"He's here to offer 'assistance healing.'"

[Kelsilv]

This game is extremely simple. Don't make it out to be calculus 3 where you need loads of practice to understand it.

I believe that to be true, and yet sometimes I'm not sure. Just look at all the people who get to level 30 and still don't have a clue about their jobs, or others that they've been partying with the whole way. I've personally found the game to be quite simple, and obviously it's not been confusing to you either, but how do we explain all the people that JUST DON'T GET IT?

Only time I would see a powerleveler as being useful is if he/she's THE ONLY HEALER. Might as well fill that other spot with a DD or support job.

 

[Uzor]

Uzor, healing magic is useless. I'm saying this as a 75 whm with capped(275) healing magic, it's pointless. I never noticed a difference from ~200+ in my cures, and it was only in cure 5. MND effects your cures a lot more than healing magic.

By the time you even get Cure 5, you should have close to 180 healing magic skill. If you're using Cure 5 enough that it is a big issue, something's wrong. The only time I'll use a cure 5 is when they're hp is around 50%, the rest of the time it's a Cure 3 or Cure 4(depending on the situation), especially if you have a light staff or even a noble's tunic. Regen 3+2 is very nice for keeping a pld alive.

If interruption is a persistent problem, wear your AF boots or get a better tank. I know sometimes it's not their fault if you have to cure a bunch and pull hate, but if it happens a lot, that's a problem. The only time I could see you really needing too not be interrupted was the maat fight, but I never had that problem, since I had -60% interruption with gear.

For any other magic type, there is a noticeable difference in skill levels, ubt for healing magic, there isn't. I'd be willing to bet I'd cure for about the same amount as you, assuming the same gear and everything.

Healing magic do affect Cure V quite a lot, and with capped healing magic you will still do more then someone without, and every little bit matters.

As with interruption rate, I didn't neccesarily mean just healing magic. For soloing, as an example, it can be the difference between life and death as a RDM if you get that vital stoneskin off or not, because a great battle could easily turn into a dissaster if you can't get stoneskin off.

As with the game being easy, it really depends on what you mean with easy. Yes, it is easy to press macroes etc, but the game can still be quite advanced. Is it best to flash or cure the NIN that's getting hit? is it best to throw a cure towards the melee that's gettign beaten or a regen? there's a lot of decisions to make, and that might be hard for a bad player to make. Everyoen make misstakes, but a bad player make the more often.

Besides, there's so much involved in the game, and if you are able to take all into consideration, you're automatically a better player. Adn that might not be the easiest thing to do.

We might think the game is easy, but for some, it may not be so easy. Which is why they are bad players.

As for Cure V versus Regen and Cure III etc. Yes, I know it's better to throw a Cure III then wait untill the tank is almost dead and throw a Cure V -.- I'm a 71 WHM too. That wasn't my point.

 

[Rones]

Healing magic do affect Cure V quite a lot, and with capped healing magic you will still do more then someone without, and every little bit matters.

I already pointed out cure 5 is inpractical with nin tanks and for pld's it is already hard to fit in the entire 700+. Thus having a more potent cure 5 has small returns. In addition, I pointed out that with a pl you could actually skill up healing magic more than a regular party by spamming cure 1. I am curious just how much more cure v does with capped healing skill. For stoneskin example, that is enhancing skill which I explained would remain capped. You would still be refreshing/hasting your party.

As with the game being easy, it really depends on what you mean with easy.

Easy as in an almost non-existent learning curve with very little skill required from the player. Compare this game to complicated rpgs like neverwinter nights with DnD's depth and you see a learning curve and player's need skill to be good. Counter strike has a learning curve and requires a great deal of skill (be it reflexs or tactics) to succede at. In comparison to other games, ffxi is very easy to learn and play (that's the core design of all mmo's to attract more players).

Some of the things you describe are not learned by mindless exp for hours on end, but outside sources which a pl doesn't interfere with. Such as chatting with other players, websites, forums, etc. If a player is good, he will use his sources and learn what he can. Bad players won't learn whether they get a pl or not. Player skill functions largely indepedent of what they experience in game.

 

[Uzor]

I already pointed out cure 5 is inpractical with nin tanks and for pld's it is already hard to fit in the entire 700+. Thus having a more potent cure 5 has small returns. In addition, I pointed out that with a pl you could actually skill up healing magic more than a regular party by spamming cure 1. I am curious just how much more cure v does with capped healing skill. For stoneskin example, that is enhancing skill which I explained would remain capped. You would still be refreshing/hasting your party.

reread the post I posted, please. I said after big mob WS moves, such as Sikcle Slash from spiders, where you might need to cast a Cure V.

