medications have side effects like suicidal feeling. Lost of appitite, loss of bone strength.

I don't know exactly how the doctors in the States are schooled but no general practitioner is going to prescribe seizure medication without sending the patient to a specialist.

So lets recap. You say it is ok to tax everyone to give universal health care when the country is going bankrupt.

I am defending MY Health Care system by weighing the pros and cons, have I lost you?

After all it will go to care for the people. It is ok to put 25,000,000 under medical with no facilities, no doctors, no nurses to accomidate them. It is ok to create long waiting lists of MONTHS just to cover 25,000,000 people. It is ok to PAY for the health care of ILLEGAL immigrants who broke into the country and do not pay taxes. MILLIONS of illegals would gain medical on the back of the tax payers without paying a dime to the system. Lastly you agrere that it is ok to kill our elderly because thats where the president plans to pull money from. He will reduce drasticly <sp> the amount the government will reimburse Doctors for the medicaid patients they treat. You agree that it is perfectly fine to place a price tag on peoples life.

We don't have the issue of illegal immigrants like the states do. That is a non-issue. Doctors here get paid per appointment at your family doctors and per prescription at a walk-in. BTW, Doctors will both not give a shit and care deeply, it matters not if they were all pulling in $200k a year. You take the good with the bad.

And I'm not even addressing the multi-coloured paragraph, that just hurt my eyes.

You can get for about 500-700 with no help from employers health for your WHOLE family.

And what exactly would that cover? There would certainly be limitations. Are you people not familiar with insurance companies? Do you not know by now they are the fucking legal mafia for christ sake. They are out to make money, NOT pay out claims. They will avoid it as best they can and they will tie you up in soo much red tape you cannot breath. But good luck with that, you may want to have a lawyer go over your plans before you sign.

So to recap, some of you are saying medical care is a privilege and not a right. Screw anyone who's poor and can't afford to live. "Government bureaucrats" making decisions is bad, but "corporate bureaucrats" whose only concerns are balance sheets and not keeping you alive are good.

THANK YOU


I'm not going to pretend I know what kind of state the US is in. I mentioned earlier if you can't depend/trust your government you probably would be best to opt out. But if both options were available that would be that much better. The issue at hand then would be the quality doctors offer paying patients over government paid patients. That would be fun no?

And yes btw, if for some obscure reason I got pissed at my doctor I could see another THAT DAY. You simply walk your ass into a walk-in clinic. And I'm sure if you were insistent enough you could demand to see another GP in that same office your family doctor works in. Other wise you get a list of doctors accepting new patients and you set yourself up. If you are in to see your doctor for urgent reasons perhaps the best place was emerg to begin with.

Now if you haven't absorbed the points I've made thus far regarding MY health care system then I'm afraid it's a lost cause.

Implement it, don't implement it. Let many die because your country couldn't control your boarders, whatever. I don't give a shit, just don't bring your ass up here to capitalize on our health care because it's not good enough.

 

[Dejavu]

 

[Morcheeba]

Shopping around for deals on health care? That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

Health Care providers should be paid a capped amount based on the profession itself. Not the competition. There shouldn't be a competition.

Laser eye surgery is not a need. It's a want, and wants are not covered here and it would not be smart for them to be covered there either. Cosmetic surgeries are not covered here and should not be covered there. But regular check ups and ailments should be covered.

You cannot walk into a pharmacy with bronchitis knowing you have bronchitis and just ask to buy the prescription. No you have to be prescribed by a physician. So why should that cost you 2x?

Insurance doesn't cover everything, much like I said. Health Care covers what insurance here doesn't. And it's not necessary to have health insurance here. If you cannot afford it or are shafted by your employer and they do not offer it but you get cancer, or suffer a heart attack or just break a leg you do not have to concern yourself with possibly losing your house or taking out a loan that in your life time you will never beable to pay back.

How many lives is it going to destroy in the long run? If most people were to go for regular annual check ups do you know how many major ailments that would help prevent??!? That, in the long run could help cut costs. Yet still save many people the pain and suffering.

"Canada has universal healthcare, a budget surplus, no war, and financially sound banks, not to mention Canadian Bacon"

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm

The beginning of coverage

It was not until 1946 that the first Canadian province introduced near universal health coverage. Saskatchewan had long suffered a shortage of doctors, leading to the creation of municipal doctor programs in the early twentieth century in which a town would subsidize a doctor to practice there. Soon after, groups of communities joined to open union hospitals under a similar model. There had thus been a long history of government involvement in Saskatchewan health care, and a significant section of it was already controlled and paid for by the government. In 1946, Tommy Douglas' Co-operative Commonwealth Federation government in Saskatchewan passed the Saskatchewan Hospitalization Act, which guaranteed free hospital care for much of the population. Douglas had hoped to provide universal health care, but the province did not have the money.

