It's the same principels, and my point is I have spen't far more than 25 million getting all crafts to lvl 60, and you don't see me chargeing people shit wads of cuking money just because I can! And wasn't really comparing them, was a non sequiter. If you take offence to that it's your choice.Kat said:
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Yoshindor said:
Get ONE craft to 100. Then talk your bullshit Yosh.
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The way I see it, crafters like Svina (not picking on you here, I just dont know any others at lvl 100) are in the business of making money, and I can see why: this game is about gear, and gear is also about gil. I dont think there is anything wrong with having someone pay you for lending them your abilitiy, but the issue comes with what to do if your items give out an HQ.
So lets say I want a snipers ring. I get all the materials and go to a crafter and ask them to synth it. There are, once again, 3 possible outcomes.
1. Failed synth with a possible loss of materials. The result could be the crafter replacing the broken materials and trying again, perhaps at half the origional price, or even free. This gives the crafter a loss, but to be fair, they broke the materials.
2. Success with NQ. Everything is a-ok here. The transaction is carried out as agreed upon.
3. Success with an HQ. Problems now. Who does the HQ belong to? Is it the crafter's because they are the ones who synthed it? Is it the person who asked for it to be synthed since they provided the materials for that particular synth? The crafter sees a huge profit, and that profit could go to someone who doesnt deserve it; they just got "lucky". But isnt that what HQ's are all about?
Back to the ::shudder:: car example. You bring in parts for a car you want... while the mechanic is making your car some random event occurs, something which the mechanic has no control over, and your car turns out to be an expensive sports car. You are there the whole time, and when it is done the mechanic says, "nope, its mine now. you can have the car you origionally wanted, but I'm keeping the one made with your parts because it was my skill that made this one." Would you be pissed?
Why not cut a deal, split the profit one that one ring and go about your separate ways. Then both people can be happy about that, since it took your skill and their materials to prodice the item. Thats what I would do... although a 3million gil profit isnt staring me right in the face to cloud my judgement. Sometimes a small compromise can work wonders, but you dont have to take my adivice.
-Ham :shock:
So lets say I want a snipers ring. I get all the materials and go to a crafter and ask them to synth it. There are, once again, 3 possible outcomes.
1. Failed synth with a possible loss of materials. The result could be the crafter replacing the broken materials and trying again, perhaps at half the origional price, or even free. This gives the crafter a loss, but to be fair, they broke the materials.
2. Success with NQ. Everything is a-ok here. The transaction is carried out as agreed upon.
3. Success with an HQ. Problems now. Who does the HQ belong to? Is it the crafter's because they are the ones who synthed it? Is it the person who asked for it to be synthed since they provided the materials for that particular synth? The crafter sees a huge profit, and that profit could go to someone who doesnt deserve it; they just got "lucky". But isnt that what HQ's are all about?
Back to the ::shudder:: car example. You bring in parts for a car you want... while the mechanic is making your car some random event occurs, something which the mechanic has no control over, and your car turns out to be an expensive sports car. You are there the whole time, and when it is done the mechanic says, "nope, its mine now. you can have the car you origionally wanted, but I'm keeping the one made with your parts because it was my skill that made this one." Would you be pissed?
Why not cut a deal, split the profit one that one ring and go about your separate ways. Then both people can be happy about that, since it took your skill and their materials to prodice the item. Thats what I would do... although a 3million gil profit isnt staring me right in the face to cloud my judgement. Sometimes a small compromise can work wonders, but you dont have to take my adivice.
-Ham :shock:
Referring to my own post, I would always agree to the 50% commission and not covering losses before I even touch the synth. It would be wrong for me or a crafter to just hit the person with the charge if its not mentioned before hand. If people don't like it, and can get "friend will do it for free" then go to the friend. A crafter sets his/her price, if you don't like it or want to be greedy then only you losing out because the crafter can just HQ all the items for themselves. However, it is wrong to use this to stereotype all crafters of all levels. For example, if someone gave me the ingredients to make shihei, the last thing I would do is charge 50% commission on HQ. It is only on the most rare items, like snipers +1, scorp harness +1, elemental staff +1 etc that this happens. Can dress it up however you like, but just because you think you getting a NM drop is worth more than someone else spending the time to get a craft up, simply doesn't make it so. Its all a gamble when you try and get more for your money. If you put your money into a slots machine and you don't get a jackpot, do you expect your money? Nope because you won't get it. If you get the jackpot you are going to be hit with a 40% winners tax anyways in real life. Its not like its some harsh unbelievable thing for an "expert" (this is still a game if people remember) in a field to charge for their services. Why else do it? Thats how the world is, if you don't like it, that is your own problem. Again "you", "your" etc is not aimed at anyone speific.
