I'm going to start taking down names

[Peregrine]

If the area isn't crowded, a bst and a party can cooperate. The tree's bark spiders is a good example. Usually spawn in pairs. Linking is a constant danger. Bst would take the left pop, I'd take the right, and we both did better for it. I can work with bsts in the area. I consider them to be just another party, and I give them considerations I'd give another party. That doesn't mean I think they're 100% entitled to having free pick of something if they get there first.

I'm not a fan of beastmasters soloing for xp. Yet they will not accept my invites to a solid party when their flag is up. I know it's crazy, but it's the efficiency hound in me that would like to yell at them just as much as I want to yell at a level 21 party in the dunes hogging half the beach just to keep decent xp up. Per capita, they are more than 3 times as taxing on a zone than everyone else in the zone. The emphasis is per capita. Per head. People don't think objectively about this. 6 people earn 1080 xp from one mob. A solitary bst earns 1080 xp from how many mobs?

It is that consideration that I feel many bsts refuse to acknowledge, but most do whether they know why they do or not. Like I said, I've never seen these bad beastmasters who pitch fits and carelessly leave mobs. The only one's I've met are the ones who will leave the thief goblin alone because you're trying to steal a testimony. That's why you will never see me crowd out a beastmaster in the game unless I absolutely have no choice.

When the zones are full, and there's nowhere to go, I don't want to have to make this decision, but I would give 6 member parties more consideration than I'd give a soloing bst. I'm hurting 6 people versus one person. The bst is getting camped on from a purely objective standpoint. Now I'll help him out whenever possible because I know he's screwed, but better him than 6 others.

Sometimes you have to make the best bad decision you can.

 

[Kipsy]

I was in Sneaky's party, and I can say for a fact that A. We were there first, by several hours actually. and B. The BST was a fucking IDIOT. He camped directly on top of us (While we had had the spot for 2-3 hours already), and had his pet fight leeches (nasty AOE here) RIGHT in the middle of our party. Directly in the middle. His leech led to our PLD dying from the next gob bomb. He wouldn't have if it wasn't for the leech AOE.

His name is Tuku, I've heard more than one complaint about him.

 

[Tarahn]

What's plain as day is that you missed the point. You saw what you wanted to see. Take your pills, and reread.

I'm sorry if your post rubbed me the wrong way. I take extreme offense at someone who is level 1 telling me how to level my job, or telling me what a "good" BST does and does not do. That's the one thing about BST when it comes to forming BST parties. A BST does not get to 35 without knowing his job WELL unless he has 35 levels of powerleveling.

Your first sentence from your previous post reminded me of your average run-of-the-mill Dunes party where everyone knows how to do everyone else's job, but no one knows how to do his own job.

Who said I stole a BST's spot? What made it his? If he was there before, I don't know when that was because I was there hours before he showed up. He parked ON us and kept leaving his pets. It was just an example. But I've also mentioned that I can see the flipside.

I wish I haven't met a bad BST. Tarahn, you are probably the most fortunate person I know, in this regard.

I have been in three parties to date that have tried to camp on top of a BST. Excuse me if I am biased because I was the only dissenter when it came to the vote on whether or not we could make the BST move. I left all three parties.

I, to date, have never been an asshole in situations where I have been camped on top of as a BST. I simply grit my teeth and move to a new location as far away from the party as possible. It is extremely frustrating when I get to level there for fifteen minutes before another party comes along.

However, when it comes down to it. I have run into several players who are level 70+ and don't know the first thing about trying to level their jobs. I have run into 0 BST's 35+ who don't know how to level their jobs, and I have seen countless incidents where a party has killed a BST because of a lack of consideration. I have been on the dying end of that exchange more than three dozen times. I have died 0 times while in a party because of a BST.

You can see where my biases lie, and those biases come from being on both sides of the coin. Most of the other opinions here (with Rappa being the exception) come from only being on one side. I'm sorry, but I can't respect that.

