inflation problems <no flame plz>

[gir]

yes "synthing at a loss" doesn't necessarily remove gil from the server by itself, however...

when i purchase that item at 1k and turn in for 300 GP that does remove gil from the system since i could also have NPC'd it for 300 gil... the item itself has an NPC gil value and i've destroyed that by trading it for an equivalent amount of GP (try this and you'll see NPC amount in gil is the same as GP value)

so in the case above, even considering the "synth at a loss" to not be a factor, i've still taken 3.2k gil out of the system

 

[Skaw]

I think you're failing to see your own logic.

What you're doing is preventing new gil from coming in to the server. Not destroying old gil. Stalemating an Inflation isn't going to fix it.

 

[gir]

all those NPC-able items are going to go to NPCs eventually unless someone throws them away or breaks them...

btw if you go back you'll note i agreed with everything else in your post
the original complaint i had was that you said

Building Guild Points... does not remove gil from the game

scenario #1
i turn in some items for 3.2k GP

scenario #2
i turn in the same junk for 3.2k gil
then i throw away that 3.2k

scenario #3
i throw the junk away as soon as i get it

does it really matter? in economics it's called opportunity cost
if i threw something away that i could've got $100 for, an economist would say i threw $100 away... so would most people

money is what's called "fungible"... partly that means old gil = new gil

 

[Dejavu]

i am the problem ^^

instead of selling my cheap items on the AH I sell them to NPCs

therefore putting more gil into the system

 

[Sabia]

Hey guys, lets not turn this into a flameboard topic okee? :wink:

 

[Noxxx]

The problem Isn't not enough dynamis. 1mil gil a shot sounds like alot, but when you look at the real stats, most of the money is coming out of the system in transportation and taxes. theres usually 2-4k players on our server at any one time. If 2,000 people buy a chocobo for $1,000 from jeuno, you've just taken 2,000,000 out of the system in one day. If 2,000 people ride the airship twice a day, theres another 800,000 gil gone.

But thats small potatoes compared to the money that goes out of the system due to AH tax. I wouldn't be suprized if 10 mil is taken out through the AH system every day, infact it might be more than that...alot more.

If you really, really want to suck money out of the system, heres how you do it: Unlimited Bet CASINO. Ideally, they could create a casino currancy you would have to purchase, and then trade in for fabulous prizes (rare/ex, or consumables) But it would probably be more effective if they made it a gil based trade. With a casino, S/E could set the pay out rate and I promise you, 100 million gil would disapear from our server a day.

 

[Shaunessy]

Skaw your screaming at the deaf. Most of the people here have no idea what they are talking about and the rest just don't care.

Why a casino to take money from the system wouldn't work:
1)You need winners to draw people to it.
2)If all people do is lose, why would they continue to play?
3)Why would gilsellers even risk the bet?
4)Why would I bet on consumables unless it was like getting an ether for 50 gil?


Ok, trading items to NPCs does not remove any gil at all from the system. It only erases your chance to obtain gil. Buying items from NPCs does remove gil. Whether its Guild points or Gil it doesn't matter.

in economics it's called opportunity cost
if i threw something away that i could've got $100 for, an economist would say i threw $100 away... so would most people

No, you threw an item away, not money. What if noone wanted to pay that $100? Then what? Ever hear the phrase "Don't count your chickens before they hatch"?

Blah this is boring...SE just made a shitty model to base an economy on and now they are seeing the effects of it.

 

[Bigboy]

Why a casino to take money from the system wouldn't work:
1)You need winners to draw people to it.
2)If all people do is lose, why would they continue to play?
3)Why would gilsellers even risk the bet?
4)Why would I bet on consumables unless it was like getting an ether for 50 gil?

You seemed to have missed this part...

Ideally, they could create a casino currancy you would have to purchase, and then trade in for fabulous prizes (rare/ex, or consumables)

If you have to buy it, then it removes the gil..... right?
Why would you play? So you can get the things only available with purchase at the casino for casino chips.

