"He's here to offer 'assistance healing.'"

Peregrine said:
There's no difference between a static and a powerleveling.

WHAT?

Ok, look. I am a huge defender of powerlevels for lower level players in certain conditions and situations. I have powerleveled people to level 30 before. (in a party, not solo, and they were linkshell members, if you want to bitch me out for this take it to messages because its complicated) But look, there is no reason for a person to powerlevel someone at THAT HIGH OF A LEVEL.

Peregrine, i respect you, but some of the things you say and the points you make are just ridiculous. I'm not gonna touch on all of them right now because I'm at work and I don't have time to write out that much, but I will later. I just want to let you know that your reasons and your arguments are SO circumstancial that they DO NOT in any way represent the WHOLE of this game.

Not to mention the statement above.. A static is a party of COMPETENT players.. powerleveling is someone helping someone get by because they are either trying to reach a level really fast (which, in this case doesnt matter, i fail to see how a pl at that lvl is really going to be beneficial) or they are incompetant.. do you understand that relationship?

I would have left the party too. Especially as a WHM. And dont come down on him for leaving pt because it might be the only xp hte drg might get that week. Come on. They had a PL. The pl could have easily handled that pt by themselves with a nin tank - its freaking pointless to be a whm in a pt with a PL. Whm is boring and tedious enough as it is - they could have found another DD to fill in teh spot to make things go faster.

gross.
 
I agree, esp at that level. I left a pty in quifim as a whm due to a power level. I had more than enough mp, astrals, smn sub, pies, drinks, shrooms, etc. and had no problem using or conserving it. What ticked me off is every time I went to heal, so did the PL meaning I just wasted mp throwing out a Cure II when he threw one out with a shorter cast time and mine did nothing. I even asked if he's going to PL..chose a player and thats it so I can actually play and practice my job on the others. Compromise didn't work so I left.
 
Peregrine said:
Again, what you all don't like about powerleveling is that it doesn't include you and doesn't give a rip about some gunner's standards about what should and should not work. It simply does work. It is the general population's solution to imbalance. You know what--I'll take their solution over the other one quite frankly. It's just plain more fun. I went through qufim as a warrior tanking with a great axe while berserked. Yes, that's ghetto. Yes, that's stupid. But boy did the mobs die fast. Powerleveling is used by people you just LOVE to look down on from your sky perch. The only thing wrong with powerleveling is its perception.

Powerleveling is the infield at the derby. While the high society sips their julips up in the stands, some drunk topless woman sees the same race and wins the same money down in the field. They just do it a different way. You know you want to be that drunk topless woman sometimes. Sometimes there's nothing wrong with a drunk topless woman.

Ok USUALLY there's nothing wrong with a drunk topless woman.

Strike that. There's nothing wrong with a drunk topless woman. I mean powerleveling.
I have been in power leveled parties. It was nice sometimes, but never needed and more often than not, one or two of the members were idiots or noobs, but they got exp anyways. Your derby example is more confusing than helping you, I fail to see how you considering people not liking powerleveling to a drunk topless woman. Powerleveling isn't an "alternative leveling technique," in case you haven't been to the dunes lately, at least half of the parties there get powerleveled.

I have also powerleveled people before, always LS members or friends, and it was usually while I was lfg. It was also for the most part from 1-10 or in the dunes. So you see, I've been in all 3 positions, recieving and giving powerleveling, and not being powerleveled; so I'm not some "uninformed jealous elitist" as you seem to try to make your opposition out to be.

There's nothing wrong with it's perception. It's a quick way to get past some sucky levels of your job, but the downsides often outweigh the good from it. People don't get as much time to learn about the basics of their jobs in parties, tanks often miss out on skills (evasion, shield block, parry, etc), some won't learn how to properly play their jobs in non-powerleveled parties. None of that comes with a static.