Aswell as on big NM's, like Nidhogg, Kirin etc. that often causes much damage in a short ammount of time.

Healing magic is far from useless. The only magic skill I would say is useless is summoner magic (although I don't know how singing skills etc. affect bards magics, so I won't go into that)

 

[Rones]

Last time I encountered a big ws was sickle slash in boyada in early 50s. By the time you get cure 5 the only hard hitting ws on an exp mob you will encounter is spiders in dragon's aery. In those cases you typically see everyone throwing a cure at the tank resulting in massive over cure. Same thing happens when fighting gods/hNM, I never throw more than cure 3 because I know 4-5 other people throwing cures too. All too often cure 5's power just gets wasted. Even with massivly behind healing skill you can expect to see a ~700 cure 5. The difference between capped healing skill and way underlvled is such a small factor isolated to the few incidents where you can fit in an entire cure 5 and results in a difference less than a cure 1. Really this point is mute though since a pl won't hurt your skill ups if you don't want it too.

Singing skill works in combination with wind or string depending on which instrument you use. It is quite useful and is impossible to not have capped.

 

[Bajaratt]

It's been a little while since I've played and used it, but I believe my Cure 5's were going for over 700 hp. I'd have to wait a while to check on that though.

But there is a cap for cure 5, just like every other cure spell, and you can reach it through MND and healing magic. Then, if you deck yourself out in +MND gear, or your healing magic skill is far above the cap, you might get another point or two of hp per cure. So while yes, healing magic is useful, your spells cap fairly early, so it becomes pointless pretty fast.

As for the interruption of stoneskin, I thought that was based on your enhancing magic skill, not healing magic.

On big mobs, I still just alternate cure 3 and 4 as fast as I can, with a regen 3 whenever I can manage it. If I see they're at maybe 60%, I'll start a cure 5, just because I'd expect them to take another hit, but sometimes even that won't help. Ask Cythe about his full hp one-shots with byakko and seiryu.

 

[Uzor]

As for the interruption of stoneskin, I thought that was based on your enhancing magic skill, not healing magic.

it do, but I didn't think it was neccesary to mention the skil linvolved with it. It was an example of why it's important to keep your magic skills capped.

 

[Zodiaque]

Wow. I need to stop reading the flameboard before all the fun in this game is sucked right out of me lol.

I just wanted to add my 2 cents that in all of the time I leveled past lvl 50 or so, it was rare to have anyone "Powerlevel" my party. Normally a blm friend of mine would want to hang out with me because they were bored and wanted to come by to chat for an hour or so with me and my group (which usually had a couple friends in it) and while they were there, they tossed a couple cures. This probably happened twice in my time leveling from 50 to 75 and was never longer than probably an hour.

I never once "depended" on their curing or "needed" them to be there curing, sure, not having to cure one person that got that cure III or IV or whatever it was saved me a few mp points, but wow, if I had to depend on a powerleveler for all of my parties 50+ I'd probably still be...well, lvl 50.

I guess what's so surprising is that people are so jumpy on this subject that it makes me wonder where all of those people with higher lvl whm or blm or whatever friends that can follow them around all the time for every party they have 50+ are/were. I don't think I ever partied with one person 50+ that had someone following them around with the express purpose of powerleveling them to 75 or even one person 50+ that had ever powerleveled us.

My shock just comes because it has never occurred to me that my tossing someone that I see is low on hp randomly out there to keep them from dying is so unwanted and hated and is not the "help" that I see it as, but actually crutching them in their job and making them bad at it.

I'm glad that FFXI doesn't have a board of people on it that you have to go to for permission to go hang out with a friend and cure him whenever you see him getting low on hp, not that I do it often, but wow, I thought this was a free world lol.

I will admit, I've gone to the dunes and sat with a good friend and cured them and their party to help them out /gasp /cries of shock. Did I do it for this person until they were 75 so that they were gimped at their job or dependant upon me? No, not at all. I've probably done it once for every really really good friend of mine, probably for like an hour, and it was because I was bored and wanted someone to go have fun with and hang out with, and I wanted to help them out. Every time I've done it, I've stayed for a little while, helped them out a little, everyone was happy, and then I waved goodbye and went on my merry way. Should I be burned at the stake for that? I doubt it. It's probably been a good 6 months since I've done this, and I'd do it again anyday that I ever felt like doing it.

