Honestly....

The problem is you're assuming again. How is an invited member supposed to know he needs a certain staging point to get to a camp if you don't ask? You're going to be surprised, but I guarantee you there are still people playing that don't even know what a staging point IS, much less if they have one. That's why the leader, who in theory knows all of this stuff, needs to ask people before inviting. If someone gets a tell "Hey, do you have the Ilrusi Atoll staging poing?" and replies with "Um, wtf is that?" then you know either not to invite them or that you'll need an alternate camp.

You have to go into pt building with the assumption that you are pting with people who don't have your knowledge. Sure I know what moon is, but I can assure you many players don't. Are you going to tell me its their fault when you say "Okay, we all have mamool point right?" and they go "what's a mamool?"
 
Rappa said:
The problem is you're assuming again. How is an invited member supposed to know he needs a certain staging point to get to a camp if you don't ask? You're going to be surprised, but I guarantee you there are still people playing that don't even know what a staging point IS, much less if they have one. That's why the leader, who in theory knows all of this stuff, needs to ask people before inviting. If someone gets a tell "Hey, do you have the Ilrusi Atoll staging poing?" and replies with "Um, wtf is that?" then you know either not to invite them or that you'll need an alternate camp.

You have to go into pt building with the assumption that you are pting with people who don't have your knowledge. Sure I know what moon is, but I can assure you many players don't. Are you going to tell me its their fault when you say "Okay, we all have mamool point right?" and they go "what's a mamool?"
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I'm not going to entirely agree or disagree, but considering the ToA areas are 60+, it's a fair assumption all those players are well aware that they need to unlock certain things to gain access considering the previous expansions, RoZ(sky) and CoP(90% of the expansion). If this was a dunes party, then I'd maybe be inclined to agree, but this isn't. There is a certain expectation that by the time you are level 60, you should have some understanding and knowledge of the game. Even if this is a new area, you are still required to have some knowledge and ignorance is not an excuse.
 
Not having all five staging points if you are seeking for xp on a 75 job in the ToAU areas is pure laziness. Making your party wait an extra 15-20 min to start a party is wasting their time. I had all 5 staging points by the second day of the expansion BEFORE all the super duper guides and maps were up. Its called being prepared. To me, its as inexcusable as ppl not having all teleport crystals at this point. Its laziness and pure gimpage.
 
it has been a while since ToAU was released
seriously not completing in obtaining staging points is just pure lazy
it is not difficult
it only requires time with sneak and invi... and maybe a map to guide you
 
LadyKiKi said:
You're gonna pick on someone's typo?
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Read his post, please.

He says something about staging points, and the person in question replies with "um, WTF is that?"

:P Not exactly picking, is it. I think Rappa can defend himself well enough without your help in a battle of wits if he feels provoked anyway.
 
Kirayamato said:
it has been a while since ToAU was released
seriously not completing in obtaining staging points is just pure lazy
it is not difficult
it only requires time with sneak and invi... and maybe a map to guide you
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Well, the only problematic ones would be Ilrusi Atoll and Dvucca Island. Ilrusi's easy with reraise incase you aggro imps at the end. But you only get one free key from the ??? in Caedarva Mire, and getting a new one to drop isn't a soloable effort. Dvucca is still pretty tough to go at it alone.
 
I agree that not having the staging points by this point in time is lazy. Drives me nuts when the ls asks me to help on an assault and we find out 2 people coming don't have that staging point, haha. I however still disagree with inviting people under the assumption that they will know when they aren't prepared for something just because you do and it's "common knowledge". I'm not going to bet players' valuable time on something like that when it's just as easy to make sure up-front they have what I want from them.

I learned this the hard way. I was levelling white mage and I invited a lvl 69 drk to close light for us under the assumption that he had Spinning Slash (a lvl 66 g.swd skill). Well, he didn't and I felt like a jackass for not asking in advance. You say to yourself "who doesn't know what staging points are?". I actually had to explain in tells to this drk why SS was good. It pays to make sure.
 
Runekane said:
Read his post, please.

