I quit. (post of the year)

Thanks.That clears it up for me.

At the same time, I'm sure you can understand that there are many people, myself included, who would feel they'd been cheated were they to ever know beyond doubt that they'd acquired something through someone else's use of cheats.

And yes, I understand making a distinction as to what it is you're choosing to hack. I'm sure that practically everyone involved or viewing this discussion sees the difference between hacking a game and hacking an ATM, but I also hope you can see that there is still theft occurring whenever someone gains an unfair advantage by hacking - you're robbing others of their entertainment dollar.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think there might have even been some lawsuits and perhaps some legislation concerning people shouting out the ending of a movie to those waiting to see it. If I get a chance today, I'll try to dig something up.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that hackers be subject to litigation. I'm merely trying to point out a real-life example of what is happening to someone who's been cheated of a level playing field by a hacker.

To Elemmire:
And no, even though I still choose not to use them and think they cheapen your experience, I don't have nearly the problem of someone hacking like in the examples you provide. It's when it inconveniences another player that I get my hackles up.
 
Ellemire...
Even though I disagree with you in some areas I happen to like the exchange. I can respect your devil's advocate approach because I think many players need to see a balanced debate and not just a tsk tsk to hackers. This will help us as a community understand the pros and cons and make intelligent decisions about cheating.

Chasym cheated. He botted against people. He used speed hacks in situations where it would have given him an advantage. And he supplied hacks to cheaters in his own shell. Who's going to think that it wasn't done to benefit himself? Did he supply hacks to competing shells? Did he supply hacks to people camping NMs against him? I heard a little of the "just for fun" argument but that went out the window when he admitted to some other things. If you don't care about hacking the way others do because you don't see how it affects you, that's cool, but I don't see that as being reason enough to expect other players to share that view or not notice the effects of cheating.

And when it comes to your argument about them hacking to get around faster... if you're using the hacks I can see why you would try to make this argument. But the rules of the game are like the rules of physics in real life. The speed in which you can run is a law. One of the reasons a lot of players play THF is for "flee". But if anybody can run at that speed or faster then it takes away from benefits of being a (real) THF. Again, what if all jobs could hack to get utsusemi or phalanx? The game's balance relies on setting limitations like this; even running speed. If I pull aggro where people could normally not outrun the mob I should die. That's life. And it is unfair to the players that DO die and lose xp and who DO have to run 15-20 more minutes if all I have to do is cheat.

Think about it this way... If you can cut down your travel time you get more done than a normal player. That's an unfair advantage. You can progress faster in the game by using all these cheating tactics and that makes it unfair. So what if you don't have as much time to play? What about the guy who has just as much time as you and who doesn't cheat? Anyway you slice it there is no valid reason to cheat. Play at your own pace according to your own skill. The game is about what YOU can do, not what a piece of code can do.
 
Chasym...
The entire argument that "you've probably done something with a hacker before" is completely irrelevant and I don't want to give it too much relevance by wasting a lot of time on it. Most players cannot detect a lot of the hacks that aren't obvious because we don't know about them. And if a hacker helps you without hacking it is no different from a regular player and thus you received no benefit from that person being a hacker. That was sneaky's point. Hackers do not benefit us because the challenge is important to the game. If cry babies want to complain FFXI is too hard then they can go play WoW. Otherwise there's no reason to cheat.

My main point is that games are about challenges and the rules are what enforces the challenge and if you cheat to lessen the challenge or avoid it you are really playing your own game, not FFXI. RMTs who cheat are also not really playing. This doesn't mean you don't have fun. You're just having fun your own way outside the actual "game".

Hacking itself isn't always bad. When it comes to hacking (in general) it is something I've always wished I could do. Hacking in itself is a game because the security of a system provides the challenge. That then makes it fun. And you can hack to exploit or hack to let the system admin know about the holes and offer help to fix them. That is the way in which hackers 'benefit' the communities they hack in. Hacking itself is not evil. I think its pretty cool if you can do it. A lot of people who play this game are a little on the 'geeky' side anyway so the idea of hacking is like candy to them; hence the danger.
 