The irritating thing, is when people start asking you to PL them, or shouting for a PL. I don't see it as something that should be a necessity of your party, but something that a friend will do if they're bored and feel like hanging out with you. I've had plenty of people ask me for a powerlevel that I've turned down, or harrass me in ls, that I've turned down, because I don't do it on request, I do it when I feel like hanging out with someone, and helping someone for a little bit. Completely recreational, and it stops as soon as I have something better to do with my time ^^.

In conclusion, I will continue to go hang out with a friend and toss them and their party cures anytime I feel like it, although now I may ask the party if it offends anyone in it and if it does, I won't offend them by curing them, I'll just concentrate on my friend and the people that are happy about it. I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but I am free to do whatever I like in this game (following my high moral code and POL user agreement), and if you don't like it, you're completely entitled to that as well .

My point is, that I am just sitting here giggling, because I wonder when I'm going to see a post on here about someone being angry their friend quit and sent them millions of gil. Basically the same concept to me because that isn't something you "earn" either and should be with this argument under the category of "Pointless things to be upset about."

When are we all going to just sit back and /points to the "Live and Let Live." on her signet.../shakes head.

 

[Bajaratt]

Helping someone out isn't a bad thing. The OP was just showing their shock that someone 50+ actually brought a powerlevel for the party. It's one thing to have a mage friend nearby that you can ask for something(raise 2/3, take a link, etc), it's another thing entirely to get them to powerlevel you at that level.

I've done the same thing you did in the dunes. Only powerlevel people I know occasionally, and only then it was until I found something to do or got a party. I think most people's problems with powerleveling is when you powerlevel someone on their first job, or just some total stranger for gil.

 

[Firestreak]

I do believe the problem most people have with powerleveled players, is not that they expect a level 75 to not know how to play. I believe it's a question of if soemoene is poowerleveled all the way through dunes and qufim that they might have someone who understands nothing just a bit too high for them levelwise. E.G. Kazham is not the place to learn how to party without a powerlevel. If you're in a kazham party and the player has never had a real party before you might be upset at their level of performance as there IS a difference.
Or if you believe that skill is natural and that experience is mostly meaningless, than for example a tank unable to provoke will most likely have a much more difficult time leveling up by either his own party's failure, slow xp or himself being kicked out. This would naturally weed out bad players.
It's important because when you're level 30 you don't expect someone with the skill of a level 10. You don't want someone who doesn't understand macros. Who can't skill chain. The exp/level requirements have gone up. The monsters hit harder. Parties take longer to form. The pulls are more dangerous and you lose more exp for death. Dunes parties are nice for learning because if one fails due to an incompetant member, everyone can get a new party quickly. Until the bad player listens to advice his leveling will be slowed by failures.


And by the way. as far as cure 5 goes. First I'd point out that the argument that if it's possible to max yourself out in mnd you could cap it faster seems pretty pointless. If you're already giving up MP slots to cap what you can simply by skilling it then you've effectively failed at life. As for the usefulness of cure 5, I've found plenty.
Your paladin has 1000 hp. Cure 5 does 650ish. There are no strong WS moves. Do the math. My RDM is static and knows my basic curing strategy long enough that she won't throw in useless cures. The only reason cure 5 would be useless is that other mages would have thought that by you letting the damage get so high it's usable you're unaware and emergency heal. But in all situations that's not true. In most effectively organized end game God LS you don't have 5 WHM at once spamming the same guy with cures. You have 1 WHM curing while the others rest or run around raising people. The power of one WHM with MP to cure overpowers the damage of any mob in this game except perhaps that NM that does to Paladins 1000 dmg per hit so ninjas have to tank him. As for the rest if you simply put 1 WHM on the spot to heal, and perhaps a rdm occasionally emergency heal while doing other duties, you can run smoothly. So yes, cure 5 is a useful spell. And I believe it has less hate than cure 3 or even 2. Which is why I will often use it even for 500-600 points of cures. Alternating cure 3 and 5 and I won't get hate even in emergency situations. At least as a taru I always have enough MP so the efficiency argument is moot.

 

[Halifirien]

My shock just comes because it has never occurred to me that my tossing someone that I see is low on hp randomly out there to keep them from dying is so unwanted and hated and is not the "help" that I see it as, but actually crutching them in their job and making them bad at it.

Nah, that's entirely different from what I was talking about. I do stuff like that all the time. Part of being a WHM is being able to swoop in and save lives with that unexpected cure.