Just curious, but are you retarded? Just slam the keyboard with your palm and hit the submit button (it is the one on the right)

 

[Noxxx]

Why a casino to take money from the system wouldn't work:
1)You need winners to draw people to it.
2)If all people do is lose, why would they continue to play?
3)Why would gilsellers even risk the bet?
4)Why would I bet on consumables unless it was like getting an ether for 50 gil?

You don't really understand a casino. Ever been to...wait, ever heard of las vegas? People go to casinos for the chance to win big. most of them don't, but some of them do. I didn't say everybody would loose. Say they put in a slot machiene. you pay one gil to play, and the jackpot is 1 million gil. Now there are also smaller prizes, to keep you playing. Not everybody is going to win 1 mil gil, but enough people will win to show that is possible. and since the casino controls the slot, they can set the payout rate, so for example, for every 2 mil gil the casino takes in, they pay back out 1.2 mil in jackpots and other smaller prizes, It looks like people are winning alot, but on average they're just filtering their money through a system that is taking out 40% of it, or more, or less, whatever SE sets it at.

Now imagine instead of 1 gil, you bet 10,000 gil per spin, but with the same 60% return, you might win 100,000,000, but the population will be putting in alot more than that before they actually see anybody walk out with the big win.

As for consumable items, not all consumables are ethers. Charged items are consumables, foods, medecines, potions, ect.
you could make items that cast powerful spells 10 times or items that give you a 2 hour ability once. How much would a benediction earring with 3 charges be worht to a paladin? How much would 1 chance to use 100 fist, be to a drk or a war? Or special armor that you can only buy with casino currency. Theres all kinds of grossly overpowered things you could use to lure people into a casino, and you could make sure that only one out of every 1,000 people walks out with the best of it.

 

[Konartist]

Why a casino to take money from the system wouldn't work:
1)You need winners to draw people to it.
2)If all people do is lose, why would they continue to play?
3)Why would gilsellers even risk the bet?
4)Why would I bet on consumables unless it was like getting an ether for 50 gil?

You don't really understand a casino. Ever been to...wait, ever heard of las vegas? People go to casinos for the chance to win big. most of them don't, but some of them do. I didn't say everybody would loose. Say they put in a slot machiene. you pay one gil to play, and the jackpot is 1 million gil. Now there are also smaller prizes, to keep you playing. Not everybody is going to win 1 mil gil, but enough people will win to show that is possible. and since the casino controls the slot, they can set the payout rate, so for example, for every 2 mil gil the casino takes in, they pay back out 1.2 mil in jackpots and other smaller prizes, It looks like people are winning alot, but on average they're just filtering their money through a system that is taking out 40% of it, or more, or less, whatever SE sets it at.

Now imagine instead of 1 gil, you bet 10,000 gil per spin, but with the same 60% return, you might win 100,000,000, but the population will be putting in alot more than that before they actually see anybody walk out with the big win.

As for consumable items, not all consumables are ethers. Charged items are consumables, foods, medecines, potions, ect.
you could make items that cast powerful spells 10 times or items that give you a 2 hour ability once. How much would a benediction earring with 3 charges be worht to a paladin? How much would 1 chance to use 100 fist, be to a drk or a war? Or special armor that you can only buy with casino currency. Theres all kinds of grossly overpowered things you could use to lure people into a casino, and you could make sure that only one out of every 1,000 people walks out with the best of it.

Well Done. 8)

 

[Noxxx]

SE just made a shitty model to base an economy on and now they are seeing the effects of it.

Sorry, i missed this the first time around.

No.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

The model is called a free market system, and its almost perfect. All taxes and fees are in exchange for convience only, the "government" in no way interfers with the supply and demand, beyond have a few vendors that supply specific good for a fixed price in an unlimited quantity. Even then though, almost all of those good are completely worthless without crystals sold over the free market. The only exceptions are weapon and armor dealers, who sell at grossly inflated prices most of the time (which takes gil out of the system) and food vendors, who's products are quickly deystroyed.

