Joyeuse.

[Lukas]

I'm looking to start levelling my DNC very soon and have been pouring over research into the type of gear I will need all the way up to 75. I noticed that some DNCs like to off-hand Joyeuse which I am ambivalent about and am not quite conviced that it is a better option than dual daggers (Azoth/Cobra/Matron's). I was wondering if anyone had any hard data supporting the use of Joyeuse over an off-hand dagger both in terms of TP and DoT.

Some of the things which I was mulling over in regards to this issue:

1. DNCs have a B+ (256) dagger rating and a D (210) sword rating. That's a 46 skill defecit, 41 with Suppanomimi.
2. I speculate that catering for Joyeuse will leave you either using Sushi full time, or sacrificing Haste/Store TP for Acc in order to overcome the skill defecit.
3. At first glance, the Joyeuse looks optimal for TPing, but is there any data to prove that it is more beneficial than a Dual-dagger build with haste/sushi?
4. DNCs get Accuracy Bonus traits, however this point is moot as they apply regardless of your off-hand weapon.
5. I realise that DNC is not a heavy DD, and that's not my aim. I am just wondering if dagger/joy will truly out-TP dual daggers whilst still maintaining respectable DoT.

Ultimately, I'm asking myself: will building my gear sets around my D-skill off-hand weapon prove more beneficial than just starting on a B+ base, and working from there?

 

[xRiokox]

I would like to know more about this as well, my DNC is only lvl 61, and I don't have a Joyeuse. I was thinking on getting an Azoth and another dagger (behemoth+1 seems like a good choice). I love how jambiyas look though.>.>;;

 

[K. Ishitar]

well not a dancer myself but since dancer rely on dot to make their damage count i think the deficit would be fixed with sushi and acc gear to compensate

joytoy supposedly parses a 45% DA rate as well so I don't think it's out of the quesiton.

 

[jamal]

Not sure if phraust's calculation's with Ridill on thief are still here, but he did the math for tp gain and acc needed, as thief has a similar if not exact sword skill.

Setting up something similar may be beneficial than just conjecture.

 

[Sneakypants]

I yield to 75 DNC that have Joytoyand have extensively tested this, however...

If it was me, I say go 8/8 dagger merits and dual wield your, now, A rated weapon exclusively. Any time you have to use sushi just to rely at all on the crutch of a multi-hit weapon, in my opinion, it's generally not worth it. Sushi could be eaten for consistancy with your higher rated daggers, while you'd also have the option of meat with a good accuracy build. DNC is a different job than THF for sure, but based on weapon skill ratings, and what must be sacrificed to take a lower rated weapon to battle, I'd stay with the higher rated weapons. Focus on, and put effort into your strong suit. Ignore the crutch. Anything below B rated weapons is already shaky. If dagger merits aren't an option, I'd still go with dagger x2 full time over squeezing in a D rated weapon. Adjust accordingly with gear, but stay with daggers.

 

[Inunabe]

Here's my experience.

I'm a 75 dnc, with fully merited sword, and Suppa. This gives me just barely a C rating in sword. Here's the deal, the trick with using a joyeuse effectively is going /sam. Dnc/sam gains TP unbelievably fast. I easily out gain a sam, or anyone in haste gear aside from "maybe" a thf dual wielding the fastest daggers they can get.

As for gear, you do not need to sacrifice haste/stp gear for acc. I personally use the cobra unit gear that can be gotten from campaign. This stuff is marvelous for dnc, as if it was made just for the job. Acc, stp, and -enmity. I currently have +45 acc on gear alone, + 13 stp, and as /sam that totals for an extra 2.8% tp per attack round. I do not atm have rajas ring, or brutal earring, but I do wear the Walahra turban for headgear, SH for body. I would use enkidu, or antares harness preferably, but they're more or less just an upgraded SH. After I get my Rajas Ring, and Brutal earring I will have 3.4% more tp per attack round.

I main hand my joyeuse as /sam. With all the stp, and the DA rate of joyeuse which as far as I can tell is 45-50%, and according to the other testing data I've read it is, I get between 7-15% tp per attack round, and this is with my delay being a little less then half of that of a dnc/nin in haste gear, with suppanomimi. I easily out tp gain a dnc/nin, to the point where it's embarrassing. I do on occassion go dnc/nin, but that is limited to the periods when I don't have anyone to heal in a campaign battle. Tp gain as dnc/nin, main handing a dagger, off handing Joyeuse, is 10-15% tops, but again that's at almost twice the delay of /sam and just the joyeuse. The delay on most of the higher lvl daggers can use is the same, or just a smidge less then Joyeuse.

