I quit. (post of the year)

MY g/f bought gil once and gave me 100k to help me get a new character started once. Am I a cheater? =(
 
I'd say that doesn't make you a cheater but it means you benefitted from one.
 
Dumb as a
IS264-079.jpg
 
Chasym said:
actual if you dont get the statement that everyone else has gotten, a very true inconvenient truth of a statement, i only see one dumb ass in here. YOU.
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Wow that wit sizzles about as much as a loaf of moldy bread.
 
Sneakypants said:
No. You've missed the point time and time again...

They helped in XP or any other fight as much as the next guy. Given that they could be replaced with a legit player and the same result can be had, where is the benefit of a hacker?
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Bingo. Just because a person has hacks installed on their computer, doesn't mean people will benefit them whenever the cheater is around.

I haven't read much of your arguement with Elemmire. But it sounds as if there is a cheater = everyone else benefits from them when they are around.




Honestly, you'll only benefit from a cheater when they cheat directly infront of you.

For an exp party example; the cheater is the puller and POS hacks monsters to the camp. THAT is bennefitting from a cheater.

Lets say a cheater is the tank and doesn't use his cheats during the exp party. Does everyone benefit from them? Of course not.





I don't know if this is what you're argueing, Chasym & Elemmire....But if you're saying people benefit from a cheater when they aren't cheating. Isn't that a little ass backwards?

Ok, nevermind. Just read a few of your key points Ele...Alls I gotts to say is double-u-tee-eff mate?
 
Dowzer said:
Bingo. Just because a person has hacks installed on their computer, doesn't mean people will benefit them whenever the cheater is around.

I haven't read much of your arguement with Elemmire. But it sounds as if there is a cheater = everyone else benefits from them when they are around.




Honestly, you'll only benefit from a cheater when they cheat directly infront of you.

For an exp party example; the cheater is the puller and POS hacks monsters to the camp. THAT is bennefitting from a cheater.

Lets say a cheater is the tank and doesn't use his cheats during the exp party. Does everyone benefit from them? Of course not.





I don't know if this is what you're argueing, Chasym & Elemmire....But if you're saying people benefit from a cheater when they aren't cheating. Isn't that a little ass backwards?

Ok, nevermind. Just read a few of your key points Ele...Alls I gotts to say is double-u-tee-eff mate?
Click to expand...
its not at all what we are arguing, and its been cleared up and stated a ton of different ways to make it clearer long before sneaky showed up and keeps interpreting it their own way.
Just because a hacker is there, doesnt mean you benefit from them.
what ive clearly stated time and time again is,
When your at an HNM camp or whatever, chances are you dont know theres a hacker in your shell somewhere, That hacker has probly claimed an HNM/NM while you were there, drops were distributed, you got an item. All because that hacker claimed it.
You have probly completed missions and quests thanks to the help of someone using hacks without your knowledge in your group, Your LS can have a rep on being good at claiming HNM/NM all the time and getting good drops, Yet it means nothing if a hacker is doing most of the claiming WITH hacks.
If the hacker is helping you get things, even without your knowledge of them using them, Then you are benefitting from them using those hacks, because they are claiming, you are recieving items/ranks/quest completions or whatever. You have benefitted from this in the game for sure in the past and you will again in the future. You associate and benefit from hackers in this manner without knowing it all the time. I mean i dont know how to dumb that down any more than i have, everyone else got it. whats so hard about it.
 
Chasym said:
its not at all what we are arguing, and its been cleared up and stated a ton of different ways to make it clearer long before sneaky showed up and keeps interpreting it their own way.
Just because a hacker is there, doesnt mean you benefit from them.
what ive clearly stated time and time again is,
When your at an HNM camp or whatever, chances are you dont know theres a hacker in your shell somewhere, That hacker has probly claimed an HNM/NM while you were there, drops were distributed, you got an item. All because that hacker claimed it.
You have probly completed missions and quests thanks to the help of someone using hacks without your knowledge in your group, Your LS can have a rep on being good at claiming HNM/NM all the time and getting good drops, Yet it means nothing if a hacker is doing most of the claiming WITH hacks.
If the hacker is helping you get things, even without your knowledge of them using them, Then you are benefitting from them using those hacks, because they are claiming, you are recieving items/ranks/quest completions or whatever. You have benefitted from this in the game for sure in the past and you will again in the future. You associate and benefit from hackers in this manner without knowing it all the time. I mean i dont know how to dumb that down any more than i have, everyone else got it. whats so hard about it.
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I perceived it a lot differently. A known hacker is in the group but isn't cheating, this is what I was referring to.