The only real mistake in the setting up of the economy was including the npc vendors, and allowing them to both buy any item, and sell unlimted quatities of items. However, they did help the economy by creating a foundation that it could be built on quickly, at this stage they're mostly serving to pump more gil into the economy, while at the same time, distorting the prices of certain goods.

If miners had to actually make their own pickaxes, our economy would be a much different place, but it would have grown much slower, and many people would have gotten bored with it. This economy is doing exactly what it was designed to do: Grow Quickly.

 

[Shaunessy]

So your saying that this is a good economy? That if this was real life money it would be worth less than the Iraqi Dinar...but it's a good economy. Actually if you check the exchange rate it is worth less than the Dinar. I'm sorry but you can't run an entire economic system on an eBay account. Which is pretty much what this game is triing to do. Maybe if the ACs were actually connected then it might run a little smoother but this system is jacked. Now let me ask you this. Are the ores that you can buy from the goldsmithing and smithing guilds actually turned in by players? I highly doubt that. Are the items that you can buy from the alchemy guild synthed by players and sold to the guild? I know for a fact that they aren't cause I've sat in front of it waiting for it to open just to buy all the material that I needed for synths. How is devaluing money "growing quickly"? I must of missed that part of class.


So do you think that the "slot machines" will be set up loose or tight? What variable will they use 64, 128, 512???? Will they be on a random number generator, or will SE just decide when and where someone will win? I was just using ether as an example, but if I don't buy them at the NPC price why would I bet possibly more money to obtain the same item? Specially considering that synthing things in this game only costs time. The DRK with Hundred Fists thing is cool though, but that just falls into the let you use the /subs two hour as well argument. So I don't buy that idea. And what happens if people start selling casino currency? Like all currency in a "free market" gil to other imagined money would have to fluctuate. Would it not? Or would you make it R/EX? Thus taking up more invo room.

So Noxxx couple questions. How old are you? How much experience do you have with free market enterprise? What casinos have you been to/heard of? Just wondering cause it sounds to me like Brittanica is arguing for you.

 

[reddogneo]

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:43 am Post subject:


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I have somewhat of I idea. Stick with the npc idea of seller certain items/crystals/seals but limit the amout that ppl can buy. So one person can only buy x amount os seals in one game week. And for conrtol proposes only make the items availible to those ppl who are of the same nation that controls that region. That way lazy ass sandorian might get off there ass and try to take over some other areas and make other nations garrisons aliitle easier to do.

I personly think whoever said that they should have just added those nm drops to bcnms and left the nms alone was right but its to late for that.

I also got another bazaar idea I though of this while I was high so keep that in mind. Make a magic well throw x amount of gill in there and it spits out a item, and there a chance to get just about me non ex item. The more gill you through in the better chance on gettin a better item.

I also had another Idea i though of a long time ago, make special random wanted posters with some random new nm that pops in a random region. The nm pop regions, area, NM lvl, and there possible drops will all be completely random. And there will be 100% drop on a special item drop that you trade to x NPC the gets you a reward that also depends on the mobs lvl and area it pops. This would be a very interesting addition giving players something to do if there just bores or tryin to make money. O and the area it wuold random roam around the entire area making it difficult to find/get too and to be fare to other jobs it will not show on wide scan. The item drop rate depend on the area it pops and the NMs lvl. the only clue the npc will give you is the region its in thats it.

Now do this idea along with some other solutions and that can really help the economy

 

[Strid]

I don't think there is anyhting wrong with the economy it's just people don't know how to look at it. It's still the same it was back three years ago just more zeros to the end of items....ALL of them. Even the items you farm to sell. It all averages out. The only people this would be a problem to are people who buy currency rather than farm. They have to spend more cash while your behive chips, or other farmed items, have gone up with the price of items. It isn't harder nor does it take longer now to get the itmes you want, it's just that you are dealing with much bigger numbers on all items.