To all...
Because there are really two kinds of hackers, one beneficial and one detrimental, we have to be careful in how we handle "hacking". I don't want to drive all hackers underground. I would rather try to persuade them to go white-hat and help us fight against the exploitive hacking that ruins the game for us. White-hat hackers in general are not the ones writing massive viruses and trojans to hijack your PC and thus your internet experience. And if hackers simply try to OUT-black-hat the JPs and RMT cheaters who are doing it for an unfair advantage the results will be catastrophic. Better hacks will be developed and eventually one or two with the potential to destroy the game. I mean honestly... how many games have you used an invicible code in? Probably quite a few. But how long was it fun without the threat of death? And what did it mean when you beat a level? Was it your mad skills that beat it? Or was it code?

White-hat hackers...
You would be the heroes of the game and the only hackers providing a benefit to real players. You would not even have to hide your identities because we would respect what you do. Even if you cheated before and enjoyed the challenge of overcoming SE's security there is a way to use your hacking that is even MORE fun. Hack AGAINST the cheaters by getting their IPs, identifying the hacks they're using, and give SE a way to get rid of them. And if they're having trouble doing it maybe this is where you can come in. Instead of thinking up ways to make better exploitations which will naturally provoke them into doing the same, turn it around and make code or tools to identify hackers, bots, etc. Take away their anonymity. You, white-hat hacker, are the cure.

back-hat hackers...
you just suck. Maybe you don't realize the chain of events you're causing but it is wrecking the game. Stop being part of the cause and start being part of the solution.

hacker wannabes and script kiddies...
You want to see what a hack does? Want to be super cool dude and say you hacked FFXI? Okay. Go to an area where no one goes or does anything in, including farming, try out some hacks. Flee, POS, whatever. Get it out of your system. And if you get caught accept your punishment. All the items you have obtained and the leveling and missions and quests you did on that character could be lost because they might delete your account. Risky, yeah. But at least you'll get to be a hacker. Just don't use it to gain an advantage over anyone, including other suspected cheaters. And just try it out. Don't go using it like its a part of the game. Other than that, don't buy hacks and don't support cheaters. And if you catch someone cheating they're not really helping you and chances are they're contributing to the game being harder for you. So either turn them into SE or out them on QCDN.
 
Chasym said:
just out of nowhere sneaky comes in late as hell and interprets it completley different than how i stated it. Thats why i guess it got so heated the past few pages.
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LOL! wtf are you even talking about?
Yeah I haven't been reading the entire thread and posting throughout as I find time.
Riiiiight.
Keep blaming others. That's a strong leg to stand on for sure.

How many times do I need to say I understand what you've been saying since page one? Nobody can falsely interpret the same and only thing you've said this entire time and for this many pages.

You've yet to even respond to some key points that myself and others have brought up. It's pretty clear you have no intention to do so. I wanted a couple things answered and discussed in this thread...Your only response to such inquiries has been, "But that's not my point..."

Yes, we all know your point well and good. These are called new points.

Don't worry about answering at this point. It is obvious you just won't.
Several others have contacted me in game thanking me for tossing out perspectives they share. I understand them for not wanting to get involved in fruitless discussion.
 
Zealot X said:
Ellemire...
Even though I disagree with you in some areas I happen to like the exchange. I can respect your devil's advocate approach because I think many players need to see a balanced debate and not just a tsk tsk to hackers. This will help us as a community understand the pros and cons and make intelligent decisions about cheating.

Chasym cheated. He botted against people. He used speed hacks in situations where it would have given him an advantage. And he supplied hacks to cheaters in his own shell. Who's going to think that it wasn't done to benefit himself? Did he supply hacks to competing shells? Did he supply hacks to people camping NMs against him? I heard a little of the "just for fun" argument but that went out the window when he admitted to some other things. If you don't care about hacking the way others do because you don't see how it affects you, that's cool, but I don't see that as being reason enough to expect other players to share that view or not notice the effects of cheating.

And when it comes to your argument about them hacking to get around faster... if you're using the hacks I can see why you would try to make this argument. But the rules of the game are like the rules of physics in real life. The speed in which you can run is a law. One of the reasons a lot of players play THF is for "flee". But if anybody can run at that speed or faster then it takes away from benefits of being a (real) THF. Again, what if all jobs could hack to get utsusemi or phalanx? The game's balance relies on setting limitations like this; even running speed. If I pull aggro where people could normally not outrun the mob I should die. That's life. And it is unfair to the players that DO die and lose xp and who DO have to run 15-20 more minutes if all I have to do is cheat.