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Mishaela said:Kat needs a hug. -.-
But not from me, she scares me and/or would kill me..
Awww, sorry I'm scarin' you. It just really burns me how some people don't respect how hard some people "work" in the game. I'm just at cooking level 95 and I feel it, let alone a "real" craft.
It's just like ... DAMN, wake up and smell the coffee!!!! Just in my case alone, do you realize how long I have to farm to try to get 1 King Truffle to drop(workin' on Brain Stew at the present time)? I just think about how hard it is to get some of the ingredients to level a job to 100, let alone failing on synths and the time, yada yada.
Anywayyyyy ...
I think when it comes to crafting, whenever you talk to a crafter about them synthing something you need to negotiate the ground rules first.
That is, negotiate what happens on a fail and what happens on a HQ. If both people are happy then there will be no problem in the end. However the crafter holds all the power and the final say. I have no problem with this.. afterall they did spend the money and the time to level the craft that high.
That is, negotiate what happens on a fail and what happens on a HQ. If both people are happy then there will be no problem in the end. However the crafter holds all the power and the final say. I have no problem with this.. afterall they did spend the money and the time to level the craft that high.
Kat said:
I love you Kat.
So I've read most of this thread, possibly out of boredom.
My highest craft is 51 cloth. That's all. Sometimes I'll notice a dearth of fishing gear in the windurst AH, and I usually offer my special deals in /sh. I offer people to bring me materials and charge a synth fee, or I offer my own prices. I charge extra for HQ, and my deals are generally non-negotiable.
My point? I am in control of that section of the economy at that time. You can pay what I want, or you can go take an airship somewhere else, giving up some of your own time, possibly to find out that you can't get what you want anyway. You are at MY mercy, I don't HAVE to do ANYTHING for you. I try to offer good deals, and my HQ rates still allow the person receiving the synth to make a small amount of money off of me if they sold it at AH. I offer good deals usually because it's nice when you stumble across something like that. But I don't HAVE to.
In short, if you want something crafted, it's a deal between both parties. The crafter can say screw you, your deal sucks, and so can the person with the materials. Notice that crafters never say that people that camp NM should be FORCED to sell them materials at a lower rate. You're asking the crafter to provide a service, they have the right to refuse. Go ahead, scream at them, call them greedy, you're the one that wants free gil. You want to make money like that? You invest the gil to get the craft that high. Crafting's not for you? Well, bitching is, just stop.
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i'm workin on serval crafts, woodworkin's meh highest. Items are so expensive, and some either hard to sell or just way undercut. I never whine or bitch at how hard it is to craft, i seen people say "Damn, i lost that 2 mil syn. Oh well" Really triped me out how that is lunch money to most. I like to work on Leather next so i can make parchment, then continue on woodworkin. Then i need to do Bonecraft to keep on workin meh wood ~.~. Oy, oh well, keeps me entertainted, broke, but entertained.
ForteTeppo said:
i saw teppo in w ron begging for change from a elvaan with "?" over his head. :shock:
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Someone craft me an haubergeon for free 
it takes 1 second Cmonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
Also if u wanna make plus 1 from the ring u got then how about u level the craft ur self since it only takes 3 secs to make something.if the guy is your friend then he should make u a sniper or plus 1 w/e for little to no profit,if hes charging huge then hes not your friend/buddy and mm u know what to do.
it takes 1 second Cmonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.Also if u wanna make plus 1 from the ring u got then how about u level the craft ur self since it only takes 3 secs to make something.if the guy is your friend then he should make u a sniper or plus 1 w/e for little to no profit,if hes charging huge then hes not your friend/buddy and mm u know what to do.
Ok, a few things that I'm not sure if anyone mentioned, as I skimmed the last page or so.
First off, it's important that the crafter and the customer know what happens if the crafter HQs, NQs, or breaks. Nothing worse than getting into a dispute because the terms of the contract weren't stated ahead of time.
Now, here's several different payment methods for someone asking a crafter to make something:
-Lucky roll:
The customer gets all ingredients and gives them to the crafter, plus a comission fee. The crafter synths it and gives the result to the customer, regardless of the outcome. The customer pays the exact same ammount if it's a HQ, NQ, or break. The comission fee should be based on the chance of getting a HQ and how much profit a HQ is; in other words, if the crafter does nothing but "lucky roll" contracted synths, he or she should make profit comparable to what he or she would make from simply making that item several times and selling on the AH.
