Hypothetical Question

[Celvantes]

Some friends and I got into a discussion about endgame weapons for WAR last night (Woody, Maneater, Jugg, Ridill, etc). I started wondering how that would all change if SE put in an exact Joyeuse equivalent for WAR.

For example, based on pure DPS, the best sword is the Company Sword weighing in at a staggering 12.72 in full party. Proportionally, Joyeuse has 63% of Comp's damage and 118% of Comp's delay. Equating that to the Tarbizin +1 (slightly higher DPS than Maneater at 10.71), a Joyeuse equivalent axe for WAR would be...

45 DMG, 236 Dly +14 Dark, Occasionally attacks twice. WAR/DRK/BST

If they put in such an axe for WAR, and assuming that it dropped off of a similar NM to Charybdis (8-16 hour respawn, requires 2 people to kill PHs, full pty to kill NM, 100% drop), would this be the new be-all, end-all offhand weapon for WAR? Or, would Ridill still be the best thing a WAR could offhand? Would such a weapon being available to WARs give other jobs a shot at Ridill?

 

[Stouter]

Company Sword is 56 DMG (In full party) Joyeuse is 35 DMG. Tabarzian+1 is 50 damage, you need to drop your theoretical axe down to 30 or so damage.

It would be junk compared to Ridill on a War merited for Ridill.

 

[Courtney]

I really like Temperance Axe off-hand for BST. Of course that isn't usable by WAR, but that seems to be about the axe you're looking for?

 

[Skaw]

Company Sword is 56 DMG (In full party) Joyeuse is 35 DMG. Tabarzian+1 is 50 damage, you need to drop your theoretical axe down to 30 or so damage.

It would be junk compared to Ridill on a War merited for Ridill.

An Axe with 288 Delay comparable to Joyeuse(with a DPS of 9.375,) would be 45 Damage. Considering Juggernaut is 46 damage, thats not too bad. Especially considering the Accuracy and Attack you'll retain subbing it over Ridill, even though Ridill still has "higher" DPS. Courtney is right, Temperance(DPS of 8.478,) would be the closest item now to fill that role if it were usable by WAR, just requiring virtue stones.

An Axe comparable to Ridill would be Maneater or Tabarzin in terms of Damage and Delay. but that'd just be flat out more broken due to skill levels.

 

[Stouter]

An Axe with 288 Delay comparable to Joyeuse(with a DPS of 9.375,) would be 45 Damage.

45 DMG, 236 Dly

My assumption was that he was basing it off Joyeuse dmg/Company dmg and Joyeuse delay/company delay, basing it off tabarzin+1's dmg/delay, that's what I saw the "Joyeuse has 63% of Comp's damage and 118% of Comp's delay" as meaning.

Making it proportional in that way would make a 31 Dmg, 238 Delay Axe.

 

[Lavi]

All weapons with multihits like Ridill, Joyeuese, sea weapons, etc. are all weakened one way or another. Ridill is unusable by any job that has an A skill (BLU or PLD) in sword. Joyeuse same thing, but can be used by PLD, except the base damage in much lower than a lot of other higher level swords. Multihit weapons like mercurial kris and mercurial sword are all A skills for THF and DRK respectively, but have extremely low base DMG. Soboro and sea weapons like Temprance are good weapons to use for multihits, but they are lower than average base damage and for sea weapons, the jobs that can make use of them are not higher level DDs (Only exception is Faith, but has high delay). The PLD can use the sword and BST can use axe; however, no one would argue those jobs are too powerful. Ridill is in a category by itself and although it's not extremely powerful like the weapon you described, it is "broken" by all comarison.

Skaw is correct, a weapon that has multihit would just be too powerful when it has an average base damage and delay. Multihit weapons are weaker for a reason and it's obvious why. Any job that can get a multihit weapon that's not weakened would suddenly be flocked to in one way or another. You could add multihit weapons for all jobs, but then that would suddenly become the elite thing and everyone would get it or try to. SE wants diversity and that's just not going to give it.

 

[meeze]

DRK can't even use Merc sword...aint that some shit.

