Ice Age of Gil

[Blackmagik]

taken from BG Forumies

With stuff going down and down is there an end?


Lets look into the average pocket of someone towards Endgame:

- 1-2x Limbus a week: 50k each
- 1-2x Dynamis a week: 16k-30k each
- Chocobo Costs for 1 week: hard to tell but sums up

All that gil is "lost" for the playerbase and taken out of the economy. On the other side the gil NPCs hand out isnt really much. Sure there are 100k rank 10 awards but that doesnt even last one week for people beeing active with dynamis and limbo.

The most gil you can get from NPCs regularly are Avatar fights for 10k each. All the ToAU ppl just hand out their own currency as reward.

They added all that stuff to get rid of gil - and it really worked over the months. But seeing all this I get the feeling there is no way to stop the gil drain unless SE really changes something. Maybe let you enter Dynamis on ToAU currency >>;

Will Limbo and Dynamis become a "rich ppl only" hobby?
Will ppl set up Avatar run days to get gils for it? lol


Any input?

 

[Artem]

If you can't afford 160k a week to do dynamis and limbus, you are playing the game wrong or something. I mean hell you can sell two coins a week from limbus and that will pay 90k-100k of your limbus expense.

 

[Blabj]

I think the question really is, with rapid deflation of markets currently (gilsellers banning) will there be enough gil in circulation in the future to carry on doing said events?

In which case, yes there will.

 

[Lavi]

I can see how this is a problem. At the moment, there are no repeatable quests worth doing for a majority of end-gamers since questing just gets more fame and fame is ultimately worthless unless you want cheaper items from NPC or to fight avatars. Although, I think he's grasping and that the economy has a long ways to go before it'll be completely devoid of gil, his point is still true nonetheless. The amount of gil leaving the system far exceeds (at least for me it does) the amount entering. I do Limbus and dynamis bi-weekly and I have maybe 5k gil tops coming into the system from NPC'ed items and occasionally another 5k from killed beastmen mobs. The real problem with gil loss; however, isn't me or any player, but instead gil sellers. Gil sellers seem to stockpile mass amounts of gil and when they get banned, the gil is deleted along with the characters. While, I'd say a majority of the decrease in prices is due to them, the increasing amount of players doing dynamis and limbus are only helping further the decline. I personally wouldn't worry about it though, I am sure by the time we get to having so little gil in the economy that it's impossible to do dynamis/limbus, most of us will have quit by then.

 

[Lavi]

If you can't afford 160k a week to do dynamis and limbus, you are playing the game wrong or something. I mean hell you can sell two coins a week from limbus and that will pay 90k-100k of your limbus expense.

The whole point really flew by you, didn't it? :shok:

 

[Blabj]

As pointed out in the thread though, NPCing items brings gil back into circulation, does does gil drops from Beastmen and NMs/HNMs/BCNMs/KSNMs/ENMs, so it's not all doom and gloom on that part.

 

[Lavi]

As pointed out in the thread though, NPCing items brings gil back into circulation, does does gil drops from Beastmen and NMs/HNMs/BCNMs/KSNMs/ENMs, so it's not all doom and gloom on that part.

It takes 130k minimum to do dynamis and limbus twice a week. How much NPCing, beastmen kills, HNMs, etc. are you doing to get 130k back? I don't know about you, but I guess at most, I am giving 10k back into the economy. I don't have much stuff to NPC these days and I haven't even included any of the items I occasionally buy from NPC as well (some food, crafting materials, etc.). I'd have to farm for days and days to get 130k back into the system. I don't know about gil sellers, I am sure they probably NPC a ton of items, but I don't see how it can add up at all. Most items that are NPCable for more than 1k are usually rare so you can only hold one and everything else seems to be worth 50 gil or less.

 

[Dowzer]

Goddamn Tonberry Priest taken my tree fitty.

 

[Artem]

The whole point really flew by you, didn't it? :shok:

No, I think my whole point flew by your head. I was commenting on the specific line


Will Limbo and Dynamis become a "rich ppl only" hobby?