Yes, I'll side with whoever was there first. But when I'm in a party, I'll always yield the right of the way to the BST even if he comes after (I'll usually try to find a compromise).

When the zones are full, and there's nowhere to go, I don't want to have to make this decision, but I would give 6 member parties more consideration than I'd give a soloing bst. I'm hurting 6 people versus one person. The bst is getting camped on from a purely objective standpoint. Now I'll help him out whenever possible because I know he's screwed, but better him than 6 others.

Sometimes you have to make the best bad decision you can.

Again, this is the type of ignorance that prompted me to write this post. How can you justify taking a disadvantage and using it against the people who are disadvantaged?

I have never (and I mean never) been invited to a party as a BST unless it is either an all BST party or a linkshell party. My linkshell knows the amazing damage output capabilities a BST have, but not many other people do. If you were to invite me, I would accept if only to show off my abilities as a DD (find me a EM pet, and I'll double up on your BLM and come close to outdoing your RNG as well). The problem is, no one invites me, so I'm forced to solo.

 

[Sneakypants]

A, your logic is clowded by your admitted bias.

B, just because someone is a level one, doesn't mean they know nothing about the job. All I even had a problem with was a dickhead (who in this case is a BST, who left his pets on my party).

C, chill out, oh master of taking extreme offense...Or just don't post if you don't want responses.

 

[Tarahn]

A, your logic is clowded by your admitted bias.

A bias that comes from knowing both sides of the issue while your bias only comes from knowing one side. I'd rather be biased than ignorant, and I'd rather have clouded logic than no logic at all.

B, just because someone is a level one, doesn't mean they know nothing about the job.

This statement is a contradiction, and it just proves that you have no idea what you are talking about. I'll not be taking any BST advice from any level 1 BST's any time in the near future.

All I even had a problem with was a dickhead (who in this case is a BST, who left his pets on my party).

If what you say is true, then I'd have an awefully hard time with the gentleman as well. Unfortunately, though, I have not heard his side of the argument, so I can't make a judgement.

C, chill out, oh master of taking extreme offense...Or just don't post if you don't want responses.

If I didn't want responses, I wouldn't have checked back in, now, would have I? The truth is, I didn't mention the ignorant by name in my OP simply because I knew the ignorant would name themselves. Thanks for proving me right, Oh uberly powerful level 1 BST.

This is where I'd hit the "plonk" button if this was usenet, but since it isn't usenet, and since you seem to know more about the BST profession than the people who have actually put in the time, the harassement, and the basic all around hell to get to level 35 and beyond, I'll be anxiously awaiting your response.

 

[Sneakypants]

And how many times do I need to mention that I have looked at both sides? And how many times do I need to mention that the specific example I gave of the BST was a bad one?

You have missed the last train to stupid. Congratulations.

 

[Sneakypants]

YOU give BSTs a bad name, ya fucking prick.

 

[Tarahn]

And how many times do I need to mention that I have looked at both sides?

And my point is that you're not qualified to judge being as how you haven't leveled your BST past one. As much as you'd like to think that you have looked at both sides, you really haven't even made an attempt. Your level 1 proves that.

YOU give BSTs a bad name, ya fucking prick.

I started this thread with two purposes in mind. 1) to educate and 2) to blow off steam. I'm only a prick when people are stubborn about their ignorance.

 

[Sneakypants]

I've bothered to educate myself as to how BST works. Stop referring to me being level 1. That has no part of this discussion.

The fact that you have been as ass since you set foot here is the only thing that is without question.

 

[Anderithe]

I know more about being a Red Mage then 99% of the Red Mage/Ninja you'll meet. It's currently my BP job of choice. You don't have to play a job to know about it.

You think only a Thief knows how SATA works? You think only a Bst knows how dismiss works?

Flame never claimed to know 'everything' about your job, only enough to understand the arguement. Furthermore, he made no errors speaking about the Beast Masters abilities, so he obviously knew enough about the job to say what he did. he didn't speask out ouside the context of his knowledge on the subject.