It's common knowledge that you can't tell if people are cheating all the time. I stated that like 50 pages back.

Sucks that you couldn't get even 1 ring to drop while Scwall and I saw 10+ without cheating.
 
Chasym said:
its not at all what we are arguing, and its been cleared up and stated a ton of different ways to make it clearer long before sneaky showed up and keeps interpreting it their own way.
Just because a hacker is there, doesnt mean you benefit from them.
what ive clearly stated time and time again is,
When your at an HNM camp or whatever, chances are you dont know theres a hacker in your shell somewhere, That hacker has probly claimed an HNM/NM while you were there, drops were distributed, you got an item. All because that hacker claimed it.
You have probly completed missions and quests thanks to the help of someone using hacks without your knowledge in your group, Your LS can have a rep on being good at claiming HNM/NM all the time and getting good drops, Yet it means nothing if a hacker is doing most of the claiming WITH hacks.
If the hacker is helping you get things, even without your knowledge of them using them, Then you are benefitting from them using those hacks, because they are claiming, you are recieving items/ranks/quest completions or whatever. You have benefitted from this in the game for sure in the past and you will again in the future. You associate and benefit from hackers in this manner without knowing it all the time. I mean i dont know how to dumb that down any more than i have, everyone else got it. whats so hard about it.
Click to expand...

what's so hard about it? Nobody but other cheaters want to win like that. That's the issue here. How many hackers ask their PT first? How many say, "hey I'm about to use hacks to help us win. Is that okay?" I've never heard that. If you don't give people the option to say "hell no, you're an ass" you cannot blame anyone for benefiting from someone cheating.

And if someone has benefitted unintentionally their win in that situation was meaningless because of the person who cheated. and that's why it really doesn't help anyone. Because if the people you are PT'ing with are playing for the challenge and you take the challenge away you take the meaning away with it. What's the difference between hacking and paying real money for an item? Nothing. The challenge is what makes it a game and playing by the rules it what makes it challenging. Why is this concept so hard to digest?
 
Dowzer said:
I perceived it a lot differently. A known hacker is in the group but isn't cheating, this is what I was referring to.

It's common knowledge that you can't tell if people are cheating all the time. I stated that like 50 pages back.

Sucks that you couldn't get even 1 ring to drop while Scwall and I saw 10+ without cheating.
Click to expand...
no i had rings drop, but they didnt go to me like i said, hayako or other atmas usually got em.
 
I don't care how often I may have benefited from hackers, no matter how indirectly. Heck, I had someone help me who I later learned was a hacker. No doubt the gear he had, and the free time to help me were thanks to his previous dubious deeds. His hacking gave him the time to help me acquire gear I could have asked the next guy to help me with.

Why I don't care is because, while I can't deny I might have benefited from someone else's hacks at times, I can easily add I've had plenty of times had to struggle more than usual because of competition using hacks. I've been outfarmed by a POS-hacker who appeared, one-shot, then warped out right before my eyes each time I approached a Goobbue. Yeah, like I have a chance...

Thankfully, I can somewhat compete with fishbots. There's no claim to compete against, so even with 50 bots, I can still catch some fish. Obviously, the pain comes later on the AH, when I try to sell my catch, whether raw or cooked. I've found a niche that works for me, but before I did, I had to farm like I was working in a sweatshop in order to merely get average gear.