He says something about staging points, and the person in question replies with "um, WTF is that?"

:P Not exactly picking, is it. I think Rappa can defend himself well enough without your help in a battle of wits if he feels provoked anyway.
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Haha, fair enough, I wasn't really defending, but ... I admit I skimmed through the post so it does look a bit like it ... that you're just posting to pick on someone you don't like ... but . . . ah well ...

*Ladykiki walks away slowly ...
 
I totally agree with Rappa! (I'm starting to sound like the fanboi-type.) It is the leader's responcibilty even despite that I have all staging points. I don't think shaming the person for not having the Staging Point is the route to go at all in accomplishing the goal of having those on the server getting these. I am more than willing to bet that the first time a person gets passed over for a exp party (especially a good exp party) they will seek out getting it done. All it takes is for the leader to say (Hello) (Nice to Meet You) (Camp) (Insert Name of blah blah staging point area) (Do You Have it?) (Do You Need It?) blah blah blah blah other stuff.-- And when they don't... you say (I'm Sorry), and (See You Again). -- That right there saves you, your party, and the person being invited a lot of unnessessary stress (in a game).

One thing that you have to always remember that even despite the release being a month ago-- Everyone spends their game time differently. What might be easy for you to accomplish could be incredibly hard for someone else to do. You never know if they just got the expansion yesterday. There is constantly threads going on of people doing ZM missions for sky-- that is one of the biggest signs of how diverse our server is considering some of us got that done over a year ago.

Though, I won't deny that it is frustrating-- because it can be! I try to always encourage everyone to get them, but that is all you really can do.
 
To the OP:

I hope you never needed an exp party to march you to get your teleport-shard or whatever before you first got invited to exp at the old zones. :P
 
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pakomen said:
To the OP:

I hope you never needed an exp party to march you to get your teleport-shard or whatever before you first got invited to exp at the old zones. :P
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He didn't. He had teleport crystals well before needing any of them to go to an xp party. Also, Tibris had all 5 staging points done on first day he acquired expansion. A little bit of effort and you are prepared. Instead of people compalining about being bored waiting on an xp party they could get these done?
 
I invite a mnk to party and he doesn't have any weapon, just bare fists. Is that my fault as party leader? Should I have known the person was so dumb, that he/she cannot even understand the need for a weapon? So as party leader, I am responsible for every action of my members no matter how stupid? I don't see how the leader can be help responsible for someone else's laziness/stupidity. A leader can't possible plan for every stupid thing a member can do and trust me, there are an exceptionally huge amount of them. I wouldn't blame the leader, I'd blame the member for wasting my time. To me, ignorance is not an excuse.
 
Rappa said:
Yes. And if they can't, they shouldn't be a pt leader. It isn't about what is and isn't fair. If I'm too busy to handle it, I seek pt. If I make a pt, I do everything I said above so I don't waste my members' time.

If you're a mage and don't know a skillchain, you ask the first DD you invite what he can skillchain with for XX skillchain. If they don't know, it's your job to find a skillchain chart and look it up. If you invite two DDs that can't do a good skillchain (excluding cannon setups), you've gimped your pt's xp. It isn't the two DDs fault, it's yours.
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I agree but disagree! I wouldnt go as far as saying because two DD cannot do a good skill chain together "gimps" your party or your exp, there are other ways around this, like plenty of other alternitives to damage in melee's they do some have pretty damaging singular weaponskills that can make up for no skillchain! (I've been in plenty of partys where no skill chain was active but still managed to produce good quick experience points) But you are right, and I have to agree with most of what you've said, it's up to the leader to make the decisions of the party, and look for places to improve if it's not going too well!