In 1950, Alberta created a program similar to Saskatchewan's. Alberta, however, created Medical Services (Alberta) Incorporated (MS(A)I) in 1948 to provide prepaid health services. This scheme eventually provided medical coverage to over 90% of the population.[12]

In 1957, the federal government passed the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act to fund 50% of the cost of such programs for any provincial government that adopted them. The HIDS Act outlined five conditions: public administration, comprehensiveness, universality, portability, and accessibility. These remain the pillars of the Canada Health Act.

By 1961, all ten provinces had agreed to start HIDS Act programs. In Saskatchewan, the act meant that half of their current program would now be paid for by the federal government. Premier Woodrow Lloyd decided to use this freed money to extend the health coverage to also include physicians. Despite the sharp disagreement of the Saskatchewan College of Physicians and Surgeons, Lloyd introduced the law in 1962 after defeating the Saskatchewan Doctors' Strike in July.

 

[Cerato]

Funny how they (in that video) kept saying, "We don't expect someone else to pay for our groceries, why do we expect someone to pay for health care?" To borrow from Halifirien's post, I think eating is a right not a privilege. If someone can't afford to buy food, they should get assistance. It's sad to me how cut throat people are regarding anyone but them. "Share it fairly, but don't take a slice of my pie...."

I'm afraid though, Halifirien is right about the democrats not pushing for real universal health care. If anything passes, it'll be a watered down, half-assed version, if that.

 

[Keryan]

"Canada has universal healthcare, a budget surplus, no war, and financially sound banks, not to mention Canadian Bacon"

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm

You quote on what they did to provide the doctors is what the main point of my disagreement with what the Dems are pushing. They are not setting up anything. The are just trying to enact a bill with no foundation. IF they set it up to start in segments allowing for training of needed medical professionals and clinics people would be more open. They are Trying to create an umberlla bill. They have even said they want to pass it, then just make amendments to fix it. This deals with the lives of hundreds of millions of americans. How many will die while they putt about ammending a broken bill.

This administration has forced multiple bills through without time to even read them. Would you sign a paper that requires you to pay our large amounts of money without reading it first? Canada has had 60 years to build a system. Obama and a large number of dems want to install a system that at the current rate we can not afford to reach the ideals you have in a matter of months. This bill does not even deal with a quarter of what is currently wrong with the medical insurance field.

I go to the doctors for check ups. I have to be extremly ill to go to them with a cold. I am talking leasions in your throat and needed antibiotics. Even my children only go for check ups and if a fever lasts more than 3 days or they get to 104. In all I would say MY family pre kid having seizures saw the doctors no more than 4 times a year. BTW I am an indepentant voter. I vote for who I think will do the better job.

Most people in the argument fail to understand that it is the shady responses we get to how it will be paid for that makes us stop. It is looking at how much the US is already in debt. Can we really afford to do this? Would it be better to fix things and build up to what the dems call their Universal health care. Please keep in mind this will in no way cover all americans. They are trying to cover 25 million. We have well over 350 MILLION americans. If this would truly cover all 350 million americans, supply the needed doctors/nurses/staff/buildings I doubt anyone would be against it. Yet at this time we do not have the money, nor the trained professionals. To pass this would be irresponsible, and lead it to fail. Something of this scale should be done with as much care as possible due to the sheer number of people it will effect.
If this was so important, why didn't we pay for this rather than bail out banks and auto companies and some stimulus package in which 2/3 was pork barrel spending. Obama says this is key to recovery of economy, but it sure was not treated that way at the start. All we Americans want is for this to be done the right way. Real research, real planning and foundations set. Look and see if infact there is a way to provide care by fixing the current system. So far all we have is pushing and forcing from one side just to meet the presidents deadlines.
As for people who say health care should be a right... You are not refused medical care when you go to the ER. You are given options to getting medical. Can't afford it....get a 2nd job, find a job that provides, speak to doctors about payment plans, give up on those 100 dollar cell phones and cable. I go to the dentist and I have to pay cash out of pocket. They say fixing the tooth will be 1.3k, then break it down into payments I can afford. Will universal dental be next? After all good dental reduces the risk of heart attack, infection and stroke. You can come up with any reason to say something should be a right. It does not mean it is though.
There are many ways they can fix the costs to people with medical. They just have to be willing to take the time to do it. Fix things, then see what the costs would be to expand sevices. You don't add on a new room to your house to a rotting beam and expect it to work. You fix it first.

A little math 350 million, 700 is usual for family coverage. so average family of 4 <you can have a larger family and it stays 700>. So 87,500,000 families Out of pocket would cost 61,250,000,000. This is actually probaly alot more than it would actually cost, but this is if no one had medical through work. The president is talking about covering only 1/14 of the population. He is pushing covering only 1/14th of the population, and can not balance the budget to pay for it. Claiming it will only cost 1 trillion <not counting intrest. Intrest could raise it over 9 trillion in 10 years> as you can see is way off using simple math. Let them show us the hard facts, back up the numbers they claim, and let everyone see each step. This is after all supposed to be a transparent administration.

 

[Halifirien]

Most people in the argument fail to understand that it is the shady responses we get to how it will be paid for that makes us stop. It is looking at how much the US is already in debt. Can we really afford to do this?