So no thanks. I won't say "yay, I've had help thanks to haxxorz, thank you very much Mr. l33tb33t", because that hardly compensates for being told to "get with the program (literaly) or GTFO".

p.s. before edit lock : Sure, I never played end-game. But I have no intent to either. I leave that to those who can dedicate a lot of time to the game, or as made obvious in this topic, use or provide tools so they don't have to.

p.p.s. : we can edit posts in the flameboard now?
 
Zealot X said:
what's so hard about it? Nobody but other cheaters want to win like that. That's the issue here. How many hackers ask their PT first? How many say, "hey I'm about to use hacks to help us win. Is that okay?" I've never heard that. If you don't give people the option to say "hell no, you're an ass" you cannot blame anyone for benefiting from someone cheating.

And if someone has benefitted unintentionally their win in that situation was meaningless because of the person who cheated. and that's why it really doesn't help anyone. Because if the people you are PT'ing with are playing for the challenge and you take the challenge away you take the meaning away with it. What's the difference between hacking and paying real money for an item? Nothing. The challenge is what makes it a game and playing by the rules it what makes it challenging. Why is this concept so hard to digest?
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thats not my point tho, gah.
its cause so many people talk like they never got nothing from hacking, when just about everyone has if they know it or not. im not saying i dont agree with you, its just that my point and the way its being perceived doesnt match up. your associating and being helped by hacks every day just about, even if it isnt apparent or announced, and youll probly never know.
Simply put, the statement "I dont associate with cheaters and have never recieved any benefit from hacking/hackers" would be false for 99.9% of the games population

theres the other things to think of too, like the whole guilty by association thing that seems to be ok if it isnt you, but not ok if it is you, with most people thats usually the case. wasnt there an entire shell banned on another server because a few hacked, so that holds the whole shell accountable? i remember reading about that story on another shells forums linked from here.
think about it, there were people in OH who did not cheat or hack and didnt know we did, but because they were in OH they were called cheaters too just for being in the shell.
say tomorrow someone claims Nidhogg and it becomes public somehow that someone in the shell who claimed it was a cheater, that would put their entire shells legitamacy under question because of one person or two.
Thats just the way people react in this game, at least on our server anyway.
and how it would happen. So while the first generalization would leave the person innocent being that no one ever knows, the second someone finds out you were with X hacker when so and so was claimed and were in the party during the battle, youll come under question too. Though, that would seem to be quite rare as ive stated, hackers are not so fast to reveal themself if they are not obvious.
 
Chasym said:
its not at all what we are arguing, and its been cleared up and stated a ton of different ways to make it clearer long before sneaky showed up and keeps interpreting it their own way.
Just because a hacker is there, doesnt mean you benefit from them.
what ive clearly stated time and time again is,
When your at an HNM camp or whatever, chances are you dont know theres a hacker in your shell somewhere, That hacker has probly claimed an HNM/NM while you were there, drops were distributed, you got an item. All because that hacker claimed it.
You have probly completed missions and quests thanks to the help of someone using hacks without your knowledge in your group, Your LS can have a rep on being good at claiming HNM/NM all the time and getting good drops, Yet it means nothing if a hacker is doing most of the claiming WITH hacks.
If the hacker is helping you get things, even without your knowledge of them using them, Then you are benefitting from them using those hacks, because they are claiming, you are recieving items/ranks/quest completions or whatever. You have benefitted from this in the game for sure in the past and you will again in the future. You associate and benefit from hackers in this manner without knowing it all the time. I mean i dont know how to dumb that down any more than i have, everyone else got it. whats so hard about it.
Click to expand...

I really am confused how it's so hard to see.. I saw sneaky saying "I don't NEED the hackers to do it" and I agree.. no one needs the hacks.. not the hackers.. not SE, not the LS, not the RMT, no one. What we've been saying, that some don't seem to understand, is that chances are you've had aid from a hacker at some point during your FFXI career and you didn't know it. Personally, I don't know much about the hacks in FFXI other than a claim bot, POS, and flee hacks. I'm sure there are more though and most likely far less obvious to see as a person flee hacking or a POSer (lol) or even a voke botter (that can be tough sometimes with chat log lag or because they don't always get claim cause of other voke botters or because they have a poor connection or I dunno really..). And even if they weren't hacking at the time they helped you, they use hacks most of their time they would still be hackers in my eyes and just because they weren't hacking at the time, if they helped you acquire exp, an item, a mission/quest completion, whatever.. you still got aid from a hacker :P Ah well..
 