Being that you're not a seventy-five Bst you're not really going to get much out of the "Well I've leveled Bst" arguement.

Not that the arguement is valid even if you were. :lol:

You posted in our Flameboards, and it's only proper you can expect to be flamed, furthermore if you had read around these a bit you'd have seen not only that our flamers aren't prefect, but that they are generally forgiven their errors. :wink:

So before you go off on a long tirade because he never saw your statement of 'I would never MPK.' realize not only is Flame entitled, but if you freak out on him for his input it's only going to burn you in the long run.

If that is too rough for you I suggest you get some lube and bend over, or leave. It's something a lot of people here have had to deal with at one time or another, and that include me, myself and I.

Why are BST such whiners. You make Dragoons seem content with their job. :twisted:

 

[Lyndis]

Anderithe, i doubt this was the main intention of your post.
"I know more about being a Red Mage then 99% of the Red Mage/Ninja you'll meet. It's currently my BP job of choice. You don't have to play a job to know about it."

But, it touched a nerve none the less. Cause i'm sick and tired of everyone thinking they know how to play a job the best way. So, you think a RDM/anything not a WHM or a BLM doesn't know how to do there job. and you could do it better. Granted, there are some rdms that suck at there job. but for you to say 99% of them just irks me. I use RDM/NIN in xp parties and I also use RDM/DRK. I am as good as any RDM/WHM out there. Because, I wanted to use a sub outta the norm I learned how to play my job better. As much as most of you like to think, that a i will shirk my duties as a rdm. I have never once placed my meleeing above what needs to be done. Most of you will refuse to admit that a player can be good or useful because of there sub job. I'm telling you, your wrong. When i can no longer successfully play rdm with subs i choose to use. Then i will say you know more then me, until then i will disagree with anyone who cookie cutters their sub job from a strategy guide and tells me i don't know my job or i'm a waste of a party slot.

 

[CubsWoo]

Anderithe, i doubt this was the main intention of your post.
"I know more about being a Red Mage then 99% of the Red Mage/Ninja you'll meet. It's currently my BP job of choice. You don't have to play a job to know about it."

But, it touched a nerve none the less. Cause i'm sick and tired of everyone thinking they know how to play a job the best way. So, you think a RDM/anything not a WHM or a BLM doesn't know how to do there job. and you could do it better. Granted, there are some rdms that suck at there job. but for you to say 99% of them just irks me. I use RDM/NIN in xp parties and I also use RDM/DRK. I am as good as any RDM/WHM out there. Because, I wanted to use a sub outta the norm I learned how to play my job better. As much as most of you like to think, that a i will shirk my duties as a rdm. I have never once placed my meleeing above what needs to be done. Most of you will refuse to admit that a player can be good or useful because of there sub job. I'm telling you, your wrong. When i can no longer successfully play rdm with subs i choose to use. Then i will say you know more then me, until then i will disagree with anyone who cookie cutters their sub job from a strategy guide and tells me i don't know my job or i'm a waste of a party slot.

Your subjobs are bad and you should feel bad.

I'm gonna guess you're past 41, so you can basically take whatever sub you want, smack it onto RDM and get invites because of that pretty little gem you get at 41 (I've seen a Galka 41RDM/8SMN get parties, so don't say it doesn't happen.) Let's break it down:

-At level 50, a WHM sub will give you 54 more MP than a NIN. A BLM sub will give you 67 more. Both of these jobs will likely give you just as much +MND/INT as the extra club you could Dual Wield. But since you say you melee, I'm gonna assume you don't use clubs.

WHM sub grants you:
Party Bar- spells
-na spells (and Erase later)
Divine Seal
Reraise

BLM sub grants you:
The elemental enfeebles
Drain/Aspir (though you DO get these with DRK, it's not something you build a case for)
Warp
Escape
Elemental Seal to stick those Sleep IIs on adds

NIN sub grants you:
Dual Wield
um
er
well
Utsusemi?
You're really good at Ballista?
er
hmm

DRK sub grants you:
Attack bonus
hmm
once again
getting stumped
OH I KNOW ABSORB-CHR AT 62
AND STUN AT 74
this is a good deal no matter how you slice it and I slice it thin

In conclusion, you are fundamentally worse than a /WHM or /BLM at your job and those that invite you are likely desperate enough to need a dispel/refresh whore. But they're likely laughing at you behind your back while they kiss your ass so you don't explode the party by leaving after you've been told off.