Now the question you may be thinking is this. Ok, you mentioned campaign, but campaign mobs are gawdawfully easy to hit at 75, but what about NMs or meripos?

Meripos are easy as pie. One of the biggest advantages is having meditate to give yourself a nice tp kickstart. Against Greater Colibri, or mamool, I have NO need for sushi. Do I use it? Yes. I use Tuna sushi because, yes it does help with acc, but also for the nice hefty CHR boost it gives, which helps my heals. I frequently main heal for my LS merit pts, usually consisting of 5, yes count em, 5 DD jobs and just me healing, with everyone being either /nin or /sam. Step acc with the AF gloves is more then enough to keep steps on. I will say, yes...I do see an acc difference between daggers, but the DA on joyeuse makes up for it, as well as Zanshin from /sam. I also wear Bushido Cape which enchances zanshin, and zanshin CAN proc on both swings on a DA attack round.

I've toyed around with both /nin and /sam enough that I will forever HATE going /nin unless I know there will be an AOE problem froms mobs that shadows can block, or if I solo in campaign and want to actually use my WS. Otherwise, go /sam and use a joyeuse.

Edit* Currently I have 1 step acc merit, 1 haste samba merit, and 5 Reverse Flourish merit. Even with just 1 step acc merit I see a significant difference.

Edit again* >.> Also, if I currently had an Azoth, I would probably go /nin more often, just because that dagger is really f***ing cool.
Also, I have personally tested this out myself with a ton of borrowed haste gear from my LS, /sam and wearing the cobra stuff with all the store tp is MUCH better at gaining tp then tons of haste. Do remember that haste lowers the tp you gain, but Haste Samba does not effect this specifically. Dnc/nin decked in haste gear just can not compete with /sam and stp gear using a joyeuse. If they were using just a dagger, it MIGHT be different, but from my testing like that, it's not much slower then /nin and dual wield

 

[Inunabe]

Also, I forgot to address the issue you mentioned about DoT, and I don't feel like editing again. As for DoT, even though the skill is horribly low compared to dagger, the joyeuse dmg does just about the same as most daggers, more in many cases. I main hand a behemoth knife and the dmg from joyeuse is usually the same, or around 5-10 points more.

I will reiterate this, I gear my dnc to gain tp for healing. I do NOT gear for pure damage, or for WS. If I was going for dmg or WS dmg, I would go /nin, main hand dagger, off hand joyeuse. Keep a set of gear for acc/haste/gaining tp or w/e, and another set of WS. I suggest enkidu, with a mixture of w/e else you think would work for WSes. I don't have an actual DD job lvled, but I have done more then enough testing with haste vs stp and /nin vs /sam to know that /sam with stp and joyeuse is best in almost all cases

 

[Makelith]

Care to post those results?

 

[Inunabe]

If I still had all my parse data, I would gladly, but seeing as how my laptop recently blew up because of some stupid shit here at my school, I can't, and I haven't bothered to go back out and re-do it all. Either way, I still know /sam using joyeuse is much better. And even as /nin joyeuse is still worth it over just dual daggers, as the OP was asking.

 

[Sneakypants]

If I still had all my parse data, I would gladly, but seeing as how my laptop recently blew up because of some stupid shit here at my school, I can't, and I haven't bothered to go back out and re-do it all. Either way, I still know /sam using joyeuse is much better. And even as /nin joyeuse is still worth it over just dual daggers, as the OP was asking.

For curiosity, do you have or have you had full dagger merits at any time? If it takes full sword + suppa + sushi + SAM sub to REALLY work well (limiting you to healing), it's a pretty specific decision that bypasses other opportunities. I wonder how that setup would compare to 2x daggers, both weighing in with 8/8 merits. If the difference was marginal, even, still the result would be a DNC with more width and options. 8/8 sword, and 8/8 dagger could be applied for even more options.

 

[Inunabe]

For curiosity, do you have or have you had full dagger merits at any time? If it takes full sword + suppa + sushi + SAM sub to REALLY work well (limiting you to healing), it's a pretty specific decision that bypasses other opportunities. I wonder how that setup would compare to 2x daggers, both weighing in with 8/8 merits. If the difference was marginal, even, still the result would be a DNC with more width and options. 8/8 sword, and 8/8 dagger could be applied for even more options.