Bajaratt is right that my complaint was about the leader incorporating a PL into his party. If he'd said something like "He's looking for a party and wants to throw out some cures or whatever for a little bit while he waits," I would've mellowed out and kept my mouth shut. But since the leader's entire chaining strategy was based on the PL's presence, it didn't inspire confidence.

I can put up with a PL for 20-30 minutes like your example, but for hours? No. It's fine for the ones who want to do it, but I'm not one of them. For me, it's too much like beating some tough game on God Mode. Sure, you get to see the ending... but it doesn't feel like you earned it.

I'm not one to throw my weight around in a party. I'll stick with some of the worst setups you've ever seen because I want to make them work if I can. But you have to draw a line somewhere. And a PL at 55 is a very big line.

 

[Rones]

For me, it's too much like beating some tough game on God Mode. Sure, you get to see the ending... but it doesn't feel like you earned it.

I was wondering when someone would try that argument. By that same standard you better not play with brds or rng as they make the game easier. Better yet don't use +1 gear and food, or just don't use any gear at all. :roll: It's not as if they just entered a code and magically became 75. There is still work involved. PL tends to be more time efficient for the xp you gain, much like cannon party's. Fighting smarter is not a bad thing.

I'm not sure why you brought up cure 5 again Firestreak. We all agree it is a good spell, but having underlvled healing skill doesn't hurt it's use. Like I already pointed out my healing skill is 40 lvls from cap and does 715-720 with very little +mnd gear. Sure, more healing skill would be nice but that is totally irrelevent to powerleveling as I already pointed out a pl party allows more skill up.

The recurring argument seems to be that pl parties creates noobs. I still disagree with that. A pl party has slightly different dynamics, much like our beloved cannons have different tactics, but players can still learn things like macros and pulling in a pl party. Tanks should still try to control hate as it makes things easier on the pler to only heal one person. Just what complex task is learned in normal parties that players are blocked from learning by the occasional pl party (no one gets pl parties 100% of the time as much as some like to think that).

 

[Uzor]

I'm not sure why you brought up cure 5 again Firestreak. We all agree it is a good spell, but having underlvled healing skill doesn't hurt it's use. Like I already pointed out my healing skill is 40 lvls from cap and does 715-720 with very little +mnd gear. Sure, more healing skill would be nice but that is totally irrelevent to powerleveling as I already pointed out a pl party allows more skill up.

see, that's the thing. My healing magic is 244, and I cure for about ~750 with close to none +MND gear. That's a whoopin' 30 more then you do with roughly 10 more healing magic.

And the thing about PL'ing people to ofar is like what Firestreak said. Personally, I would poke my eyes out if I met a PLD at level 25 that couldn't provoke... Oh, wait, that already happened >.>

 

[Rones]

My healing magic is 244, and I cure for about ~750 with close to none +MND gear

I'm sorry, but I have to call BS on that. I just doubled checked my healing skill (been awhile, too much fun as brd) and I'm up to 240+15 from af hands. With minimial +mnd, I do 715-718 cure 5, with full errant I'm doing 725-728. You are elvaan, so that will give you a slight advantage with extra, but there is no way you can cure5 with for 750 with that skill lvl unless you have both a light staff and noble's or lightsday. I have seen fellow whm's in my god's ls with full errant and capped healing skill that can't even break 740 without a noble's.

We have all meet crappy players at all lvl ranges that don't know how to do their jobs. They are not all the result of plers anymore than all Chinese players are gilsellers. By your belief, you just happen to magically run into these people in their first ever non-pled party which is even less likely. All these players have expereinced both kinds of parties, and even if they didn't that is not the cause for them being totally incompetent. Just being a bad gamer is the cause. Just look at all the noobs we having floating about who have never been pled. How do you explain them? My last 63 rdm did not refresh, enfeeble, or cure. He only meleed. Had he been pled up to 63? Nope, he just stunk at games.

Powerlvling has become a scapegoat for people's frustrations with noobs it appears just like gilsellers are the scapegoat for economic problems. Are they possibly a small source of the problem? Yes. Are they the main source? Nope.

 

[Uzor]

My healing magic is 244, and I cure for about ~750 with close to none +MND gear

I'm sorry, but I have to call BS on that. I just doubled checked my healing skill (been awhile, too much fun as brd) and I'm up to 240+15 from af hands. With minimial +mnd, I do 715-718 cure 5, with full errant I'm doing 725-728. You are elvaan, so that will give you a slight advantage with extra, but there is no way you can cure5 with for 750 with that skill lvl unless you have both a light staff and noble's or lightsday. I have seen fellow whm's in my god's ls with full errant and capped healing skill that can't even break 740 without a noble's.