Think about it this way... If you can cut down your travel time you get more done than a normal player. That's an unfair advantage. You can progress faster in the game by using all these cheating tactics and that makes it unfair. So what if you don't have as much time to play? What about the guy who has just as much time as you and who doesn't cheat? Anyway you slice it there is no valid reason to cheat. Play at your own pace according to your own skill. The game is about what YOU can do, not what a piece of code can do.
Click to expand...


I understand that, but if a hacker honestly is hacking with hacks that only effect his GAME play and not mine? I'm fine with that.. it doesn't effect me, it isn't in my realm of concern. If there's a chance it effects my gameplay I'll prolly get pissed too because there's a chance it will. But honestly, if it doesn't effect me or have a chance of effecting me, I won't have a problem with it. Most people are saying "ok, if you hack a single player game that's fine" why? Because it only effects them and their gameplay.. if they hack online and it only effects their gameplay and only effects them, why get all bitchy about it? True, there are hackers that hack and it effects another's gameplay online, those hackers are annoying, I don't like them. Supplying hacks to others, I have a problem with that too, I lost respect for chasym hearing that (and loled at the idiots that couldn't find the hacks themselves)

Sure, they run faster and gives them an advantage in their gameplay over a normal player.. but if a hacker hacks a single player game than they are going to have an advantage in that game over someone who plays it normally.. I just don't see why bitch about a hacker if they don't effect you or your gameplay. Do you NEED to keep comparing yourself to others? do you need to make this game of enjoyment out to be a competition in everything? ZOMG HE GOT TO 75 BEFORE ME, COMPLETED QUESTS AND MISSIONS BEFORE ME! who cares? Honestly.. if it doesn't effect you, why care? That's my point. For the hackers that voke bot, that's gay, it is effecting your gameplay because it's decreasing your chances of getting the monster.. same with if they flee hack a monster like fafnir or tiamat or whatever for some stupid reason...cause that increases their chances of winning which means it decreases your chances of getting claim if they die. That's not fair (now if they flee hacked only Gods let's say, I wouldn't have a problem with that assuming they got all the pop items fairly and they weren't in my LS decreasing the challenge for me which I find fun. Their LS wants to hack with Gods? fine, whatever, as long as they don't hack to steal another's god I don't care. All endgame players agree that if a LS is going to wipe to a God that it's their God and it should depop anyways not taken by another LS unless the first LS that wiped gave permission to the other LS. Same with if a LS hacked in a BCNM and I'm not there. I might find it funny, but I won't really have a problem with it. It's their BCNM, they got the seals for it, their mob their claim, theirs to win or lose to and either way, it's not going to be anyone elses after.)

I just think too many people bitch about hackers in general and if they are going to bitch about a hacker who doesn't effect their gameplay at all and not about the hacker that hacks a single player game.. well I think that's rather hypocritical in a way. If they aren't effecting you, don't bitch. Though, in general I'd say you shouldn't bitch at all. You should report to a GM and hope, but all these threads where people just bitch and bitch about hackers running the tired old reasons why they are annoyed with hackers.. the same reason everyone of us who doesn't hack are tired of hackers.. it gets tiresome.. we know they're fucking over our chances at fun and challengnig, you don't need to bitch about it all over the forums the same crap you have been. Get a damn live journal or blog or whatever for that.

Zealot X said:
You want to see what a hack does? Want to be super cool dude and say you hacked FFXI? Okay. Go to an area where no one goes or does anything in, including farming, try out some hacks. Flee, POS, whatever. Get it out of your system. And if you get caught accept your punishment. All the items you have obtained and the leveling and missions and quests you did on that character could be lost because they might delete your account. Risky, yeah. But at least you'll get to be a hacker. Just don't use it to gain an advantage over anyone, including other suspected cheaters. And just try it out. Don't go using it like its a part of the game. Other than that, don't buy hacks and don't support cheaters. And if you catch someone cheating they're not really helping you and chances are they're contributing to the game being harder for you. So either turn them into SE or out them on QCDN.
Click to expand...