You still have yet to prove how being in a static/cannon could make someone suck in a normal party. I can understand you being used to some people's play style, but the game isn't complicated enough that you'd suck in an ordinary party solely due to being in a static. More than likely, anyone who sucks because they just got out of a static, sucked before they went into the static. Even the assumption that you'd only be familiar with 1 person's play style is flawed, since at most you'd be used to their macros' calls and 1 skillchain to do. Neither of those is a major reason why you would suck in a normal party.

By your logic, and I use the term loosely, I should be claiming all drk's are gimped because they didn't have the gear or do the damage of Meximan(One word: Insane); that all SAM's suck if they weren't as good as Alyssan was; or that any WAR/NIN who refuses to tank is a wimp because Mithe did it. I'm not claiming any of that, because it's dumb and pointless. We were all in a shortlived static(No RDM's), and it didn't effect our play style for random parties in the slightest. Mithe, Meximan and I were in a semi-static for 2 weeks before that, just because we'd keep getting each other for our parties.

If you're going to make an outrageous claim like powerleveling = statics, one which no one else agrees with, bring some proof. Giving an example, no matter how confusing, isn't proof. Examples are meant to clarify your position, so that people can better understand what you're talking about. So why don't you come up with some kind of proof that statics = powerleveling, then you might have some ground to stand on.
 
If you do not know how to do your job in the 50s you should probaly give up on life now. But hey, some people just suck at life, if they suck in the 50s odds are they will always suck.
 
What is with everyone claiming the occasional powerlvl prevents you from learning your job? :? Are we even playing the same game? There will be bad/incompetent players powerlvled or not. This game is extremely easy to learn how to play and everyone should know how to best play by 30 (with the exception of key abilities you get later like refresh/convert). Take a melee friend of mine for example. He was using another friends 75 rdm to help farm for gods, after an hour he had it down better than some rdms I party with 70+ and he has never played a mage job before. That is how simple this game is.

All powerlvling does is reduce downtime and create faster exp. It doesn't erase memories of how to play or create a learning block on how to do a job. It has just become so closely attached in our minds with valkurm noobs that it is has bad impressions following it. Of course a party should be able to get by without a pl, but it sure helps exp.
 
An occasional power level, no that won't effect how you learn your job. Some people don't just get an occasional power level though. I've gone through the dunes before getting a power level in 4/5 parties on 1 job, and then I got another one in qufim. All of those power levels were obtained by someone else, and several of them were on their first job.
 
Rones said:
All powerlvling does is reduce downtime and create faster exp. It doesn't erase memories of how to play or create a learning block on how to do a job.

It does more than that, though. It hinders your ability to develop your stats during the party. I get enhancing skillups from using haste, healing skillups for using regen and cures, and enfeebling skillups from using Slow and Paralyze. Those spells do not get used in a PL situation. If there's any one job out there that is as worthless as tits on a boar in a PL'd party, it's WHM.

And I was very clear to the party that I was more than willing to be replaced if they wanted to keep the PL. I wasn't being a dick about it and neither were they. I wasn't going to stand in the way of someone else's xp just because I didn't want to be a leech.

None of them objected, either.
 
All I can say on the subject is that I have declined being powerleveled. I tried it a couple times and just found that the majority of powerlevels (in my experience) end up with people taking on mobs too tough, the powerleveler ends up tanking the mob since s/he is having to heal so much, tanks aren't getting skillups on anything except on their weapon (no guard, parry, shield, ect), mages aren't forced to learn hate control, mp conservation, and are missing skillups that they otherwise would have gotten. I have also noticed that skillchains and magic burst are no longer a priority. All in all, from my experience, is that powerleveling just leads to sloppy play.

I'm sure that it is possible to do a proper PL but it isn't probable. Proper being the high level might handle links, party fights things level and group makeup appropriate, only when the tank is about to bite it the PL thows in a cure III or whatever to just keep him alive, the tank/s tank, the DD's inflict damage, the enfeeblers enfeeble, the healers heal, and the nukers nuke.

PL's cause for lazy play though because "I can do something that normally would be stupid because XXX job is powerleveling us". Just my opinion and I am sure some agree with me and some will disagree.