 

[Noxxx]

So your saying that this is a good economy?

This economy is designed to grow quickly, thats what it has done. A real life economy takes decades to grow. This is a game, money has to be easily obtainable, and a consequecne of that is that as time goes on, money is devalued. I agree that money needs to be taken out of the system faster, but that can be fixed. I don't think you understand how fragile a game economy can be. Right now this economy is growing at a steady rate with a high inflation rate. SE needs to be careful not to turn the inflation around too quickly and deflate the currency to the point of destroying the economy.

Are the ores that you can buy from the goldsmithing and smithing guilds actually turned in by players? I highly doubt that. Are the items that you can buy from the alchemy guild synthed by players and sold to the guild?

Guild Merchants have limited supply and prices that vary with demand. All vendors should be that way, and the max price should be raised on certain items considerably.

So do you think that the "slot machines" will be set up loose or tight? What variable will they use 64, 128, 512???? Will they be on a random number generator, or will SE just decide when and where someone will win? I was just using ether as an example, but if I don't buy them at the NPC price why would I bet possibly more money to obtain the same item? Specially considering that synthing things in this game only costs time. The DRK with Hundred Fists thing is cool though, but that just falls into the let you use the /subs two hour as well argument. So I don't buy that idea. And what happens if people start selling casino currency? Like all currency in a "free market" gil to other imagined money would have to fluctuate. Would it not? Or would you make it R/EX? Thus taking up more invo room.

How the casios are set up isn't important. The simple fact of the matter is that casinos are a proven way to seperate people from their money. If its an item based casino, the items would probably be ones you couldn't get anywhere else. My examples were just that, examples, the specific items could be anything, again, it doesn't matter. And if you'll note, I advocated a gil based casino as a better option, but to answer your question about how purchased casino currency would work: It would work like it does in today's casinos, you go in, buy chips, bet them how you see fit, and then cash out your winnings, if you have any. I'm not sure why you think a casino would be so complicated. Heres an example of how it COULD work:

I walk into the casino, walk up to the cashier, and purchase a stack of 99 ex "casino chips" for 9,900 gil (think of beastman seals). I go to my desired gambling method, bet the amount i want (maybe by trading to a slot machine, or through dialouge box with a npc), win or loose, and then when i'm done, I go over to the Item counter and buy my desired items. Then I leave the casino.

So Noxxx couple questions. How old are you? How much experience do you have with free market enterprise? What casinos have you been to/heard of? Just wondering cause it sounds to me like Brittanica is arguing for you.

I'm 24, I have a B.A. in economics, and a B.S. in Business Administration, Gambling is legal in the state i live in, I've been to my share of black jack tables, slot machines, ect.

 

[Shaunessy]

So you live in a state that gambling is legal and did you know that casinos are required by law to pay out so much of slot machine money. Around 75 percent is average for the law but casinos usually pay out more than that because of competition with other casinos. Slot machines are money over time things. Not take all you money away instantly. As I think about it though how many people actually play tetra master? Maybe opening an area in game where you can do that and you would have to pay a fee to enter that area and you can win items that way. This just came to the top of my head so bear with me. By paying to get into this area you can play with other people on your server or you can set it up like a black jack table where everyone plays the house at once. There you can win prizes, money, cool items whatever, and on top of removing gil from the economy, all of that programming they put into making tetra master won't go to waste. What do you think?