Chasym said:
thats not my point tho, gah.
its cause so many people talk like they never got nothing from hacking, when just about everyone has if they know it or not.
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Actually, I haven't but just for kicks let's pretend that I have. Whatever I gained that did not come by actually playing and overcoming challenges and obstacles I did not earn. Let me put it another way... Even if you created a weapon out of thin air, if you sold in on AH and I bought it then I earned it because the time and effort that I spent acquiring the gil earned me the right to that item. You, in this scenario, would have been the cheater but I would be the honest player. And what would the benefit of hacking be to me in this scenario (and others like it)? Absolutely nothing, because I could buy it from someone else just as easily. This is, I believe, the key point people are missing in Sneaky's argument.

** If it isn't necessary to win then it isn't benefitting or helping **

This is the same basic principle why I don't buy a game, give it to my friend, wait til they beat it, take it back, and then declare that I beat the game. ((I)) didn't beat shit. For some reason I think you understand this even though the principle may fly over the heads of some of the others.

Chasym said:
im not saying i dont agree with you, its just that my point and the way its being perceived doesnt match up. your associating and being helped by hacks every day just about, even if it isnt apparent or announced, and youll probly never know.
Simply put, the statement "I dont associate with cheaters and have never recieved any benefit from hacking/hackers" would be false for 99.9% of the games population.
Click to expand...

okay then, let me rephrase because semantics aside, the meaning is the same. "I don't associate with people I know who cheat to get an advantage and have never received any benefit from them." Not only that but I think you are over estimating the number of active hackers in the game like you are one of hundreds. I seriously doubt that and its not like they're man enough to come out of the closet. And a lot of us don't even participate in events that involve a lot of cheating and when we do... like I said before, some good players are lost because they get tired of trying to compete with cheaters. So many people have wasted so many hours camping just to be denied by code. And it's only going to get worse as these hackers get more and more advanced. It would only take one popular hack to destroy this game.
 
Chasym said:
theres the other things to think of too, like the whole guilty by association thing that seems to be ok if it isnt you, but not ok if it is you, with most people thats usually the case. wasnt there an entire shell banned on another server because a few hacked, so that holds the whole shell accountable? i remember reading about that story on another shells forums linked from here.
think about it, there were people in OH who did not cheat or hack and didnt know we did, but because they were in OH they were called cheaters too just for being in the shell.
say tomorrow someone claims Nidhogg and it becomes public somehow that someone in the shell who claimed it was a cheater, that would put their entire shells legitamacy under question because of one person or two.
Thats just the way people react in this game, at least on our server anyway.
and how it would happen. So while the first generalization would leave the person innocent being that no one ever knows, the second someone finds out you were with X hacker when so and so was claimed and were in the party during the battle, youll come under question too. Though, that would seem to be quite rare as ive stated, hackers are not so fast to reveal themself if they are not obvious.
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The fact is that it DOES put your shell into question if it is KNOWN. There is no way I can fault people who had no way of knowing. And I have no interest in calling out people who were just friends of yours. You are probably a very funny and amiable fellow. This isn't personal. This is about the game and so whether or not you help old ladies across the street is irrelevant.

What I'm stressing here is that although hacking is probably fun as hell, when you use it to your advantage in the game you are having that fun at the expense of the person you're competing with. They probably think its just as shitty as when you were at a disadvantage against JP or RMT cheaters. Now if you only did it against JPs or RMTs to even the field who you KNEW for a fact were cheating, even that let's see the results:

You 1) Cannot complain about any cheating they do and 2) Validate their tactics against you and the rest of us who either cannot or do not want to cheat. 3) They will develop bigger and better cheats just to counter yours which will increase their advantage over non-cheaters. 4) You put SE in a bind because how can they separate JP and RMT cheaters from people cheating to even the playing field without losing more money. You have to report and let SE deal with it. If anything you should have used hacking in order to prove the JPs and RMTs are doing it. That's white-hat, as you know. That would have been positive... even heroic.

