I have to Axe you a question

[annabelle]

The STR function in the damage formula takes about 3-4 STR to raise the "base damage" of your weapon by 1.
. . .
People overplay the significance of +STR because they aren't well informed about the way damage is calculated.

Can I ask where this info came from? I was always under the assumption that damage was roughly calculated as:

(WpnDmg + STR - mob'sVIT)*ATK/mob'sDEF

Under that formula, 1 STR would be as good as 1 base weapon damage, with the bonus that more STR increases your ATK stat as well. If this is incorrect, then I really need to update my understanding of this issue, and would appreciate any links to point me in the right direction.

 

[Lecan]

Also for the record, DPS is not always the best weapon choice. I had chosen to use Combat Casters Axe +2 while leveling warrior for quite awhile. I got the weapons at level 43 and used them until about level 55, when I got rampage. At first, I had always been able to get great DoT because of the much higher DPS and the added +attack of the weapons, but I also noticed my weapon skills lacked severely in damage because of the much lower base damage of the CC+2 versus mythril pick(+1). It became far more apparent when I got rampage which is why I sold them and got better axes. DoT isn't always the best choice especially when your weapon skill has huge spike damage like rampage. Seen some bad warriors with two axes and the highest base damage weapon was off-handed which I can never understand (maybe it was a mistake?).

Sort of why I am upgrading my axes. I noticed a significant different in my Rampage damage compared to other people using it. For the longest time I thought it was an accuracy issue (+33 accuracy in gear and sushi) and subbed my gimpy NIN30 to my BST in hopes that offhanding a Viking axe would boost my accuracy (and thus my damage). Alas, my Rampages were still only hitting 250 or so, 400 on a good day.

It wasn't long before I realized the answer was pretty simple: My weapon merely lacked the base damage required to put out bigger numbers on Rampage.

 

[Lavi]

Can I ask where this info came from? I was always under the assumption that damage was roughly calculated as:

(WpnDmg + STR - mob'sVIT)*ATK/mob'sDEF

Under that formula, 1 STR would be as good as 1 base weapon damage, with the bonus that more STR increases your ATK stat as well. If this is incorrect, then I really need to update my understanding of this issue, and would appreciate any links to point me in the right direction.

WS Data
You'll have to thank Mai Ikari for posting the original data.

Physical WS Damage Calculation:
WD: Base damage of your WS
D: Base damage of your weapon (e.g., Espadon = 43)
fSTR: difference between your STR and target's VIT
WSC: Secondary attribute like STR_30 (30% of your STR).
fTP: Multiplier (Please see chart below).
PDIF: (your ATK/target’s DEF)

WSC = integer(any secondary attributes) x @

Level @
Lv75... 0.83
Lv74... 0.83
Lv73... 0.84
Lv72... 0.84
Lv67... 0.86 or 0.87 (perhaps 0.87)
Lv60... 0.90 or 0.91 (perhaps 0.90)
Lv40... 0.94
Lv37... 0.94 -- 0.99
Lv31... 0.94 - 0.99

WD = (D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP

Sneak Attack with THF main
WD = (D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP + DEX + AGI

Actual Damage of WS is then calculated in this way.
Damage = WD * PDIF = ((D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

There is a lot more information in the actual post; however, I think this is the key part needed to answer your question.

Edit: It had always been my knowledge that it was a few points of STR equalled one base damage on a weapon, but this seems to contradict that and say 1 STR = 1 DMG. Maybe I am wrong, but it certainly seems to suggest 1 STR adds 1 base damage as far as the weapon skill is concerned.

 

[annabelle]

Yeah, that's what I thought. Most physical attacks I believe use just that formula but without the WSC modifier. The Wrath Tabar may have 1 point less base damage, but the extra +5 STR difference puts the Tabar 4 points ahead and increases your ATK by 2.5 while you're at it.

 

[Tagrineth]

No. fSTR is not 1:1. It's a FUNCTION.

http://decidence.co.nr/ Click on WS Data and scroll all the way down.

It takes around 4 STR to add one more DMG:. Most definitely not 1:1. This is SO EASY to show it is surprising to me that people believe it.

Likewise, ATK/DEF is also not a linear result, but a function (pDIF) whose actual result falls into ranges - which are the cause of the damage fluctuation that is always present.