Just because I didn't comment on the whole post doesn't mean I didn't get what he was saying. But since you need me to make a full comment here:

SE is not completely retarded, they will not let the economy deplete, the money will be inserted back into the circulation when SE deems necessary. The gil sink of dynamis an limbus without NPC payout has been there for a long time and will still be there for a long time before it makes any difference. The reason you are seeing deflation is because of the lost gilseller gil and items. There was inflation when dynamis and limbus where gil sinks. It's not like before this deflation there were repeatable money quests that got removed. The deflation is here because enough people complained about how economy was fucked up with the gilsellers, and now those same retards are complaining how it's fucked without the gilsellers. Some people just can't be happy with what they have.

There, reply to his full post, happy?

oh yeah he had one more question... no people will not do avatars for gil

 

[Blabj]

Well, you gotta remember it's not me that'll be killing HNMs/BCNMs/ENMs (blah blah blah) it's the entire community.

Aslong as there are people doing them, they'll be making money. You gotta remember that of the approximately 5,000 people that'll play every day, they will probably kill atleast something that drops gil, thus putting money back into circulation.

 

[Bajaratt]

It takes 130k minimum to do dynamis and limbus twice a week. How much NPCing, beastmen kills, HNMs, etc. are you doing to get 130k back? I don't know about you, but I guess at most, I am giving 10k back into the economy. I don't have much stuff to NPC these days and I haven't even included any of the items I occasionally buy from NPC as well (some food, crafting materials, etc.). I'd have to farm for days and days to get 130k back into the system. I don't know about gil sellers, I am sure they probably NPC a ton of items, but I don't see how it can add up at all. Most items that are NPCable for more than 1k are usually rare so you can only hold one and everything else seems to be worth 50 gil or less.

The only way that we would see an actual gil shortage is if we played for the next 20 years and nothing was ever done. Yeah, it's potentially a problem in a decade or two, but it's no where near serious or really even worth consideration. If you make your living off the money created by beastmen drops, NM kills, or npcing items, then yes this could be a problem for you; the rest of us know how to make more than 10k a day and aren't effected by this at all.

 

[Mattaru]

SE is not completely retarded, they will not let the economy deplete, the money will be inserted back into the circulation when SE deems necessary.

 

[Uzor]

last year alone I took over 7,1 mil gil out of the system through Limbus and Dynamis.

I highly doubt I gave even 1/1000th of that back through NPC sold items etc.

From the start, untill new year, GTC removed mil gil from the economy. That's 1 roughly 90 mil gil in a year.

I'm guessing other linkshells spend roughly 90 mil gil per year in Dynamis runs too.

This is not considering all of the gil lost through relic weapon upgrading. One relic weapon costs roughly 160 mil gil in currency alone with the current prices, and some servers have as many as 19 relic weapons. That's 4,640,000,000 gil alone from relic weapons, assuming a relic weapon costs exactly 160 mil gil ot make.

And that's excluding the gil lost every month through RMT bannings.

however, there's also a lot of gil entering the economy. People lvling new jos outside cities, new players lvling, and everyone doing ENM battles. Also random NM's that drop gil, and new players ranking up + old players ranking up new nations.

There's also people leveling on giants outside Qufim, and people leveling on gobs in Yhoator/Yuhtunga. Additionally, there's people killing gobs and orcs while leveling through areas like Monastic Cavern, Labyrinthot Onzozo and Bibiki Bay.

There's also a lot of people that buy stuff off of the AH, like certain spells and Dynamis drops (I'm sure you all know which I mean) and sell those for a small but fast profit.

With over 3000 players on the server, if everyone killed just 1 gob per day, that results in over 30k gil entering the economy, and I'm sure people do more then 1 thing which results in gil being added over an entire week.

 

[Prothall]

I think that the server naturally experiences inflation and has been most of the time since the release of the game. Only recently it has been hindered by bannings and such. But hell, i wouldn't mind some deflation and some bannings of GSers.

 

[Uzor]

I think that the server naturally experiences inflation and has been most of the time since the release of the game. Only recently it has been hindered by bannings and such. But hell, i wouldn't mind some deflation and some bannings of GSers.

Only reason prices deflated was because SE removed roughly 3 billion gil from the game every month by banning gil sellers. Once the bannings decrease. more gil will be added then is removed again.