We have all meet crappy players at all lvl ranges that don't know how to do their jobs. They are not all the result of plers anymore than all Chinese players are gilsellers. By your belief, you just happen to magically run into these people in their first ever non-pled party which is even less likely. All these players have expereinced both kinds of parties, and even if they didn't that is not the cause for them being totally incompetent. Just being a bad gamer is the cause. Just look at all the noobs we having floating about who have never been pled. How do you explain them? My last 63 rdm did not refresh, enfeeble, or cure. He only meleed. Had he been pled up to 63? Nope, he just stunk at games.

Powerlvling has become a scapegoat for people's frustrations with noobs it appears just like gilsellers are the scapegoat for economic problems. Are they possibly a small source of the problem? Yes. Are they the main source? Nope.

And what makes you think I don't?

And yes, I can agree that Poweleveling have become a scapegoat, but that doesn't stop the fact that people won't learn their jobs good (tanks as an example). Maybe not if they get PL'd in only one party. Sadly, that it most likely not the case since 95% of the parties I'm in in Valkurm Dunes have a PL'er. Atleast when I went through there with DRG, NIN, PLD, DRK and WHM.

 

[Kalendor]

You miss the point

WHM is boring enough already if you're the only one doing the curing/buffing. This whole discussion has nothing to do with noob-making (being a noob has nothing to do with being power-levelled), it has to do with:

If you don't even have to throw heals and haste and what not, WHAT DO YOU DO, play PsP while watching???

 

[Halifirien]

Kalendor nails the point I made earlier. As a WHM, being in a PL party is boring as hell. There's nothing for me to do except sit on my ass and pretend to be a healer while leeching xp. Yeah, I can Erase and stuff like that, but why should I bother? The danger of the party losing to a mob is not going to be based on anything I do. Why should I stick around and eat up space which could be filled by another DD who needs a party a lot more than I do?

As for the God Mode argument, I'll go back to something said on Page 1 and point out I've been playing Resident Evil 4 a lot and unlocked the infinite weapons. The game that originally took about twenty hours to beat can now be breezed through in no time at all. That initial thrill is gone. So I can see why, after getting a job or two to 75, you might stay "Xp is xp, and let's just get through this as quickly as possible."

But I don't have any jobs that high, and I'm not in a hurry to get one. That's why I don't object as much to a PL in places like the dunes when it's all a bunch of people on their second or third jobs who know what to expect.

Having said that, I recently took MNK through the dunes (and will soon take WAR). It's a completely different mindset after playing mage for so long. Playing WHM to the 50s made me think I knew a lot about how melee jobs worked, but I was very wrong.

 

[Halifirien]

But I don't think WHM is a boring job. I love doing it or I wouldn't be bothering with it.

 

[Rones]

And what makes you think I don't?

Well that kind of defeats the whole point of your argument. Your extra strong cure 5 has nothing to do with healing skill, but is rather your nobel's tunic.

If you don't even have to throw heals and haste and what not, WHAT DO YOU DO, play PsP while watching???

If you are lazy, yeah. If not, then you can keep playing like you should because a pler is not a sumpreme being that can do everything at once. Most likely they won't be hasting everyone since that takes a lot of time and mp, so you can help with that. You can also still enfeeble like you would in a normal party. Finally, you will likely still want to cure some because a pler can not see everyones hp at once. Like I said earlier, they like to just watch the tanks hp and you can handle the rest. All else fails you can skill up your club or staff and be just as bored as regular melees get with auto attack.

Exping is already a boring process by lvl 30 on the first job, just different degrees of boredom to different people. I don't see how having a pl could make it more boring than sitting around watching your mp refill because you caused downtime and have stalled the party. The boredom comes along with the fact that this game is easy and simple to play.

 

[Neyla]

I guess I'm strange in that I don't find exping boring. Sitting on my ass while someone else does most of my work for me (if I was a WHM) would be extremely fucking boring. Yeah, you have a better view of the whole party's health, but if the tank is doing their job properly no one else should have that much to worry about except maybe the puller. Too often I see the PLs tanking now. I've had PLDs and NINs ask for PLs for their parties and and if I could serve as tank while they pretend to be DDs. Good luck partying them when they hit the Citadel and the Nest andneed to be reminded to provoke. That's gonna be great fun.