... and I am done. :D
 
Kurgon said:
All I can say on the subject is that I have declined being powerleveled. I tried it a couple times and just found that the majority of powerlevels (in my experience) end up with people taking on mobs too tough, the powerleveler ends up tanking the mob since s/he is having to heal so much, tanks aren't getting skillups on anything except on their weapon (no guard, parry, shield, ect), mages aren't forced to learn hate control, mp conservation, and are missing skillups that they otherwise would have gotten. I have also noticed that skillchains and magic burst are no longer a priority. All in all, from my experience, is that powerleveling just leads to sloppy play.

I'm sure that it is possible to do a proper PL but it isn't probable. Proper being the high level might handle links, party fights things level and group makeup appropriate, only when the tank is about to bite it the PL thows in a cure III or whatever to just keep him alive, the tank/s tank, the DD's inflict damage, the enfeeblers enfeeble, the healers heal, and the nukers nuke.

PL's cause for lazy play though because "I can do something that normally would be stupid because XXX job is powerleveling us". Just my opinion and I am sure some agree with me and some will disagree.

... and I am done. :D

I have also asked PLs to not PL. My first tanking experiences were nerfed because my brd wanted his high level rdm buddy to rush us. Then every party after that had a PL... so I ended up sucking as a ninja at level 22. I'm finally learning how to do it on my own with just a backup voker now. I'm rank 5, I have a lot of game experience, I have a ton of high level friends, I know how a lot of jobs *should* be played... but if I dont' get to experience it for myself I'm still going to suck. Ninja isn't an easy job with all the shadow counting, debuff ninjutsu, and equip swapping (I swap some VIT gear for evasion when all my shadows are gone and I have to straight up tank it).

I've seen a lvl 24 ninja tanking mobs for a party without Utsusemi before. When I asked why, he said he didn't have the scroll yet. "But it's ok, I have a PL." I swear that's what he said, and he sucked horribly.

The PL you mention, Kurgon, is my preferred type. This is the kind I give to parties when I'm bored. I like to call it "babysitting" more than "powerleveling." It works well and doesn't hurt anybody. I have people ask me if I'm PL'ing when I show up to a friend's party. It's really disappointing to hear complaints from them when I say "no." But at least I'm nice enough to tell them ahead of time instead of just letting them slack off to find that I'm not healing them.

Most recently, I've PL'd my friend from lvl 21 @ 900 tnl to lvl 22 with a small buffer. It's his first job, he's new to the game. He was soloing leeches and funguar in Jugner Forest with me healing him. The reason behind this was so he could get to lvl 22 so we could party together. Little PL's like this and the 'babysitting' above are acceptable. But saying "PL's don't gimp people" is usually wrong. And high-level PL's are just sad. With few exceptions, there should be no PL'ing beyond soloing.
 
It does more than that, though. It hinders your ability to develop your stats during the party. I get enhancing skillups from using haste, healing skillups for using regen and cures, and enfeebling skillups from using Slow and Paralyze. Those spells do not get used in a PL situation. If there's any one job out there that is as worthless as tits on a boar in a PL'd party, it's WHM.
I couldn't disagree more. When you have a pl helping with cures, that gives you more mp and time to cast spells like haste and enfeebles. The powerlvler can not cast enfeebles for you, and enfeebling the mob would make his job easier in addittion to faster kills with dia 2. You will still get your enhancing and enfeebling skill ups. As for healing skill ups, sure you might miss getting .1 skill for that party, but healing skill is worthless. At 75 whm I am still 40 points from capping my healing skill and it doesn't effect my cures. In addition, a whm is still useful in a pl party because a pler can not watch everyones hp at the same time, can not cast barfira against gobs, can not erase, can not curaga everyone.
mages aren't forced to learn hate control, mp conservation, and are missing skillups that they otherwise would have gotten.
Wait, are you describing a mage cannon party or a powerlvled party. And what skill ups are they missing?

