Intelligent Design?

[pakomen]

I was a Christian for 20 years and that's what I was "taught". I can't remember the exact verse as I gave up the religion about 4 years ago, but if you need I can look them up and post references.

Basically, the teachings in the bible are that from the very first time you sin, you are too impure to go to heaven. Thus Christ died. To cleanse us of our sins. However, we must accept him as Lord to receive the gift of eternal life...

In my opinion, a perfect God wouldn't have created imperfect man. And a perfect god would have KNOWN that man was going to sin and that he would have to sacrifie Jesus, etc, etc. The fact that man sinned and Jesus was necessary proves to me that God was in fact NOT perfect, if there is such a thing as God.

 

[pakomen]

I'm not quite certain where that is taken from Pakomen, it's been a long time since I've actually sat down and read the Bible, but isn't that last quote taken from the New Testament and pertaining to after the 1,000 year reign?

Please forgive my ignorance if I'm wrong. Again, it's been a long time since I've actually sat down and read it.

And according to modern Christianity, the New Testiment is all that really matters. Which in some ways is good (no more burning witches to death), but in other ways is not so good (I think Paul manipulated the hell out of the religion).

 

[Chemical_Penguin]

I'm not quite certain where that is taken from Pakomen, it's been a long time since I've actually sat down and read the Bible, but isn't that last quote taken from the New Testament and pertaining to after the 1,000 year reign?

Please forgive my ignorance if I'm wrong. Again, it's been a long time since I've actually sat down and read it.

His post is very true, modern christianity demands that you believe this statement.

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

...Yep, you know those tribal people waaaay down in indonesia who don't know any better and worship nature spirits instead of the judeo-christian god? According to christianity, they are going to hell.

Which is why I, like Pakomen, no longer consider myself a follower of the christian doctrine even though I was born and raised in it for roughly 19 years before making thsi realization.

 

[Marajade]

Personaly, i dont believe that a god exsists, i'm a firm believer in evolution as the origin of the human race.

I have no problem with religion, except in the cases where its taken too far, os is used simply as an excuse to do somthing. Its ok to say "I'm taking this, because i want it." thats fine. But "I'm taking this, because god says i can have it." is an abuse of the faith itself.

I dont believe that religion has anything to do with god at all, on ist basic levels. People dont want to think that everything they do in life wont have any significance afterwards. they WANT to believe that somthing waits for them after all this.

Mostly, i think all this ID stuff is just adapting the creationalist views to modern society. Someone somwhere went "Oh snap, theres all this evidence that humans evolved over time, and that god didnt just click his heels and poof. Lets say that he controlled the path of evolution." Its the church (the organization, not the building) trying to keep in the current.

Religion should be kept out of the classrooms, mostly because not every student may belong to one religion. Evolution, while some dont believe in it, isnt a faith based system, its fact based. You can take somthing real, and talk about it.

Anyws, thats my little piece. Sorry if it seems a little disorganised, its 4AM

Also, the "god has a plan for everyone" thing is total crap. If he does have a plan, that means that he can controll what happens, so why wouldnt he just make you learn the lesson without being so mean? If indeed is is real and does have some sort of plan, he's just some kid with an ant farm, zapping random ones with the magnifying glass for kicks.

 

[Halifirien]

Mostly, i think all this ID stuff is just adapting the creationalist views to modern society. ... Its the church (the organization, not the building) trying to keep in the current.

And I don't have a problem with that. In fact, I think it's necessary if churches want to survive in the Information Age when anyone with a halfway decent library (or Internet access) can find all the evidence needed to accept evolution as the basis of modern biology. I think a church that doesn't find a way to reconcile their beliefs with scientific observations about how the universe works is eventually doomed.

But it's not a two-way street. Science doesn't have to accomodate supernatural explanations (except in Kansas). The Creationist/Intelligent Design folks want their explanation about how the world works to be on an equal footing in the scientific arena, but they don't want to play by science's rules. When nobody takes them seriously, they act like it's some big conspiracy by the secular community to keep them down.