 

[meeze]

This is not considering all of the gil lost through relic weapon upgrading. One relic weapon costs roughly 160 mil gil in currency alone with the current prices, and some servers have as many as 19 relic weapons. That's 4,640,000,000 gil alone from relic weapons, assuming a relic weapon costs exactly 160 mil gil ot make.\

relic weapons dont take gil out of the economy, they take dynamis currency out of the market. the gil spent on currency is in the peoples hands who sold the currency to the upgrader.

As for the OP, he reminds me of the rank 10 NIN I had in qufim the other day, trying to sell the party his shield earrings because he was broke.

They need to up the XP needed, take away rings, take away XP bonuses, and let people learn to survive for a bit longer before showing up to XP parties with dual Rune axes and not knowing why the latent don't show up.

 

[Lavi]

No, I think my whole point flew by your head. I was commenting on the specific line

Will Limbo and Dynamis become a "rich ppl only" hobby?

Just because I didn't comment on the whole post doesn't mean I didn't get what he was saying. But since you need me to make a full comment here:

SE is not completely retarded, they will not let the economy deplete, the money will be inserted back into the circulation when SE deems necessary. The gil sink of dynamis an limbus without NPC payout has been there for a long time and will still be there for a long time before it makes any difference. The reason you are seeing deflation is because of the lost gilseller gil and items. There was inflation when dynamis and limbus where gil sinks. It's not like before this deflation there were repeatable money quests that got removed. The deflation is here because enough people complained about how economy was fucked up with the gilsellers, and now those same retards are complaining how it's fucked without the gilsellers. Some people just can't be happy with what they have.

There, reply to his full post, happy?

oh yeah he had one more question... no people will not do avatars for gil

You didn't quote anything so the reasonable assumption is you meant the whole post. That aside, you originally missed the point. If there isn't enough gil in the server for everyone then not everyone can do those things which take gil directly out of the system. It's not a matter of rich or poor or lazy people who won't farm. Imagine you have a game of poker between a bunch of friends. All of sudden one guy is winning all the money and then the next, that same person has to leave and takes the money with him. If everyone has a dime to their name and it's a 25 cent anti, I don't think you'll be playing poker much longer. So how are you going to earn the 15 cents to play if no one has 15 cents to spare? That's why your post about someone not earning 130k was stupid. It's not a matter of earning, it's a matter of earning something that isn't there.

SE is competant? Did you just start yesterday? Did you miss last Christmas? Two and a half years to even admit that gil sellers are a problem. 3 years to finally fix an economy complete ravaged by sellers and rampant inflation. Yah, SE isn't retarded...

Recently, everyone has obtained at the very least 1 level 75 job. There are still a few new players who have none, but for the most part, those people are not very common and instead are in the minority. I would wager pre-ToA, that wasn't the case. Now, Limbus and dynamis are common events for the average player and are more of a serious gil sink than pre-ToA. It's not a huge problem, they were built into the game for the purpose of being a gil sink, but now that gil is leaving the system at faster rates, it's more of an issue. When they were first introduced, inflation was a huge rampant problem. Today, deflation is the norm and removing more and more gil only adds to the deflation.

The only way that we would see an actual gil shortage is if we played for the next 20 years and nothing was ever done. Yeah, it's potentially a problem in a decade or two, but it's no where near serious or really even worth consideration. If you make your living off the money created by beastmen drops, NM kills, or npcing items, then yes this could be a problem for you; the rest of us know how to make more than 10k a day and aren't effected by this at all.

I didn't say it would be a huge issue alone, I think the guy is probably a little paranoid. However, considering every time SE bans gil sellers, huge amounts of gil are reportedly deleted, it's not helping the situation. If given the choice, I'd rather see a stable economy rather than deflation or inflation.

The bolded part is actually flawed. Earning gil through beastmen isn't getting worse, it's getting better. Since the gil dropped by beastmen is static and deflation is lowering values, the relative amount they drop is becoming more and more valuable. Although, it'll probably never be a good way to earn gil, it is increasingly becoming a more viable source of revenue. If the server was ever to become devoid of gil, then this would actually be the best method to earn gil.