 

[Caerloc]

All weapons with multihits like Ridill, Joyeuese, sea weapons, etc. are all weakened one way or another. Ridill is unusable by any job that has an A skill (BLU or PLD) in sword. Joyeuse same thing, but can be used by PLD, except the base damage in much lower than a lot of other higher level swords. Multihit weapons like mercurial kris and mercurial sword are all A skills for THF and DRK respectively, but have extremely low base DMG. Soboro and sea weapons like Temprance are good weapons to use for multihits, but they are lower than average base damage and for sea weapons, the jobs that can make use of them are not higher level DDs (Only exception is Faith, but has high delay). The PLD can use the sword and BST can use axe; however, no one would argue those jobs are too powerful. Ridill is in a category by itself and although it's not extremely powerful like the weapon you described, it is "broken" by all comarison.

Skaw is correct, a weapon that has multihit would just be too powerful when it has an average base damage and delay. Multihit weapons are weaker for a reason and it's obvious why. Any job that can get a multihit weapon that's not weakened would suddenly be flocked to in one way or another. You could add multihit weapons for all jobs, but then that would suddenly become the elite thing and everyone would get it or try to. SE wants diversity and that's just not going to give it.

Faith baghnaks really only have all that high delay when compared to destroyers. Compared to other popular hand-to-hand the delay isnt that bad. Spartan Cesti: dly +113, Cross-Counters: dly +96, Avengers: Dly +96, Spharai: dly +86, Indra katars: Dly+84.

Like i said in another thread here, at 75 with 292 skill, faith baghnaks has a base dmg of 41, a delay of 413 (206.5 per hand) and averages 1 full extra attack per round.

Compared to Jugg/ridill with suppanomimi wich comes down to 419 delay (209.5 per hand) with an average of one extra attack per round.

The downside of Faith Baghnaks of course is that there is no way to use a high-dmg weapon for ws. But as far as DoT goes i'd say Faith > Ridill especially since the war is gonna be hitting with, at best, 271 skill and a used ear-slot, compared to a mnk's 292 skill withouth any slots used.

This is ofcourse all speculations, since i havent had a chance to compare the DoT part of my Faiths against a Ridill war. Would be fun though.

Edit: Forgot a mnk would actually have its ranged used, so the non-slot used was a lie i suppose, allthough practically a non-issue when you think about what the options are for a mnk in the ranged department.

 

[Lavi]

Yah, but Faith are meant to have lower base damage and higher delay in comparison to the standard. Not saying the delay is extremely bad, but you can find weapons with much lower delay and higher base damage very easily. The idea behind any multihit weapon is to not make it too powerful, the only exception to this being the Ridill. I personly believe SE never intended the Ridill to be used as it is now. It was one of the first if not the very first multihit weapon in the game created at a time when Sushi didn't even exist. SE probably expected the Double and Triple attacks to only make up for misses and add a little extra damage, not to become the elite perfection it is now. If SE had never introduced the Ridill previously and was only now considing the idea, it would probably be some much weaker like Mercurial or Sea weapons.

 

[Laubibent]

Bahamut's Zaghnal
Jobs: BST DRK WAR
Damage: 24
Delay: 480
Damage Per Second (DPS): 3
TP Per Hit: 13%
Occasionally attacks 2 to 3 times

 

[Laubibent]

Bahamut's Zaghnal
Level: 75
Flags: Rare / Exclusive / Not NPC Sellable
Slot: Weapon
Type: Zaghnal
Jobs: BST DRK WAR
Races: All
Damage: 24
Delay: 480
Damage Per Second (DPS): 3
TP Per Hit: 13%
Equipment Category:
Weapons / Scythes
Effects for Bahamut's Zaghnal:
Occasionally attacks 2 to 3 times


not sure if this posted

 

[neophytal]

for those who care what that actually looks like in game:

 

[CmdrFly]

Bahamut's Zaghnal
Level: 75
Flags: Rare / Exclusive / Not NPC Sellable
Slot: Weapon
Type: Zaghnal
Jobs: BST DRK WAR
Races: All
Damage: 24
Delay: 480
Damage Per Second (DPS): 3
TP Per Hit: 13%
Equipment Category:
Weapons / Scythes
Effects for Bahamut's Zaghnal:
Occasionally attacks 2 to 3 times


not sure if this posted

Jesus that's worse than merc sword, would be a nice toy for skilling up though.