The difference between the Wrath Tabar and Acha d'Armas is 1 DMG: and 4 STR, which means the two will more or less cancel each other out. The 30 delay on the Acha will boost its DoT significantly, while the STR 30% modifier will add all of 1 DMG, maybe 2, to the Tabar over the Acha, assuming all other gear is the same.

 

[Langly]

My vote: Acha.

 

[hellstorm]

actually it 3 str add 1 atk

 

[Tagrineth]

actually it 3 str add 1 atk

2 STR = 1 attack

3~4 STR = 1 DMG:

 

[annabelle]

Thanks for the link, Tagrineth. I don't know how the weapon damage is different when it comes to Monk's H2H gear, but one of these days when I'm bored I can whomp on some low-level bunnies with a couple different staves, see how the damage differs, and verify this for myself.

 

[Tagrineth]

Thanks for the link, Tagrineth. I don't know how the weapon damage is different when it comes to Monk's H2H gear, but one of these days when I'm bored I can whomp on some low-level bunnies with a couple different staves, see how the damage differs, and verify this for myself.

If you check Allakhazam's Monk forum you can find a few threads that discuss the formula (including glitches) used to calculate base, bare-fisted H2H damage. STR adds to H2H damage the exact same way it adds to any other weapon.

You can verify that fSTR isn't 1:1 by wearing progressively higher STR and watching your critical hits against an enemy whose defense you overwhelm significantly but has high enough VIT that your base STR (or even lowered STR if you can get your claws on some -STR gear) won't already cap fSTR.

Make sure you grab a weapon with very high DMG: so you can get the widest possible fSTR range (fSTR is tiered every ~9 or so DMG, if I'm not mistaken - Staves don't go past 90, but Primate Staff comes somewhat close, I *think* it's over 80).

Add STR and watch your average damage and especially your critical hit damage. It won't go up nearly as fast as a 1:1 function should.

 

[Phraust]

In my opinon, I personally would stick with the Tungi. It's super quick, and if you were to /nin, I would use that in your offhand. It's DPS is 9.46, which makes it almost as good as the A'dA, without the added effect of pulling hate. It's entirely up to you in the end, but to me, the "7 Deadly weapons" are not usually alll they are cracked up to be. On the bright side, you technically really only "rent" equiptment. you can always sell it back. and... The A'dA is Free, and really good to mainhand for it's base damage for WS.

 

[Tagrineth]

Tungi's DPS is almost as high as Acha's but its WS should be significantly weaker, which is the whole point.

 

[Lavi]

Yes, that's the point of getting the high base damage for the axe, the WS. It's been my observation that BSTs let their pet either die or kill the exp mob until a small sliver is left before releasing pet, and then use a WS to kill. Since the weapon skill is the final blow, it should be a strong finish to make sure it does indeed die. Tungi may have a good DPS or even higher than the Acha (it's not), but the 5 less base damage is huge when you are looking just at the weapon skill, especially a multi hit WS like rampage.

 

[Lecan]

Well, if I was still primarily soloing I wouldn't be worried about equip. Honestly, most good BST can solo with shitty equipment, since the pet does most of the work.

I party with friends quite a bit, which is why I keep my equipment very up to date and as high quality as I can afford. Thus the reason for wanting a better axe. Lavi is right. Tungi has great DPS, but the WS damage is shit. 150% TP Berserk rampage shouldn't be doing only 250-400 damage.

 

[Faule]

Acha D'armas, lower delay and more damage. plus less negative stats on everything else. Esspecially when soloing I don't think you'd enjoy the negatives.

But if you were to dual wield, would you use those two or look for something with maybe Acc+ in it? or even lower delay?

Feel free to test em out next time we party.

 

[Mishaela]

Just adding a minor comment - if 1 str = 1 base damage, Wrath Tabar (and all the Gigas items) would cost probably a dozen times more than they already do. Not to mention BRD's STR songs would cause freakish damage spikes...but yeah, this isn't the case, luckily.

But yeah...I've tried both axes, Acha really is better. And I'll repeat to people who apparently skimmed posts: the -agi/-vit only matter if you're getting hit, and if a BST's getting hit, they messed up somewhere along the way.


Lecan, I'm 2/3 Madkix. I'll gladly help y'camp it if needed.

 

[Tagrineth]

Lecan, I'm 2/3 Madkix. I'll gladly help y'camp it if needed.

What the hell? Ish having a high ratio on an NM? Blaspheme!