Hackers exploiting holes in the game cause more harm than good. Players stop playing, get lazy, and code starts taking over the game. And the hacks will only evolve as in the case you mentioned about this windower replacement. Even you recognized that it was going too far and that it was a threat to the game. But do you understand how it got there? Hacking vs Hacking only leads to more. No one's going to stop hacking because they ran up against a better bot than theirs. That would only put them at an even greater disadvantage. Snowball effect. And here you are, saying this hack coming is really bad and can break the game, and you're still saying you want to contribute to hacking the game even after retirement. I hope you stick to hacking WoW.
 
OMG, I'm gone for a while and Chas comes out of the closet...

and with skeletons!

This thread is powerful, powerful indeed.

D=
 
i dont understand the way the thread is going right now...

you benefit from hackers when they are helping you....

you are disadvantaged when they are competing with you...

its a double-edged sword, you benefit and you lose, in the end you gain close to nothing. so why the argument?? It tastes great AND its less filling, both sides are correct.
 
Ok, I'm willing to concede to the possibility that all of us have claimed something/obtained this Dynamis win/this piece of gear, etc., via the advantage of someone hacking, however oblivious to it we might have been. I'll gladly concede that it's possible that I know and like someone who hacks without my knowledge.

Now tell me why it's so important that it's been a topic of discussion for so many pages.

Argument over the subjective meaning of the word "benefit" aside, what point are you trying to drive home by belaboring it so? That we're all cheaters? That we're all accomplices? Are you trying to label us all as hypocrites?

I'll tell you right now that I see a vast gulf of difference between associating with someone you know is hacking versus someone who looks clean.

The key word here is condone.

Does a player's/shell's integrity get called into question when someone with whom they associate gets outed as a hacker? Absolutely. Everyone not privy to the goings-on of that person/shell can make their assumptions based off of their own experiences, but the question will ultimately remain - did they know there was hacking?

That question in and of itself is something of a Catch 22. Responding "yes" means you condoned it, while "no" could mean you're either:

A) Telling the truth, or
B) A lying piece of crap.

Given the stigma associated with hacks by the majority of the MMO community, I bet you can guess which direction they're going to lean in. After all, cheating isn't hard for you. How hard is lying? All the benefit a non-cheater ever may have received, however unwittingly, forever tainted by a punkass who couldn’t be bothered to follow the rules.

We legit players can’t thank you all enough, you unsung Heroes of Hack, you Champions of the Cheat Code.

Frankly, most of the talk I'm hearing about hackers "Driving our Kids to School," comes off sounding like nothing more than the balm a cheater would use to soothe a wounded conscience.

P.S. I can’t help but think about what you said about us “not knowing you” in future MMO’s. Is that because you’re retiring the name “Chasym” and going back beneath the radar to hack some more? Give me a /wave some time. I won’t be hard to spot.

My name will be Reauland.

Edit: Changed "stigmata" to "stigma," as there are no miraculous crucifixion wounds associated with hacking :P
 
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Reauland said:
Ok, I'm willing to concede to the possibility that all of us have claimed something/obtained this Dynamis win/this piece of gear, etc., via the advantage of someone hacking, however oblivious to it we might have been. I'll gladly concede that it's possible that I know and like someone who hacks without my knowledge.

Now tell me why it's so important that it's been a topic of discussion for so many pages.

Argument over the subjective meaning of the word "benefit" aside, what point are you trying to drive home by belaboring it so? That we're all cheaters? That we're all accomplices? Are you trying to label us all as hypocrites?

I'll tell you right now that I see a vast gulf of difference between associating with someone you know is hacking versus someone who looks clean.

The key word here is condone.

Does a player's/shell's integrity get called into question when someone with whom they associate gets outed as a hacker? Absolutely. Everyone not privy to the goings-on of that person/shell can make their assumptions based off of their own experiences, but the question will ultimately remain - did they know there was hacking?