Since when does hate control vanish when you have a powerlvler? Sure 10-30 that can be the case and is good for the pler to hold hate, but 50+ a 75 whm is not going to want to have hate while pling as our def is just that weak. In addition, the whm will likely have errant gear with all its -enimity preventing them from even taking hate. When I occassionaly powerlvl friends I prefer their tank to keep hate. That way I only have to watch one persons hp and let the parties mages handle the others small damage. This also allows the tank to get his few shield/parry skill ups.

This game is extremely simple. Don't make it out to be calculus 3 where you need loads of practice to understand it.
 
lol...after reading this whole thing...all i can say is... wow

Honestly, if you go back and read everything, both sides make very valid points in their arguements...

I am a 73whm, and was basically never PLd while exping with it. However, i also have many other jobs leveled, where i would get random PLs. I have not found this to "gimp" me in any way, or reduce my ability to function as said job. 52thf, im sure i got a few PLs along the way with it, although im not sure where, as it was a while ago. I can still line up SaTa very quickly, can still pull very well without linking, and can still effectively avoid aggro while pulling. I think if you dont know your job, its not a PLs fault.

I am also a 64rng, and have a static with this job. NIN, RNG, RNG, THF, BRD, SMN setup. I died a few times outside of the party, helping with stuff, and for other various reasons, and had to get a pick up pt to make up the lost xp. It was a less than perfect party, to say the least, and i was complemented by them for the damage and hate control. My static has not, in any way, made me less of a player. I think if you dont know your job, its not a statics fault.

There are different ways to look at anything.

Final Word: Good players are good players, whether they have a static, or have a PL doesnt matter. Neither of these will make a good player "gimped" or "unable to adjust."

Bad players, even if they are PLd up to lvl 30, or to lvl 50, will be without one eventually. They are forced to learn their job, or they dont make it very far.

People tell me "Whm is hard..." Honestly, from what ive seen, no job is "hard." In fact, every job is easy to "learn" for anyone who has any common sense. I just dont buy the whole "PL/Static makes bad players" I think bad players, are just naturally bad players...plain and simple.
 
Halifirien said:
Mostly I knew I'd be bored out of my fucking skull. :D
Heh, that can happen without a powerleveler. I've been in a ~73 party with a nin that barely took a hit. I'd get 2 hastes off and the fight would be over. I think that was the only time I melee'd in an exp party as a whm.
 
I think that needing a PL at lvl 55 is really sad...and the people in that party who made the PL necessary should either learn their jobs or give them up.

The only thing i think PL's screw up is the tanks skills at parrying blocking etc.. and i do not believe that a static screws up anything.

I think that bad players are not because of statics or PLing but because of bad breeding. That someone cannot pick up a game that honestly really is not that hard is no ones fault but their own..
 
I couldn't disagree more. When you have a pl helping with cures, that gives you more mp and time to cast spells like haste and enfeebles. The powerlvler can not cast enfeebles for you, and enfeebling the mob would make his job easier in addittion to faster kills with dia 2. You will still get your enhancing and enfeebling skill ups. As for healing skill ups, sure you might miss getting .1 skill for that party, but healing skill is worthless. At 75 whm I am still 40 points from capping my healing skill and it doesn't effect my cures. In addition, a whm is still useful in a pl party because a pler can not watch everyones hp at the same time, can not cast barfira against gobs, can not erase, can not curaga everyone.

I couldn't disagree more. Well, on one part of it anyway. If you say your cures are not affected by healing magic, you are oh so wrong. Ever used Cure V? pretty much uncapped healing power for the hate of a Cure III? it's a wonderfull spell, it really is. And you're not going to go as far as to say that one isn't affected by healing magic?

I can assure you that you won't be able to get it up to 700+ with a healing magic skill of 30 without a shitload of Mind gear, and I don't think that much mind gear exists.

Healing magic also do more then you think, it doesn't only affect how srong your cures are, but also the interruption rate of it.