Philosophy: The customer is risking his money on the synth, instead of the crafter risking it, so he reaps the rewards of a HQ and feels the woe of a bad break. Essentially, the crafter is acting as a slot machine for the customer, and could offer a big payout or absolutely nothing.
-Lucky roll w/ insurance:
Similar to lucky roll, but the comission fee is higher and if the synth is a break, the crafter gets all needed materials again and attempts the synth again.
Philosophy: Similar to lucky roll, but the customer always gets something and doesn't lose everything to a break. Since this is more expensive for the crafter, the comission fee is raised to compensate.
-Guaranteed HQ:
The crafter keeps making the item until a HQ is made, then sell that to the customer at a price matching the AH. This is usually done ahead of time and then the HQ is advertized somewhere (such as on the AH board here), and is usually done with signed items as they can't be sold on the AH.
Philosophy: Usually, the crafter makes a signed HQ item and sells it to a player directly instead of going through the AH.
-Guaranteed NQ:
The crafter simply make a NQ version of the item and sells it to the customer for a price close to the AH price. Usually done ahead of time and done with signed items, as you can't sell them on the AH.
Philosophy: Same as Guaranteed HQ.
-Risked synth:
The customer gives all items and possibly a comission fee to the crafter. The crafter makes the item and simply gives it to the customer if it's a NQ, or charges a portion of the HQ's sale price if it's a HQ. The comission fee, if any, is lower than lucky roll, but the cost of getting the HQ is raised to compensate. No compensation is made for a break.
Philosophy: The crafter isn't making much of a profit, if any, from a NQ, so they charge more for HQs to compensate.
-Risked synth w/ insurance:
Similar to risked synth, but the crafter compensates the customer if there's a break. The comission fee is raised to reflect this.
Philosophy: Similar to risked synth, but the customer still gets the item if the first synth was a break.
Hopefully, everyone can find a payment method that suits how they want to pay the crafter, or get paid for being the crafter.
First off, it's important that the crafter and the customer know what happens if the crafter HQs, NQs, or breaks. Nothing worse than getting into a dispute because the terms of the contract weren't stated ahead of time.
Now, here's several different payment methods for someone asking a crafter to make something:
-Lucky roll:
The customer gets all ingredients and gives them to the crafter, plus a comission fee. The crafter synths it and gives the result to the customer, regardless of the outcome. The customer pays the exact same ammount if it's a HQ, NQ, or break. The comission fee should be based on the chance of getting a HQ and how much profit a HQ is; in other words, if the crafter does nothing but "lucky roll" contracted synths, he or she should make profit comparable to what he or she would make from simply making that item several times and selling on the AH.
Philosophy: The customer is risking his money on the synth, instead of the crafter risking it, so he reaps the rewards of a HQ and feels the woe of a bad break. Essentially, the crafter is acting as a slot machine for the customer, and could offer a big payout or absolutely nothing.
-Lucky roll w/ insurance:
Similar to lucky roll, but the comission fee is higher and if the synth is a break, the crafter gets all needed materials again and attempts the synth again.
Philosophy: Similar to lucky roll, but the customer always gets something and doesn't lose everything to a break. Since this is more expensive for the crafter, the comission fee is raised to compensate.
-Guaranteed HQ:
The crafter keeps making the item until a HQ is made, then sell that to the customer at a price matching the AH. This is usually done ahead of time and then the HQ is advertized somewhere (such as on the AH board here), and is usually done with signed items as they can't be sold on the AH.
Philosophy: Usually, the crafter makes a signed HQ item and sells it to a player directly instead of going through the AH.
-Guaranteed NQ:
The crafter simply make a NQ version of the item and sells it to the customer for a price close to the AH price. Usually done ahead of time and done with signed items, as you can't sell them on the AH.
Philosophy: Same as Guaranteed HQ.
-Risked synth:
The customer gives all items and possibly a comission fee to the crafter. The crafter makes the item and simply gives it to the customer if it's a NQ, or charges a portion of the HQ's sale price if it's a HQ. The comission fee, if any, is lower than lucky roll, but the cost of getting the HQ is raised to compensate. No compensation is made for a break.
Philosophy: The crafter isn't making much of a profit, if any, from a NQ, so they charge more for HQs to compensate.
-Risked synth w/ insurance:
Similar to risked synth, but the crafter compensates the customer if there's a break. The comission fee is raised to reflect this.
Philosophy: Similar to risked synth, but the customer still gets the item if the first synth was a break.
Hopefully, everyone can find a payment method that suits how they want to pay the crafter, or get paid for being the crafter.