Well, you gotta remember it's not me that'll be killing HNMs/BCNMs/ENMs (blah blah blah) it's the entire community.

Aslong as there are people doing them, they'll be making money. You gotta remember that of the approximately 5,000 people that'll play every day, they will probably kill atleast something that drops gil, thus putting money back into circulation.

That's assuming someone who does HNMs/BCNMs/ENMs/etc. can compensate for those who do not. If everyone does dynamis once weekly, then that's roughly 50k (1mil per run, 40 people per run, 2 runs per week) removed from the system. That means everyone needs to put 50k back into the system via those methods and for everyone person that doesn't, someone else needs to compensate for them. Considering, I personally removed 150k+ per week every week for the past year and I at the very most put 20k back into the system each week, someone else needs to have earned an excess of 6.5 million via those same methods to compensate for me. That's no small amount especially when on average mobs drop 100 gil and items NPC for at most 1-2k.

 

[Uzor]

relic weapons dont take gil out of the economy, they take dynamis currency out of the market. the gil spent on currency is in the peoples hands who sold the currency to the upgrader.

As for the OP, he reminds me of the rank 10 NIN I had in qufim the other day, trying to sell the party his shield earrings because he was broke.

They need to up the XP needed, take away rings, take away XP bonuses, and let people learn to survive for a bit longer before showing up to XP parties with dual Rune axes and not knowing why the latent don't show up.

Well, you're right was thinking a bit wrong about the relic weapon part xD

 

[Artem]

Poker example doesn't work well here because poker has a limited amount of money involved in it. You are arguing on assumption that eventually gil will be so hard to come by that only few people will be able to make enough money to do dynamis and limbus. That will never happen, and thus my comment holds true that you can still make enough money to do those things. I don't find it necessary to quote anything unless I am directly referring to it. Answer or commenting on a question is not directly referring to it, so I did not quote unnecessary text.

If you ever study economy you will learn that a stable economy is not defined by lack of inflation or deflation. Economy with no inflation or deflation is a failing economy. There are however different types of inflations and deflations, demand-driven and supply-driven. There is also hyperinflation. I'm not going to go into details, but basically there's good deflation and inflation that every economy must undergo to survive.

I was there last Christmas, thanks. It was a good time, I made a lot of gil. What people don't realize that during last inflation it was actually easier to make money in terms of how much money was actually worth. For example what you could farm in an hour last christmas could buy more than what can be bought with what you can farm in an hour today. Even though things seem "cheaper" when you look at just the price numbers, but in reality they are much more expensive in terms of worth of money.

During X-mas most people just looked at pure numbers of "omg this costs 8 mil" when 8 mil was easier to make back then, than it is to make a mil now. That kind of sounded awkward but you get the idea. SE did not fix it because it did not need fixing, it actually help the economy grow. I'm sure SE has people who are macroeconomics majors who know what they are doing in general analysis. Of course a lot of people complain for a year to make things cheaper, so SE takes out money out of the economy. This results in excess deflation, making money harder to make and thus actually making things more expensive in terms of worth.

Pick up a good economics book and read through the chapter on different inflations and deflations as well as velocity of money. In game economy is pretty much the same thing as RL economy.

 

[Uzor]

That's assuming someone who does HNMs/BCNMs/ENMs/etc. can compensate for those who do not. If everyone does dynamis once weekly, then that's roughly 50k (1mil per run, 40 people per run, 2 runs per week) removed from the system. That means everyone needs to put 50k back into the system via those methods and for everyone person that doesn't, someone else needs to compensate for them. Considering, I personally removed 150k+ per week every week for the past year and I at the very most put 20k back into the system each week, someone else needs to have earned an excess of 6.5 million via those same methods to compensate for me. That's no small amount especially when on average mobs drop 100 gil and items NPC for at most 1-2k.

Well, not really. Dynamis always removes 1 mil from the system, no matter how many people attend. It can be anywhere from 1 mil per person to 15,625 per person. Even at 40 people attending, that's still only 25k per person, and not 50k

Edit: Well, saw the "2 runs per week", and in that case, then yes, you're right. Limbus is worse though, as that wastes 100k per week. So 150k per week is harder to make up for in pure gil drops.