45 DMG, 236 Dly +14 Dark, Occasionally attacks twice. WAR/DRK/BST

If they put in such an axe for WAR, and assuming that it dropped off of a similar NM to Charybdis (8-16 hour respawn, requires 2 people to kill PHs, full pty to kill NM, 100% drop), would this be the new be-all, end-all offhand weapon for WAR?

Yes, definitely. 269 skill @ 2-hit > 250 skill (pre-suppa) @ 2-3 hit. 14 atk & 14 acc (I know someone's gonna come say "its not quite 1 per level...") will give war that definitive TP-gaining edge that allows us to confidently use atk foods in merit parties, particularly since we can max out 1h axe merits and have it apply to both hands rather than having a max of 4 merits in the offhand.

Would such a weapon being available to WARs give other jobs a shot at Ridill?

I think it would bump war down the priority order for Ridill a few slots. We still are the Ridill-equippable job with the highest rating in sword skill though.

 

[Skaw]

I think it would bump war down the priority order for Ridill a few slots. We still are the Ridill-equippable job with the highest rating in sword skill though.

Yeah, I honestly throw up a little when I hear BSTs talking about using Ridill. I mean.. 200 skill at 75, why bother.

 

[Ugotjacked]

I dont tihnk that a Double attack Axe would be that broken actually. What is a standard fully merited warriors double attack rate(With Brutal)? 20-25%? So it would only have 25% chance to double attack over base. Ridill would still be far superior with an average of double attack.

Not a warrior but I dont think it would break the game to much, Might be nice for melee HNM's.

 

[Laubibent]

Yeah, I honestly throw up a little when I hear BSTs talking about using Ridill. I mean.. 200 skill at 75, why bother.

just having it and saying you have it? ;p

 

[CmdrFly]

I dont tihnk that a Double attack Axe would be that broken actually. What is a standard fully merited warriors double attack rate(With Brutal)? 20-25%? So it would only have 25% chance to double attack over base. Ridill would still be far superior with an average of double attack.

Not a warrior but I dont think it would break the game to much, Might be nice for melee HNM's.

Correct, a fully decked and merited war has a max DA rate of about 25%. This theoretical weapon would still own Ridill seven ways to Sunday. Look at the typical equipment a fully equipped war would have:

Axe skill - max: 292
Base: 269
Merited: 285
Sea Torque: 292

Sword skill - max: 263
Base: 250
Merited: 258
Suppanomimi: 263

In the offhand, 29 levels of skill difference. I'd take a 292-skill weapon with occassional 2-hit over a 263-skill weapon with occasional 2-3 hit any day.

The ~6% TP you would be getting from a 3rd hit from Ridill would by far be overriden by your inherently higher accuracy with this theoretical weapon.

The only time I could see Ridill beating out this axe is if the war put 8 merits into sword and only 4 into axe. But I can't see any war doing that, unless they care more about pld / rdm / blu.

 

[Caerloc]

Correct, a fully decked and merited war has a max DA rate of about 25%. This theoretical weapon would still own Ridill seven ways to Sunday. Look at the typical equipment a fully equipped war would have:

Axe skill - max: 292
Base: 269
Merited: 285
Sea Torque: 292

Sword skill - max: 263
Base: 250
Merited: 258
Suppanomimi: 263

In the offhand, 29 levels of skill difference. I'd take a 292-skill weapon with occassional 2-hit over a 263-skill weapon with occasional 2-3 hit any day.

The ~6% TP you would be getting from a 3rd hit from Ridill would by far be overriden by your inherently higher accuracy with this theoretical weapon.

The only time I could see Ridill beating out this axe is if the war put 8 merits into sword and only 4 into axe. But I can't see any war doing that, unless they care more about pld / rdm / blu.

Any ridill war not going 8 sword-merits and 4 axe shouldnt get a ridill in the first place. >.>

 

[CmdrFly]

If this weapon existed, what would be the point? You're still looking at a max of 271 sword skill, 278 with sea torque, vs a potential 292 axe.

 

[Lavi]

Actually, if it did exist, wouldn't most WARs just use the axe in main-hand and off-hand a Ridill?