But, you have to consider other things too, just look and observe, sometimes you might be invited by a fairly new player, everybody needs to learn, usually they state that they are new to the game, or don't know certain things, n there's nothing wrong with making suggestions for them to remember for future reference, perhaps expliain to them the responsibility of becoming a leader. But, think about it, it's just a game, it can be learned, it isnt exactly hard to do it right with good effect. =)
 
Lavi said:
I invite a mnk to party and he doesn't have any weapon, just bare fists. Is that my fault as party leader? Should I have known the person was so dumb, that he/she cannot even understand the need for a weapon? So as party leader, I am responsible for every action of my members no matter how stupid? I don't see how the leader can be help responsible for someone else's laziness/stupidity. A leader can't possible plan for every stupid thing a member can do and trust me, there are an exceptionally huge amount of them. I wouldn't blame the leader, I'd blame the member for wasting my time. To me, ignorance is not an excuse.
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Actually-- it is your fault per say if you don't remove them from the party before leaving to the camp. Same reason that I own up for not taking the advice of a ranger who told me that the thief I invited to the party was a waste of space-- but, I give everyone a fair chance and he was a waste of space that I then had to handle as best as I could at the camp.

-- That is not to say that the route that I chose was wrong. And I doubt anyone else in the party held it against me-- but would still be my fault for allowing the player to "leech" the party. I do hold it against leaders who allow crappy red mages to leech exp because they "need a refresh". The same holds true for if a leader allowed a monk to stay in party without weapons.

But, let's be reasonable here-- what are you going to remember more: The badly prepaired member or the leader who allowed the badly prepaired member to remain in the party? You are not god or hitler as a leader-- but, you do have a degree of responcibility to the rest of your party members. If you constantly make bad parties-- people won't join your parties. But, yah, some levels it is just the nature of the beast to get a crappy member.

-------
On another extreme..
I think that everyone should have sea. I have sea. Do you have sea? If I made a party for sea and invited you to it.. would I look silly for you not having sea or would you look silly for not having sea? I think that everyone should have staging points also-- but in the event that they don't-- the leader looks ignorant for assuming that they did have it.
 
Sandria said:
On another extreme..
I think that everyone should have sea. I have sea. Do you have sea? If I made a party for sea and invited you to it.. would I look silly for you not having sea or would you look silly for not having sea? I think that everyone should have staging points also-- but in the event that they don't-- the leader looks ignorant for assuming that they did have it.
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Then some people must be very spoilt to have such high standards ...

(Note, i know you're sounding sarcastic there, I'm just pointing this out, not directly at you)
 
Cloudu said:
I agree but disagree! I wouldnt go as far as saying because two DD cannot do a good skill chain together "gimps" your party or your exp, there are other ways around this, like plenty of other alternitives to damage in melee's they do some have pretty damaging singular weaponskills that can make up for no skillchain! (I've been in plenty of partys where no skill chain was active but still managed to produce good quick experience points) But you are right, and I have to agree with most of what you've said, it's up to the leader to make the decisions of the party, and look for places to improve if it's not going too well!

But, you have to consider other things too, just look and observe, sometimes you might be invited by a fairly new player, everybody needs to learn, usually they state that they are new to the game, or don't know certain things, n there's nothing wrong with making suggestions for them to remember for future reference, perhaps expliain to them the responsibility of becoming a leader. But, think about it, it's just a game, it can be learned, it isnt exactly hard to do it right with good effect. =)
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It doesn't "gimp" your exp, but it sure as hell lowers it below what you could make if you had compatable skillchain partners. If you have a blm without an effective skillchain, then you're wasting the blm's potential. If you have to do a crappy level 1 skillchain because someone didn't think to get people who can make a skilllchain that's worthwhile, that's not exping to the party's potential. I prefer the parties with 2-3 melee DD that just spam weaponskills(or spam skillchains on my sam), because then you don't have to hold back because your skillchain would kill the mob before the MB. This is all part of being a leader. If you invite a monk and a drg before 65 and they can't skillchain together for crap(impaction, reverberation, compression or transfixion only, all crap), you only have yourself to blame. Now, if you can't get the people together to make a good skillchain, then just grab several melee and have them spam weaponskills; it's another decision a leader should make.