 

[Legomyeggo]

Anderithe, i doubt this was the main intention of your post.
"I know more about being a Red Mage then 99% of the Red Mage/Ninja you'll meet. It's currently my BP job of choice. You don't have to play a job to know about it."

But, it touched a nerve none the less. Cause i'm sick and tired of everyone thinking they know how to play a job the best way. So, you think a RDM/anything not a WHM or a BLM doesn't know how to do there job. and you could do it better. Granted, there are some rdms that suck at there job. but for you to say 99% of them just irks me. I use RDM/NIN in xp parties and I also use RDM/DRK. I am as good as any RDM/WHM out there. Because, I wanted to use a sub outta the norm I learned how to play my job better. As much as most of you like to think, that a i will shirk my duties as a rdm. I have never once placed my meleeing above what needs to be done. Most of you will refuse to admit that a player can be good or useful because of there sub job. I'm telling you, your wrong. When i can no longer successfully play rdm with subs i choose to use. Then i will say you know more then me, until then i will disagree with anyone who cookie cutters their sub job from a strategy guide and tells me i don't know my job or i'm a waste of a party slot.

You do know those moves the mobs use are TP moves correct? When you melee, you give these mobs more tp, more tp = more tp moves. So the next time that Spider does an Extra Sickle slash, or Gob bomb or whatever, you'll know who is to blame, okey dokey?

 

[Pesmegra]

Cubswoo, you missed the point of that completely. And your arrogance is only surpassed by your ignorance. i don't know if i really need to say much past that. but, lets give it a try shall we. this mighty amount of mp i lose due to my sub, humm i have currently started using drk cause it fits better into my play. mp diffrence not that great. the only thing and i mean only thing useful to me outta a whm is divine seal every 10 mins ok.
most of the -na spells can be countered with something, not all but most.
on to blm, so you can't build a case with drain/ aspir well then you can't use it for blm either. the only person i hurt by not having warp is me, also not valid. elemental seal is not that impressive. yes i have played blm before it's nice not something i think is worth it. escape is nice, so i'm supposed to sub blm for escape. sounds valid to me.
Nin although not as useful as drk, the ninjitsu spells can increase damage on MB. I won't disagree with you on Utsusemi it has no place in an xp with rdm. For drk the att bonus is larger then you think, but hey rdm are givin sword proficiency to sit in the back right. So cubswoo in my eyes all you have managed to do is talk out yor ass. i hope you might try think on your next one. by the way the point of my post was that a rdm/whm or whatever doesn't nesacary no how to play any better

 

[Lyndis]

my friend logged in when i was looking, the follow rant by pesmegra was done by me

 

[Lyndis]

o and neosquall since i didn't see your till after i posted, thank you for your wonderful obsevation, captain obvious. while we are at it why don't i stop hasting ppl because that makes them hit more often thus causing a possible. you simple chimed in because you "thought" you had something good to burn me with. guess not

 

[Legomyeggo]

Okay Lyndis. Let me put this in a way you will understand...

I'll deal the damage, you refresh and mb if needed. I mean seriously how much do you do per pt? Is it as much as the melee or Blm in the group? Will it decide the out come of the battle? Ask yourself that first.

Done? Well if you don't have it by now, than here is your answer:

No.

Don't believe me? Parse your damage. Come back. Kneel in my fuckin presence.

 

[CubsWoo]

massive block of nigh-unreadable text

Shall we then?