 

[Khali]

what would be nice... which may lower the economy. Be able to buy kindred and beastmen seals from your Signet guy using CP. That might lower the economy (or help me do more bcnms faster >.>)

 

[Noxxx]

So you live in a state that gambling is legal and did you know that casinos are required by law to pay out so much of slot machine money. Around 75 percent is average for the law but casinos usually pay out more than that because of competition with other casinos. Slot machines are money over time things. Not take all you money away instantly. As I think about it though how many people actually play tetra master? Maybe opening an area in game where you can do that and you would have to pay a fee to enter that area and you can win items that way. This just came to the top of my head so bear with me. By paying to get into this area you can play with other people on your server or you can set it up like a black jack table where everyone plays the house at once. There you can win prizes, money, cool items whatever, and on top of removing gil from the economy, all of that programming they put into making tetra master won't go to waste. What do you think?

Rl laws are designed to keep casinos from taking advantage of compulsive gamblers. SE wouldn't need to be nearly as protective of us, because we aren't really loosing gil. So they could set big paybacks with worse odds. As for the tetra master Idea, certainly one form a "casino" could take. Keep in mind that when I say casino, I'm refering to any wager based competition, It could take the form of a colloseum too, with betting on fights between players and mobs, or two npc mobs. Anything would work, as long as its high risk/high return, with the odds in the house's favor. The main goal is to suck gil out of the system to slow inflation while giving enough back to keep people playing. 100 gil to the lucky roller just isn't enough, the stakes need to be higher, and the methods need to be more engauging.

 

[Skaw]

what would be nice... which may lower the economy. Be able to buy kindred and beastmen seals from your Signet guy using CP. That might lower the economy (or help me do more bcnms faster >.>)

I had the idea for NPC Vendored seals, but it was more or less shot down.

Using CP, again, wouldn't fix the economy. Using gil would. Bought seals is a pretty good way to remove gil from the game. It's like the casino idea previously stated. You're buying "chips" pretty much. Then you gamble those chips. Lose, total loss. Win, well, varying degrees of success in items.

Now, remember. Selling these items to other players does not increase gil in the market. The only gil transfer in this structure is exiting when you buy the seals, and a minor gain-back if/when you win. Ofcourse, BCNM gil is pretty small. It'll most likely all get eaten up in Auction taxes, if it doesn't cover your gil spent on seals in the first place.

Could you still freebie seals from monsters? Yeah. Remember, you can craft to 100 for free if you take the time to do it. Most people aren't patient enough, so they'd probably flock to seal-selling merchants.

A good pricing would be 5,000 for each Beastmen's Seal, 20,000 for each Kindred's.

That means for every BCNM60 and Uncapped, you're removing 300,000 gil from the game(Considering rewards costs, that's a good bet.)

Square would also have to fine-tune existing BCs to make them worth the seals.

 

[gir]

Skaw your screaming at the deaf. Most of the people here have no idea what they are talking about and the rest just don't care.

Why a casino to take money from the system wouldn't work:
1)You need winners to draw people to it.
2)If all people do is lose, why would they continue to play?
3)Why would gilsellers even risk the bet?
4)Why would I bet on consumables unless it was like getting an ether for 50 gil?


Ok, trading items to NPCs does not remove any gil at all from the system. It only erases your chance to obtain gil. Buying items from NPCs does remove gil. Whether its Guild points or Gil it doesn't matter.

in economics it's called opportunity cost
if i threw something away that i could've got $100 for, an economist would say i threw $100 away... so would most people

No, you threw an item away, not money. What if noone wanted to pay that $100? Then what? Ever hear the phrase "Don't count your chickens before they hatch"?

Blah this is boring...SE just made a shitty model to base an economy on and now they are seeing the effects of it.

Shaunessy, I've taken the liberty of highlighting an important contradiction. Since my argument was that if I trade my item for GP and get 3.2k GP instead of trading it to NPC for gil and getting 3.2k gil, it "erases my chance to obtain gil" which in no way "counts my chickens before they're hatched" since the NPC will always pay me that 3.2k gil.

Please, you've flamed nearly everyone on this thread without consideration or adding anything to the topic. I especially love your #2 reason casinos wouldn't work... Just LOL
Troll elsewhere