People aren't expecting perfect parties in the dunes, they're talking about level 50+ at the very highest; when there's really no excuse for making such, for lack of a better way to put it, noob mistakes. Leading a party means making decisions, from who to invite to where to camp and so on; and if you haven't learned even the basics of a skillchain or about how a party should look you need to not be a leader. There are tons of places on the internet where you can go to learn how to be an effective leader, or you can learn from people in-game, but getting to 50+ without having a clue isn't excusable.
 
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Sandria said:
Actually-- it is your fault per say if you don't remove them from the party before leaving to the camp. Same reason that I own up for not taking the advice of a ranger who told me that the thief I invited to the party was a waste of space-- but, I give everyone a fair chance and he was a waste of space that I then had to handle as best as I could at the camp.

-- That is not to say that the route that I chose was wrong. And I doubt anyone else in the party held it against me-- but would still be my fault for allowing the player to "leech" the party. I do hold it against leaders who allow crappy red mages to leech exp because they "need a refresh". The same holds true for if a leader allowed a monk to stay in party without weapons.

But, let's be reasonable here-- what are you going to remember more: The badly prepaired member or the leader who allowed the badly prepaired member to remain in the party? You are not god or hitler as a leader-- but, you do have a degree of responcibility to the rest of your party members. If you constantly make bad parties-- people won't join your parties. But, yah, some levels it is just the nature of the beast to get a crappy member.

-------
On another extreme..
I think that everyone should have sea. I have sea. Do you have sea? If I made a party for sea and invited you to it.. would I look silly for you not having sea or would you look silly for not having sea? I think that everyone should have staging points also-- but in the event that they don't-- the leader looks ignorant for assuming that they did have it.
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I'm not suggesting keeping them in party, I am just stating it is faulty to blame the leader for the shortcomings of any member. A leader cannot possibly be expected to cover every possible scenario that can and does go wrong with the party selection, formation, etc. just because they are the leader. They cannot possibly think of everything and shouldn't be expected to. If you forget something, you neglect something, or just down right refuse to do something that is considered necessary for any party, that's your fault and no one elses. Don't try to pass off the laziness of a party member or their ignorance as someone else's mistake. It's theirs and theirs alone.

Edit in: The entire point of my example is that no one asks a party member if they have a weapon, not even the leader. So if a member does forget, is it the leader's fault when something like that is expected of everyone or is it the party member's?
 
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*Rubs temples* Lavi.... The basics to making a party generally include-- but do not limit to where the party will go to camp. Establishing this point first can generally be very important because you will then know just which jobs would be the best asset to the party. I.e. Certain mobs are tanked better with a Paladin than a Ninja. If you are going to (insert said camp) and you have a ninja and a paladin seeking (let's say they are both of the same level of skill/talent/gear, etc)-- you would chose the member better suitting the camp, right? The next critical factor is weapons-- asking a monk if they can use (hand-to-hand) is a silly question of course-- but asking a person who uses multiple weapons what they can use is not. Believe it or not I would ask corsairs if they had ranged attack-- and some would say no. Needing a puller I had no choice but to not proceed with the invite. When inviting someone to a party in kazham and I see that they are perhaps rank 1 2 or 3.. I would also want to ask if they had an airship pass to kazham or tell them the party was to be in kazham and they would be able to tell me that they don't have access to the area.

This is no different from when I would party in sky or Luf Meadows and had not seen that character in that region before or seen it in their /seacom. And even in those cases when that one party member couldn't go to Bibiki bay.

If it is a zone or area that needs some special quest or activity to access.. as a party leader I need to communicate that factor or I need to quickly make accomidations. i.e. the only bard seeking doesn't have the staging point.... we certainly are going on a nature walk or going some where else.

...this is one of the main reasons most people show in their seacom where they can exp at, what their tnl is, and what weapons they can use.

Certain information is needed. I should not have to ask a rdm if they have dispell when we go to a camp that has mobs that need to be dispelled. Admittingly, I have been in a party where the red mage did not have it. Does this mean that I should have to ask every rdm do they have dispell? No. But, I do ask white mages if they have erase and haste while on ninja. And, I will openly admit that I will pick the one who has it over the one without it if there is more than one player to chose from..
 
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