It doesn't bother me if someone believes in gods, but it does bother me when their inability to accept the possibility of random chance being responsible for everything is forced into an area it doesn't belong... like a science classroom. You can view science as a method for discovering how your god's creation works (a view I can respect; I'm very Deist in my attitudes on this), but completely ignoring thousands of years of scientific observation because it makes you uncomfortable is just... plain... nutty. And that doesn't get my respect.

 

[Draiman]

I believe in god, but i don't believe we all came from Adam & Eve. That is just just a story to show good and evil in the world. But how we got here thats a whole nother mystery.

 

[Kat]

I was a Christian for 20 years and that's what I was "taught". I can't remember the exact verse as I gave up the religion about 4 years ago, but if you need I can look them up and post references.

Basically, the teachings in the bible are that from the very first time you sin, you are too impure to go to heaven. Thus Christ died. To cleanse us of our sins. However, we must accept him as Lord to receive the gift of eternal life...

In my opinion, a perfect God wouldn't have created imperfect man. And a perfect god would have KNOWN that man was going to sin and that he would have to sacrifie Jesus, etc, etc. The fact that man sinned and Jesus was necessary proves to me that God was in fact NOT perfect, if there is such a thing as God.

Wait, wait, wait, back up the train here guys. God did create the perfect man and woman. BUT, he gave them Free Will. Therefore they totally fucked up. Instead of God killing them, because he loved them, he banished them from the Garden of Eden.

They have Cain and Abel. And so it continues ... Fast forward to Jesus bein' born. He dies to cleanse us of our sins.

Yada, yada ...

Again, I'm not comfortable talking about this on a gaming board. Also I have to admit, I know the jist of the good book, but I haven't actually sat down and read it for a very long time. I think goin' to church is a complete and utter joke except for funerals, weddings, baptisms ... then I'll go. But, I do totally and wholeheartedly believe in God and the bible. And I have total and complete faith in him. That will never falter, no matter how much he tries to test me. And I'll tell ya, he really tests me sometimes. Anyway, I'm done here guys.

As much as I'll want to comment, I'm gonna stop myself from commenting further. Y'all believe how you choose to. And I'll believe the way I choose.

One more thing, he does have a plan for us. But I believe that plan is as a whole, not as individual people. I believe he sees all and sometimes will give us a choice of which road to take. Depending on which road we take, is depending on what way our future will go.




_________________________________________________________________________

Again, I KNOW for a fact I have a Guardian Angel looking down on me. I have proof of it from just this past Tuesday nite. If I would've been about 3 seconds sooner on a road heading to my daughters, I'd be dead right now. But, for some reason I drew a complete and total blank on where the damn powdered sugar free pudding was. What isle it was in. Now I shop EVERY Tuesday nite and know this store like the back of my hand, and I couldn't remember where that damn pudding was. Slowed me down a tad, and hence I'm alive today. Coincidence? I think not. Stuff like this has happened before. If it was the first time, mebbe. But too many times my ass has been saved.

There was an SUV coming at Steve and I as we turned off of Clark Road onto Jehrico Road on Tuesday nite. It was on it's side (driver's side on the road) top of the SUV heading straight for us. The guy had swerved to avoid a deer. It's rut season right now, as most of you deer hunters know. Anyway, needless to say if we had been about 3 seconds sooner we would've hit head on. Luckily we were running a tad behind and the SUV was goin' slow enough by the time we turned and we were able to see it (it looked like a wall coming at us), and stop in time. I of course called 911 while Steve jumped out and tried to help those inside. Pretty scary nite to say the least.

Anyway, I'm done guys. Have fun hashin' it out^^.