That question in and of itself is something of a Catch 22. Responding "yes" means you condoned it, while "no" could mean you're either:

A) Telling the truth, or
B) A lying piece of crap.

Given the stigmata associated with hacks by the majority of the MMO community, I bet you can guess which direction they're going to lean in. After all, cheating isn't hard for you. How hard is lying? All the benefit a non-cheater ever may have received, however unwittingly, forever tainted by a punkass who couldn’t be bothered to follow the rules.

We legit players can’t thank you all enough, you unsung Heroes of Hack, you Champions of the Cheat Code.

Frankly, most of the talk I'm hearing about hackers "Driving our Kids to School," comes off sounding like nothing more than the balm a cheater would use to soothe a wounded conscience.

P.S. I can’t help but think about what you said about us “not knowing you” in future MMO’s. Is that because you’re retiring the name “Chasym” and going back beneath the radar to hack some more? Give me a /wave some time. I won’t be hard to spot.

My name will be Reauland.
Click to expand...
My point is towards people who are so quick to speak that they have never gotten anything from hacking 1st or second hand.
it shouldnt have gotten to this since it was stated long ago in this thread and everyone got it, just out of nowhere sneaky comes in late as hell and interprets it completley different than how i stated it. Thats why i guess it got so heated the past few pages.

im not labeling anyone, because knowing if they knew about it or not is harder than knowing someone else hacked 1st hand for sure.

and i say you wont know me because "Chasym" was a name meant for this game only. I never played as that character before and it dies with this game, I was known as Comatose in other games, And X Comatose X. Anything i play on xbox will be CHASYM since i registered that name for xbox live and played FFXI off it till i could afford some other games, so thats about the only other place ill be "Chasym". I dont like using the same character names over and over in games, i like to change it up game to game. If that means dropping off the "radar", yeah i guess it will do that too.

and i need nothing to soothe my conscience, i was the same person before i played the game, during, and after. Different things and people in my life, but the same person over all. Hacking doesnt make me feel bad, especially in a video game. It never will. Maybe if i hacked an Atm like some of the local hackers have been doin around here, I would feel some guilt.
but in the situation of a video game, doesnt even inflict a scratch.
 
my point was more devils advocate than anything else really.. lol, also just pointing out to those that say "I've never done anything with a hacker, never have, never will, never gained anything from them" that they might not be so sure about that :P I agree, hackers piss me off, the only hacker I'd really tolerate are the ones that perhaps hack something just to test their own skills computer-wise, they don't do any harm to another, they don't actually benefit themselves with their hacks but they create a hack to test their skills. Or a hacker that uses a hack just to see what it's like (which I really don't consider a hacker if they only just get a hack to see what it's like but don't use it more than once or twice nor benefit from it).

Chasym seemed to be more of the hacker that hacked for the fun of it, not really benefitting it, but hacking to see what he can do, test himself, and created whatever hacks he can to test and work on his skill further. Assuming it's true he didn't hack to benefit himself (item-wise) at a NM or HNM or in a BCNM or whatever.. than the only thing I don't condone is him giving hacks to OH members and such which they used to cheat which hindered other players.

Honestly.. I really wouldn't give a rats ass about hackers or RMT if they didn't effect me. Most hackers, as I'm guessing, don't effect me or even others. If someone POS hacks or Fleehacks, it honestly doesn't effect you. Voke claiming is different, true, it effects you is it decreases your chances to get claim and gives them an unfair advantage in the competition. But in things where it's not a competition, say someone just doing a quest for themselves and has time problems so they need to get to a place that would normally take a long time (because of the run, no fighting problems or anything) and they can just POS to it.. I don't think its' right.. it does take some of the challenge out of the quest (well not really a challenge.. more of just time.).. if they hack during a BCNM, personally I'd think that's cheating themselves outta the fun of the challenge but it still doesn't effect me. I won't use those hacks so I'm not cheating myself outta what I find fun. Seriously.. would you guys still bitch if a hacker was only hacking to save time and not effecting anyone else other than him/herself?
 
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