I believe I did mention several things you refered to.

1. I do heal. Alot. Frequently for my LS stuff I run main heal, or atleast back up. In this instance TP gain is priority, and joyeuse + /sam has tp gain advantage, hands down. Dagger merits will help tp gain next to none, aside from maybe better acc. More dmg =/= more tp.

2. I believe I also mentioned, that I don't NEED sushi, but I do however use it, but more so because of the hefty CHR bonus Tuna Sushi gives, thus making me heal bigger. Even in meripos, I don't need sushi.



Dancer is a healing job. Can it do something that resembles dmg? Yes. I believe I also mentioned, if not in this post, in one of my other posts in the other dnc topics, that if I was going to gear my dnc for dmg, then I would go, hands down, /nin, and in this instance, I would probably fully merit dagger, as well as having my full 8/8 sword merits.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Dagger is marvelous, and dnc has the potential to bust out some huge WS dmg using a dagger, and geared well. I know, as I have myself gone dnc/nin in xp pts and, using dagger/joyeuse combo, can hit 1k+ on Greater Colibri with Building Flourish + Dancing Edge, or Evisceration.

However, rarely is dnc called to be a DD, but instead a healer, or back up puller. In this instance tp gain is your best friend, and /sam with joyeuse is the best option.

To the OP I will say that Joyeuse is perfectly viable, as either /nin or /sam, and various other subs. However, as I've stated, my focus IS upon healing, and thusly I have geared specifically for fastest TP gain possible. If I was going for DD setup, I would gear exactly as how Sneaky has stated.

 

[Sneakypants]

I wasn't disagreeing at all. And I saw all the points you mentioned in your previous posts. It's fair to say that if you are gearing for healing or damage, either way, TP is truly the lifeblood of DNC. This I know well and don't question at all.

You did mention you don't need sushi, but I'd like to get into the details of that a bit. With sword merits and Suppa, that brings you to 231 sword skill (210 base + 5 + 16 = 231). Fortitude Torque could even bump you up another 7. At 231 skill though, in merit parties, based on how other C rated weapons qualify in merit parties, I would still loosely say you need sushi. Do you need it to get any TP? Of course not. Do C rated weapons suck in merit parties? Yes. I'm sure BRDs are your friend for meriting.

Using sushi as well as having a solid set of gear, and buffs, I can believe you can perform the way you mention on merit level MOBs. Do you mind describing your gear, so the OP knows what kinds of things to pursue should he decide he'd also like to try Joytoy DNC for himself? Since there are no parses, it would at least help the rest of us understand HOW exactly you accomplish this feat. There have been far too many times folks have simply said, "Trust me, I know it's better" and then had their theory debunked via parses.


Anyway, for lower level fighting, I have no doubt it's a perfectly valid option. I can't see this working past merit level MOBs though, not that DNC is hugely popular in end game. Even still, that would be completely out of the question with this setup.

256 base + 16 + 7 = 279 By comparison, here is where you sit with Dagger merits and gear. If any DNC out there have some real data of this type of comparison versus the sword setup, I'd be interested in hearing about it.

 

[Zethren]

I remember when some jackass wanted to lvl BST so he could off hand his ridill. When I told him about the D skill rating, he went back to his mog house to cry.
Sneaky offers solid advice, stick to the dagger/dagger combo.

Although I am now intrigued by Inu's post. Would be nice to see some data. '-'

 

[Lavi]

Should also note that DNC has Accuracy Bonus II which gives an additional 22 accuracy. That accuracy bumps you up from the 231 skill to about 255, accuracy wise anyways. Skip Fortitude torque though and stick to PCC if you have it, as Fort would only give you 7 attack, but you'd lose out on about 4 accuracy which I would imagine sword really needs. Not to say sword is really the best option, I am still quite skeptical; however, those are just some additional tidbits to think about.

 

[Sneakypants]

Should also note that DNC has Accuracy Bonus II which gives an additional 22 accuracy. That accuracy bumps you up from the 231 skill to about 255, accuracy wise anyways. Skip Fortitude torque though and stick to PCC if you have it, as Fort would only give you 7 attack, but you'd lose out on about 4 accuracy which I would imagine sword really needs. Not to say sword is really the best option, I am still quite skeptical; however, those are just some additional tidbits to think about.