That is what I did XD I don't consider it part of the game so I don't care to play my game with it, I never did. I just was curious, saw, said "meh, gets boring" and stopped in about 5 mintues. But I won't care if others are using them for their own gameplay where it doesn't effect mine.. if I did care about other people cheating cause it changes their personal gameplay and no one elses... than I might as well care about people who cheat/hack in a single player game.

Reauland said:
To Elemmire:
And no, even though I still choose not to use them and think they cheapen your experience, I don't have nearly the problem of someone hacking like in the examples you provide. It's when it inconveniences another player that I get my hackles up.
Click to expand...

exactly, that's when I think you should get annoyed by a hacker, when it does inconvenience you or another player. It's cheapening your experience with the game and not at your control, that is unfair. I agree, completely, I wish more thought that way.
 
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Chasym said:
and i say you wont know me because "Chasym" was a name meant for this game only. I never played as that character before and it dies with this game, I was known as Comatose in other games, And X Comatose X. Anything i play on xbox will be CHASYM since i registered that name for xbox live and played FFXI off it till i could afford some other games, so thats about the only other place ill be "Chasym". I dont like using the same character names over and over in games, i like to change it up game to game. If that means dropping off the "radar", yeah i guess it will do that too.
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So if you met someone from your old ls in another game, you wouldnt tell them you were chasym, even though they may not want to play with you at all, since you sold them out? Granted almost everyone agrees that it is good you outted cheaters, but you did betray your friends. My question is, why dont you want people to know that its you? You keep saying things like you arent ashamed and it was for fun, yet apparantly your going to hide behind another name. If its just a game, then why hide yourself?
 
Sirelrohir said:
So if you met someone from your old ls in another game, you wouldnt tell them you were chasym, even though they may not want to play with you at all, since you sold them out? Granted almost everyone agrees that it is good you outted cheaters, but you did betray your friends. My question is, why dont you want people to know that its you? You keep saying things like you arent ashamed and it was for fun, yet apparantly your going to hide behind another name. If its just a game, then why hide yourself?
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depends on who it is, if i see em ill let em know. i only have a handful of true friends left in this game, and those who quit long ago. if i see em, theyll know who i am.

also just got my letter from POL, BANNED!! WOOO!! framed it!
 
Chasym said:
depends on who it is, if i see em ill let em know. i only have a handful of true friends left in this game, and those who quit long ago. if i see em, theyll know who i am.

also just got my letter from POL, BANNED!! WOOO!! framed it!
Click to expand...

What if its one of the people that you sold out? I'm sure they would want to know more so then one of your 'true friends'. If anything so they can stay away from you.
 
why would i care to talk to them? anyone outed from there, i have reasons for. they didnt act like friends if it didnt benefit them, And cyronaes always being AFK when something important came up deserved it as well, i mean she even refused to answer my tells before, but was talking in LS at the same time before falling silent. She deserved it too, Everyone agreed with me that knew her in that dept.
There were even people who would log on to a mule when she wouldnt reply, and send her a tell for a pt invite and she would usually reply not knowing who it was.
She would promise things and go fake AFK when the time came. One reason for her,
anyone else it was like "im your friend if you help me/give me hacks/ make sure it benefits me" but when it was something that you needed help with that really was only to help just you out, Everyone was suddenly AFK or too busy. it was like that my entire stay in OH, and it came back to them in the end. use me for hacks, get exposed. i mean if they got exposed they werent really friends to me like they pretended to be in game on occasion.
I still have friends in the game i would talk to, but why would i want to talk to "friends" who were only "friends" when they needed something from me?

and what if they do find out who i am? what are they gonna do about it, Call a GM on me for nothin they can prove just because im playing that game? Blist me? yell at me? it wouldnt make a difference either way, but no i would have no reason to say anything to anyone who was a false friend to me.
 
Something I'd like to point out from your last post.

I know that there's some people with the attitude you're describing on both sides of the fence, but I very strongly suspect that you'll find substantially more of them on the side that condones hacking.

Think of it this way: They don't have a problem using a hack for an unfair advantage. They also don't have a problem using other people when it's to their advantage either.

Yeah, I know. It's a real shocker.
 