 

[Sorrowfulturnip]

Yes God promised us free will. He didn't want to force us into loving Him. He gets much more glory if we love Him by our own free will. Just like you get glory and happiness if your kids love you by their choice and not because you forced them into loving you. But yes we did screw up, all of us, and He sent His son Jesus to take the punishment and died for us since we couldn't handle it ourselves. Jesus took the punishment for something He didn't do, but for what WE did because He loved us so much and knew we couldn't be saved any other way.

I do believe all the science theories but I also believe that God was the mastermind behind it all. Everything that exists didn't just come from nothing and all of a sudden appeared there out of nowhere, including the gases that makes up the planets and the micro orginisms that life itself supposivly evolved from. I'll admit I too haven't read the bible that much but it does say in there someone read to me once, that there are some things that God doesn't reveal to us because our minds can't handle it or "phathom it" as the bible quotes as long as we are living within the flesh, which is why many things become confusing to us and causes many of us to question religion vs science. But because of God's free will, its up to us whether we believe or not. I choose to believe in God and would recommend others as well, but its your choice. I have nothing against non-believers by the way. I get along with everybody. This is just my belief.

 

[Mattaru]

Take a lower level astronomy course in galaxies and cosmology and you will learn that science is able to explain all but the very very beginning of the universe (like an amount smaller than we have a word for in time, yet in this time huge changes happened). So it is not as if we are unable to explain a good amount of the complexities of the universe. Of course these people probably still live in the 50's. The only things modern science has trouble with is the first two stages of the universe (extremely small amounts of time, less than 1^-40 s) , dark matter, and superstring theory.

As far as its implication on evolution, evolution has its flaws so I've been told, but I'm not informed enough to say that the origin of our species is a mystery. I think it is fairly easy to recognize that if evolution may be wrong it is non sequitur to think that makes intelligent design the natural conclusion.

 

[Tyrion]

I think it's ridiculous that this is even being debated in the public sphere. It'd be like debating flat earth, or something.

 

[micah2424]

Which is why i say this religon is nothing but people debating nothing more nothing less.

A belief in god or whatever people choose to call it comes from a reality check and the person choosing to have blind trust or as some would word it blind faith not some religon.

 

[The Druw]

Religion is somethign based of faith. Yes it can often be blind faith. Sometimes it seems reasonable, it is all in how you look at it.

I grew up in a christian family, I was taught christian ways. However, sometime around 10th grade I started to think for myself. I began to use reason and logic. I came to the conclusion that I couldn't be a christian, too many contradicting things within the religion, and "unspoken" rules. Kinda like you're not supposed to pay attention to the old testament so much as as the -new- testament.

I believe, that we didn't evolve from a puddle. I just can't bring myself to that conslusion. It's a -theory-. It is -not- proven.

I believe in a higher power. Something all powerful. I simply call it god, hell it works for me and makes sense. I'm just a mortal man, I can't comprehend exactly what goes on beyond my own existence and everyday life.

I guess I kinda believe in the christian god, I just don't agree with the religion itself.

Like if you make a joke, and yes, god or jesus are involved, it's the ULTIMATE SIN: BLASPHEMY.....C'mon. if an ominpotent being can't take a lame joke, I think even the christians are ina little bit of trouble. ~_^

But yeah, I believe ina higher power, but not the christianity so many cling to.

I don't dissapprove of the idea competely we evolved, which I still don't agree with.

Maybe God created a creature that did evolve. Then...the Atheist and Christians would be right....wow. lol Wouldn't that be god slapping them BOTH in the face?

 

[Tyrion]

I believe, that we didn't evolve from a puddle. I just can't bring myself to that conslusion. It's a -theory-. It is -not- proven.

So, am I to understand that because such an idea is unappealing, you can't believe in it?

I suggest you read "29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent" (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/.)

The way in which the Theory of Evolution differs from ID or any other nonscientific* explanation for the origin of life is that it contains so many ways it could be falsified (see the above link, each argument lists reasonable ways that it could be falsified.)

To refuse to accept the truth of something because it is an unpleasant/unhappy/unaesthetic prospect is silly.