We didn't have any problems laying out that kind of money we couldn't afford when it came to invading Afghanistan and Iraq. Deficit spending only seems to be a worry when we're trying to heal people instead of kill them.

I didn't really have a problem with Afghanistan, mind you. Iraq was a fucktard mistake. If we hadn't followed the cowboy's fantasies of glory into Iraq, we'd have already saved enough to pay for this.

 

[Keryan]

If we did not give trillions in aid to people who want to kill us we could pay for it too. If we sent illegals back to their home countries we could afford it too, damn bleeding heart dems.

 

[Dejavu]

See... at least i'm a consistent asshole.. i am against the spending on both wars.. foreign aid to anyone, and health care.

 

[Morcheeba]

I'm not saying you're in the wrong for wanting a thorough thought process and efficient implementation of the system.

What I don't get is why people say NO period to the thought of a Universal Health Care when it has worked so well here. Yea there may be waiting lists but every case is gauged based on priority.

Living in this country it would be a sad day if we disassembled the system we have in place to replace it with Private Sectors only option. Every Canadian, and every American imo SHOULD be considered equal when it comes to Health Care. In the sense that if you want to look at it even from a communist point-of-view at least EVERYONE shares the same quality of care regardless of how much you make.

Someone who happens to win the lottery is no more important a life than mine or my neighbours.

If it were equal across the board at least you could sleep at night knowing ALL your friends and family are taken care of.

I have had a girlfriend out of work for over a year. And before that she worked contract after contract, contracts do NOT offer any benefits. You have no options. Many of us live cheque to cheque without frivolous spending. I do not own a cell phone, I cancelled it back in February because it cost too much. I do have cable and internet though. Either way you cannot speak for all Canadians or Americans in saying they have the same luxuries majority of the population has because that would be an un-truth. It would just be silly to assume it's that way.

 

[Keryan]

The issue is that a large number do. My neighbors recieve welfare, yet both parents have cell phones, direct TV, and 2 cars. They are not the only people who would spend the money that could go to medical on luxuries. Many people do not understand the value of money. Many do not place 10% of their pay into savings. They spend it. This is why many people are angry. A good portion CAN afford medical, but choose not to. Why should it be provided for them when they do not value it enough to get it. Upon giving it to them will they use it responsibly? Sad to say in the states that offer full medical coverage, the programs run way over budget. It is not that we do not want it, it is that we have seen proof that as it stands we can not make it work. Who knows maybe in a year or 10, when people sorta grow up more.

 

[Morcheeba]

Keryan, this post is not specifically directed at you, I have addressed some of your points. This is my opinion towards this kind of mentality in general.

The problem is not that there are problems. The problem is expecting otherwise and thinking that having problems is a problem.”
- Theodore Rubin

It would be quite foolish to think any system you decide to stick with will not have its problems.

So my question is this... why concern yourself with what your neighbours choose to do with their money if you are satisfied that you and your family will be taken care of? That all of your loved ones regardless of their status can get the help they need when they need it? Why not remind yourself that you are not only helping families that are in unfortunate situations, or that have been dealt a bad hand, but that you are also helping your cousin, aunt or uncle if anything terrible were to happen, like they lose their job and no longer have coverage under their employers benefits umbrella.

There will always be people who rape the system and take advantage no matter what you do to bring it to light. Welfare will always be hit or miss with honest individuals and lazy fucks who refuse to contribute.

So why assume majority of the population does not deserve access to decent health care? You cannot, you are not in the position to say too many can afford proper health care.

Then of course there is the matter of no matter what plan you choose or how much you're willing to sink into the pockets of these insurance companies, they will never 'want' to ensure your health and they will never provide all aspects of health care.

E- To add, I know our population differs significantly to yours, but we have all kinds of freeloaders.

Ask me how I feel about the immigrants not only gaining access in massive numbers to our country, but getting hand outs like NEW homes that many hard working Canadians born and bred cannot afford. Or how they get jobs handed to them when they gain entry while many committed Canadians walk their asses to Labour Ready (temp agency) for 4 am to line up to possibly get an $8p/hr paying job for the day so they can get some grub at a food bank. Not to mention that because they cram a number in one house hold they are happy to work for ridiculous rates because there are so many working in one house.

They get access to our health care through immigration and they are often the morons clogging up emerge. What I DO enjoy is knowing that if they want to freak over every cough their kids have they can enjoy sitting in emerge for 8 hours while actual priority cases are taken in.

BUT.. these are just some of our problems. And although many of us know they exist (including the government) we are not in the position to do anything about it, but most of us are very pleased with our Health Care.

 

[Dejavu]

I laughed... then i realized he has been a congressman since 1973 and cried a little.

Then i realized that this guy is the chairman of the health care committee in congress and now i am scared again. With people like this running the show yea i think i like not having health insurance. Also this committee handles social security so it kinda makes sense why that program is bankrupt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_Ways_and_Means_Subcommittee_on_Health