And yes, I know. Just a bad WHM would only use Cure V in a fight. You should cast lower spells (Cure III is my main spell), but after a strong mob WS (eg. spiders versus a PLD tank) chain casting Cure III just doesn't cut it, and in those cases Cure V can be the differece between life and death. And you'd hate to be mocked about your Cure V only healing for 400, now wouldn't you?

And I try to keep my healing magic close to capped as a WHM, and I know it's very hard to do. At 71 it's only 244, but I still have my enhancing and enfeebling magic capped.

On another note, yes. You can skill up enhancing magic and enfeebling magic with a powerleveler, but that's not all you miss out on. It's called EXPERIENCE points for a reason, as in you're supposed to gain experience about your job. If you get PL'd from 1 to 50 as a WHM I doubt you'd have good knowledge around the details of your job (unless you've levled another job to that level before), like Bar spells. Not that most WHMes use them, but anyway <.<. Actually, I think Bar spells are the most underrated spells in the game, since most say it's worthless -.-
 
You are talking to the wrong person about cure 5. Just ask any of the pld's I party with and they will tell you how much I over use that spell. :lol: You are right that it is low hate and it has the highest hp cured per mp. The thing is, with very little +mnd gear and my healing skill way behind my cure 5 still does a consistent 718-720. That is unusuable to safely use with nin tanks and trying to squeeze in more than that on pld's is difficult without becoming risky. Thus getting a little stronger cure 5 is really pointless. As for spell interruption rate...the very few times I do get hit is after I throw a big cure. If I'm getting hit that means I have too much hate and won't be trying to cast more cures anyway.

As for whms missing out on skill ups, I'm lucky to get 2 of the .1 skill ups from my cures. Most of my skill ups coming from -na spells and nuking undead. Neither of these are hindered from having a pl. Even with a pler, a whm or rdm should still be throwing out some cures since as I pointed out the pl can't watch everyones hp at once. With a pler you could even spam cure 1 for extra skill up chances if it is that important to you.
It's called EXPERIENCE points for a reason, as in you're supposed to gain experience about your job
Again with the learning argument. This game is simple and uncomplex. Like I even pointed out in an earlier example, a friend mastered playing 75 rdm in an hour better than many rdm who have been playing it forever. Some people can play this game well, some just can't. PLing will not change that. The skill of the player functions largely independent of what he experiences in game.
 
Uzor, healing magic is useless. I'm saying this as a 75 whm with capped(275) healing magic, it's pointless. I never noticed a difference from ~200+ in my cures, and it was only in cure 5. MND effects your cures a lot more than healing magic.

By the time you even get Cure 5, you should have close to 180 healing magic skill. If you're using Cure 5 enough that it is a big issue, something's wrong. The only time I'll use a cure 5 is when they're hp is around 50%, the rest of the time it's a Cure 3 or Cure 4(depending on the situation), especially if you have a light staff or even a noble's tunic. Regen 3+2 is very nice for keeping a pld alive.

If interruption is a persistent problem, wear your AF boots or get a better tank. I know sometimes it's not their fault if you have to cure a bunch and pull hate, but if it happens a lot, that's a problem. The only time I could see you really needing too not be interrupted was the maat fight, but I never had that problem, since I had -60% interruption with gear.

For any other magic type, there is a noticeable difference in skill levels, ubt for healing magic, there isn't. I'd be willing to bet I'd cure for about the same amount as you, assuming the same gear and everything.
 
Actually i have found Summoning magic is pretty pointless as well...doesn't seem to affect your avatars at all and i have had summoners much higher than me (i am currently level 30SMN) also claim to have seen no noticable difference. Although i did discover that your light staff (and nobles tunic too i would assume) increases carbys cure potential as well as your own....anyway not trying to hijack the thread so i will let you get back to arguing over PLs and lvling skills.
 
Youre right, summoning magic has no effect on avatars, it onl affects spirits. And the corresponding elemental staves reduce avatars perpetuation cost, they dont increase the potency of avatars skills/damage.
 
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