As for your insistence that "It's a -theory-. It is -not- proven.", it seems that you're using the wrong definition of the word:

the·o·ry (n. pl. the·o·ries)
1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.
3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.
4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory.
5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.
6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.

You're thinking of definition #6, while the word "Theory" in the "Theory of Evolution" uses definition #1: "A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena."

In my view, when a cherished belief or faith clashes with the truth, truth should always prevail.

*http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=scientific method
According to the scientific method, to which anything claiming to be science must adhere, ID is not science.

 

[Halifirien]

As somone pointed out, "Theories don't grow up to become facts. Theories explain facts."

 

[Reishu]

I thought i gave a very thourough view of some reasons why I believe in higher powers, as well as some points that have not been disputed (such as how the god(s) used science to create mankind)

I suppose I should add upon that and point out that -some- of those higher powers care for the universal developement of mankind.

~~moral development is one thing that any lasting religion has always done, and you can't just put it aside and say it's not worthwhile.
~~mental development is something that those higher powers also care for. This varies between say Tibetan disciplines and Western 70's concepts.
~~physical development as well, we really do care for ourselves more than say... people 1000 years ago.

i hardly think it's coincidence that the modern stories of people who "walk and talk with god" follow the same ideas. One such story is the story of Saint Germain.

What isn't understood is the idea that religion had to come from somewhere. It's not the cannibalistic ritual it could be, it has much more capacity to penetrate the hearts and minds of people. I really doubt that the average person knows the human mind and heart so well as to make a fake religion work so well.

 

[Halifirien]

You could just as easily thank education, nutrition and antibiotics for increases in mental and physical development. No reason why you can't believe a higher power guided those, but also no reason why you'd have to believe they did.

 

[resipsa]

~~moral development is one thing that any lasting religion has always done, and you can't just put it aside and say it's not worthwhile.

9 out of 10 Existentialists and objectivists surveyed strongly disagree.

 

[Daveman]

~~moral development is one thing that any lasting religion has always done, and you can't just put it aside and say it's not worthwhile.

While this may be true, and I do believe religion has played a significant role in human history, it doesn't prove the religion to be right/wrong, only that it helps build morales into sociecty, and it can sometimes be a double edge'd sword (fundamentalists taking it too far)

~~mental development is something that those higher powers also care for. This varies between say Tibetan disciplines and Western 70's concepts.

~~physical development as well, we really do care for ourselves more than say... people 1000 years ago.

I don't understand what this has to do with higher powers. (as opposed to just occurring naturally or because of humans)

What isn't understood is the idea that religion had to come from somewhere. It's not the cannibalistic ritual it could be, it has much more capacity to penetrate the hearts and minds of people.

If you read the old testement, there're alot of animal sacrificing, and orders to kill people for crimes such as stealing, in my oppinion that's barbaric, but religion grows with the times, and adapts (such as vatican acknowledging that the earth isn't the cetner of the universe.. yet placing the orgingal thinkers of the the idea under arrest and I think excommunicated).
(this is an example of how 1 religion grows with the times, I'm sure most religions have things such as this)

I really doubt that the average person knows the human mind and heart so well as to make a fake religion work so well.

cult leaders can sometimes know the human mind and heart so well, as to convince a group of people all sort of crazy things. I mean look at what hitler did, didn't he make his idea work so well within his society? Look at North korea also. Creating a religion isn't an impossible feat if you have the power to do so.

 

[Halifirien]

Creating a religion isn't an impossible feat if you have the power to do so.

Heh. Look at L. Ron Hubbard.

 

[Tyrion]

I thought i gave a very thourough view of some reasons why I believe in higher powers, as well as some points that have not been disputed (such as how the god(s) used science to create mankind)

Yes, and none of those reasons had to do with what is verifiably true, only what you want to be true, which is not what science is about, and ID is trying to pass itself off as science.