MP difference "not that great" - at least you admit to gimping yourself MP wise. I'm willing to give you... I dunno, 25 MP at 50 from a DRK sub. And I'm being generous. So you still have less MP. Not to mention I neglected BLM's Conserve MP and their respective Clear Mind (though I'm unsure if they stack or not. If they don't, please disregard that, and I apologize for bringing it up.)

humm i have currently started using drk cause it fits better into my play

What does your 'play' involve? Sacrificing INT/MND/MP gear so your toothpick can hit for 20 instead of 8? Even with en-spells you're slightly (and I do mean SLIGHTLY) better at a DD role over, say... a PLD. Except they'll STILL hit more than you because they have a A+ in Sword and you have a B. And don't say that your lack of +MND/INT gear makes a difference, because the moment you say you stick EVERY debuff and you HARDLY EVER get resisted I'm going to call a massive amount of bullshit on you. I've watched my girlfriend play RDM up past 50 and even with INT and MND bonuses in the low to mid +20s, she STILL gets resists on high IT mobs. So the moment you try to tell me that you can still perform your job at any level of functionality without that gear and while meleeing Nin although not as useful as drk, the ninjitsu spells can increase damage on MB.is an absolutle crock of shit, and I know you won't admit it.

the only thing and i mean only thing useful to me outta a whm is divine seal every 10 mins ok.

Curaga? Poisona/Paralyna/Blindna/Silena? Erase? Barfira for Gobs? I really don't know how you can discredit these spells.

most of the -na spells can be countered with something, not all but most.

Could this line possibly make less sense?

elemental seal is not that impressive. yes i have played blm before it's nice not something i think is worth it. escape is nice, so i'm supposed to sub blm for escape. sounds valid to me.

Oh, I forgot, you're so UBER 1337 with your RDM that you never get resisted on Sleep either. I forgot.

Do you even understand what elemental enfeebles do? Really? Please say that you do. I'll give you some links.

Shock

Frost

{Please check it.}

And Escape is going to save a party's ass more times than your NIN or DRK sub ever will. So yes, I'd say that's a perfectly valid point.

Nin although not as useful as drk, the ninjitsu spells can increase damage on MB.

Hold on, lemme get something to clean the soda from my monitor.

There.

Ok, let's see - we're going to again assume that this is a 50RDM/25NIN, and that your ninjutsu is capped for 25 (which is really, really hard to do before the Ni line) and that puts your skill at... 78. And you only have the Ichi spells. So instead of using a spell that's actually beneficial to your party to a noticable degree, you cast some random elemental Ichi that will

a) Do fundamentally less damage than a elemental enfeeble
b) Very likely get resisted since you're throwing 25 levels of skill at a level 58-60 mob
c) Even if Jesus grants you Ninjutsu Seal and you land it, will probably add 10 damage at most.

Whoo. Very compelling argument.

For drk the att bonus is larger then you think, but hey rdm are givin sword proficiency to sit in the back right.

At level 60, your attack bonus up gives you a whopping +22. That makes it around +11 at level 50. And since you brought up the argument (RDM does have a B in Sword, granted

1) You also have B proficency in Dagger. Why not sub /THF and close Distortion with Viper Bite?
2) Black Mages have B- proficency in Staff, Summoners a B. White Mages have a B PLUS in Club proficency. Since they were given that proficency, they should logically be up front with you, spamming weaponskills and dealing uber damage with their Hammers and Poles just like a good DD should, amirite?

i hope you might try think on your next one.

ME AM WANT TRY! EXCELLENT GET!

o and neosquall since i didn't see your till after i posted, thank you for your wonderful obsevation, captain obvious. while we are at it why don't i stop hasting ppl because that makes them hit more often thus causing a possible. you simple chimed in because you "thought" you had something good to burn me with. guess not

Except the Monk you're hasting is dealing 80-120 damage a round, and you're not.

To close, from the latest RDM FAQ on Alla:

While the triad of widely-accepted subjobs is comprised of BLM, WHM and SMN, there are other options for Red Mage support jobs. Having WHM and BLM availible will suit you in almost every pickup party situation, but some of the following are useful in statics, HNM fights, solo, etc.