Chasym said:
why would i care to talk to them? anyone outed from there, i have reasons for. they didnt act like friends if it didnt benefit them, And cyronaes always being AFK when something important came up deserved it as well, i mean she even refused to answer my tells before, but was talking in LS at the same time before falling silent. She deserved it too, Everyone agreed with me that knew her in that dept.
There were even people who would log on to a mule when she wouldnt reply, and send her a tell for a pt invite and she would usually reply not knowing who it was.
She would promise things and go fake AFK when the time came. One reason for her,
anyone else it was like "im your friend if you help me/give me hacks/ make sure it benefits me" but when it was something that you needed help with that really was only to help just you out, Everyone was suddenly AFK or too busy. it was like that my entire stay in OH, and it came back to them in the end. use me for hacks, get exposed. i mean if they got exposed they werent really friends to me like they pretended to be in game on occasion.
I still have friends in the game i would talk to, but why would i want to talk to "friends" who were only "friends" when they needed something from me?

and what if they do find out who i am? what are they gonna do about it, Call a GM on me for nothin they can prove just because im playing that game? Blist me? yell at me? it wouldnt make a difference either way, but no i would have no reason to say anything to anyone who was a false friend to me.
Click to expand...

Cyro was a guy, Chasym.
 
Chasym said:
why would i care to talk to them? anyone outed from there, i have reasons for. they didnt act like friends if it didnt benefit them, And cyronaes always being AFK when something important came up deserved it as well, i mean she even refused to answer my tells before, but was talking in LS at the same time before falling silent. She deserved it too, Everyone agreed with me that knew her in that dept.
There were even people who would log on to a mule when she wouldnt reply, and send her a tell for a pt invite and she would usually reply not knowing who it was.
She would promise things and go fake AFK when the time came. One reason for her,
anyone else it was like "im your friend if you help me/give me hacks/ make sure it benefits me" but when it was something that you needed help with that really was only to help just you out, Everyone was suddenly AFK or too busy. it was like that my entire stay in OH, and it came back to them in the end. use me for hacks, get exposed. i mean if they got exposed they werent really friends to me like they pretended to be in game on occasion.
I still have friends in the game i would talk to, but why would i want to talk to "friends" who were only "friends" when they needed something from me?

and what if they do find out who i am? what are they gonna do about it, Call a GM on me for nothin they can prove just because im playing that game? Blist me? yell at me? it wouldnt make a difference either way, but no i would have no reason to say anything to anyone who was a false friend to me.
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I dont think anyone would call a gm on you. Just for avoidance sakes. I'm sure these people feel the same about you as you do about them. I just wasnt sure where you were going with the whole 'im changing my name in other games so you might play with me and not even realize it' deal. Because alot of people may not want to play with you. Whether its your old ls, or people from qcdn.
 
Only you Black, only you.. lol.

No, I was friends with Cyro a very long time ago. We played much of our early days in the game together. Towards the time we stopped talking was when he joined OH, and became very reclusive. Also the same time he started claiming he was female.
 
Mistra said:
Only you Black, only you.. lol.

No, I was friends with Cyro a very long time ago. We played much of our early days in the game together. Towards the time we stopped talking was when he joined OH, and became very reclusive. Also the same time he started claiming he was female.
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No comment lol. Cyronae was always talked to and treated like a woman in my 7 months in OH. /confusedashell
 
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matchuu said:
No comment lol. Cyronae was always talked to and treated like a woman in my 7 months in OH. /confusedashell
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No one is a female on the internet unless they're ready to turn their webcam on, I'm afraid.
 
Mistra said:
No, I was friends with Cyro a very long time ago. We played much of our early days in the game together. Towards the time we stopped talking was when he joined OH, and became very reclusive. Also the same time he started claiming he was female.
Click to expand...

Mistra I don't even know who you are so where are you getting all of this information? If you are going to go your route that is fine; but at least have some backing.

Now as for Chasym; where is this hatred coming up? Because I supposedly never helped you with anything? No offense but you tried to pin this on Outerheaven, Antares and Rise about how nobody helped you. You eventually get fed up and come up with some brilliant post outting all these people and is now quickly losing steam. You mixed in alot of claims that will never be proven among that which is true. So with that being said; work in fact rather than fiction. It will help you to stay in the spotlight a bit more. Cyro~
 
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