Ninja (13a)

Advantages:
# Job traits: Dual Wield and Subtle Blow
# Ninjutsu: Utsusemi, Tonko, and others to a lesser entent


Disadvantages:
# No bonus MP, poor casting stats
# Half-level Ninjutsu limits selection of useful spells, and causes high interruption rate when being hit
# Offers no melee enhancement other than DW, and no bonus Weaponskills


This is one of the more powerful soloing subs. Fast Cast makes Utsusemi safer to use while being hit, and reduces the recast timer. The damage from Enspells is greater over time thanks to the delay reduction of Dual Wield. This is not a very effective combination in an XP party, you'll rarely be able to take advantage of your shadows and the melee enhancement is less significant than other support job choices. RDM/NIN is only a stellar tank in solo situations, because you don't have many hate-grabbing tools for use in parties. The biggest bonus comes at 74, when you get Utsusemi: Ni.

Uses: Mostly for solo. Quests, NMs, skilling up, farming, exploration, etc.


Dark Knight (13b)

Advantages:
# Job traits: Attack Bonus I & II, Arcana Killer (for smashing pots)
# JAs: Last Resort (30-second ATK boost, DEF penalty), Souleater (add % of your HP to damage), Weapon Bash (stun)
# Drain and Aspir earlier than /BLM (Aspir at RDM 40 instead of 50)
# Stun at 74+ (used with Chainspell against HNMs)
# Access to stronger Sword weaponskills, such as Red Lotus Blade and Vorpal Blade
# Absorb spells starting at 62
# Modest MP boost, decent natural INT


Disadvantages:
# Lacks the full utility list of BLM
# No defensive enhancements to speak of
# Souleater is less effective when subbed, HP:damage in a 2:1 ratio.
# Last Resort duration much shorter than Berserk
# Weapon Bash requires a two-handed weapon


Dark Knight is a good soloing sub for when you want BLM's Drain/Aspir, but also /WAR's higher melee damage and better Sword weaponskills. Attack Bonus I & II cumulatively add +22 Attack, so it has a fairly significant impact on your damage output. Generally not recommended for use in parties because of low utility and less MP than a mage sub.

Uses: Soloing - when Drain/Aspir, raw damage output, and superior Weaponskills are needed.

 

[CubsWoo]

Edit for formatting/copy-paste error:

What does your 'play' involve? Sacrificing INT/MND/MP gear so your toothpick can hit for 20 instead of 8? Even with en-spells you're slightly (and I do mean SLIGHTLY) better at a DD role over, say... a PLD. Except they'll STILL hit more than you because they have a A+ in Sword and you have a B. And don't say that your lack of +MND/INT gear makes a difference, because the moment you say you stick EVERY debuff and you HARDLY EVER get resisted I'm going to call a massive amount of bullshit on you. I've watched my girlfriend play RDM up past 50 and even with INT and MND bonuses in the low to mid +20s, she STILL gets resists on high IT mobs. So the moment you try to tell me that you can still perform your job at any level of functionality without that gear and while meleeing Nin although not as useful as drk, the ninjitsu spells can increase damage on MB.is an absolutle crock of shit, and I know you won't admit it.

should read:

What does your 'play' involve? Sacrificing INT/MND/MP gear so your toothpick can hit for 20 instead of 8? Even with en-spells you're slightly (and I do mean SLIGHTLY) better at a DD role over, say... a PLD. Except they'll STILL hit more than you because they have a A+ in Sword and you have a B. And don't say that your lack of +MND/INT gear makes a difference, because the moment you say you stick EVERY debuff and you HARDLY EVER get resisted I'm going to call a massive amount of bullshit on you. I've watched my girlfriend play RDM up past 50 and even with INT and MND bonuses in the low to mid +20s, she STILL gets resists on high IT mobs. So the moment you try to tell me that you can still perform your job at any level of functionality without that gear and while meleeing is an absolutle crock of shit, and I know you won't admit it.

 

[Mithracat]

Damn Cubs, you're winner.