Acc bonus helps, no doubt. But that acc comes in the way as accuracy within the amount of skill you possess. So, no, it doesn't bump you up to about 255 skill at all. In that same vein, Fortitude Torque would give you ~7 acc/attack, AND/otherwise 7 skill points. This will allow any gear you have that offers "accuracy" to function at that level of skill. So PCC Vs. Fortitude, while you lose 3 points of raw accuracy (which doesn't affect your skill rating in any way), you gain 7 skill points and 7 attack. Sword wielding DNC is supplementing their build with ample accuracy gear, food as mentioned above, perhaps and most probably buffs, and you mentioned they have the accuracy bonus 2 trait. All that helps them within their actual skill rating. My money is on bumping up skill rating 7 points making the bigger difference in this case, and just about any other.

 

[Lavi]

Acc bonus helps, no doubt. But that acc comes in the way as accuracy within the amount of skill you possess. So, no, it doesn't bump you up to about 255 skill at all. In that same vein, Fortitude Torque would give you ~7 acc/attack, AND/otherwise 7 skill points. This will allow any gear you have that offers "accuracy" to function at that level of skill. So PCC Vs. Fortitude, while you lose 3 points of raw accuracy (which doesn't affect your skill rating in any way), you gain 7 skill points and 7 attack. Sword wielding DNC is supplementing their build with ample accuracy gear, food as mentioned above, perhaps and most probably buffs, and you mentioned they have the accuracy bonus 2 trait. All that helps them within their actual skill rating. My money is on bumping up skill rating 7 points making the bigger difference in this case, and just about any other.

Confused. You're saying skill is more pivotal than accuracy? And that your overall accuracy is impacted by skill first and then accuracy? Example: Player A has 210 Sword skill and +20 accuracy in gear. Player B has 220 sword skill and +10 accuracy in gear. Player B has better accuracy (ignoring 1 skill = .9)? Just need some clarifying.

At any rate, DNC is invited solely for curing, they're not true DD nor would they ever be expected to beef up those numbers. The larger portion of accuracy from a PCC will help them gain TP faster than a Fortitude Torque would barring high defense mobs that require more attack which ultimately, DNC should avoid in the first place. Yes, sushi is a good fix, but Sushi only does so much and even well geared players with merits still don't cap on accuracy on a lot of merit mobs. That doesn't mean they need to, but for a job that is solely concerned about gaining TP rather than actual damage, accuracy should be their primary concern and damage second.

 

[Inunabe]

I would probably use that torque if I had one, but seeing as how I don't really do much endgame, I don't. As to the BRD comment, I'm the only brd in my LS, and that being stated I normally run DNC for our meripos.

Our merit pts usually, but not always, consist of 5 DD jobs, usually sam, drg, mnk, and me on DNC main healing. I honestly can't remember the last time I've had a brd in the pt while I was on DNC, so I can honestly say they haven't been of much help to me, although I have no doubt they would be.

As for gear, here's what I currently use.
Joyeuse,
War Hoop,
Walahra Turban, (AF head macroed in for Sambas)
Chivalrous Chain,
Suppanomimi,
(switching between) Melody Earring, and Minuet Earring,
Scorpion Harness, (with AF body macroed in for cures)
Cobra Unit mittens, (with AF gloves macroed in to steps for step acc)
Ecphoria Ring,
Venerer ring,
Bushido Cape, ( I use Psilos Mantle when I /nin)
Life Belt,
Cobra Unit Subligar,
Cobra Unit leggings, (AF boots macroed in for jigs)

All of this gives me
5% Haste
+45 Acc
+13 STP
-10 Enmity
+4 Chr
+3 Str
+2 Agi
+1 Subtle Blow
+45 HP
+30 MP
+5 Sword Skill

I will also agree with you Sneaky, that DNC, even like this, just isn't very viable on something like HNM mobs. I personally have NOT tried dnc, either /nin or /sam, out on HNM lvl mobs. But I have done other NM, BCNM, KSNM, and ISNM, with this setup and had it work using /sam and joyeuse alone w/o food. I'm also saying most of this in the context of either Merit pts, or Campaign pts. I've, more or less, retired from most endgame, so I don't have the chance to run dnc in those scenarios, so I have no doubt what you're saying in those instances is legit. But, I think most people that have dnc lvled, to the point it could be used in endgame, probably have a different 75ish job they use in endgame instead. I know I would always get sucked in to playing my brd if I was still doing endgame stuff.

Admitedly, my success, and the success of this setup does depend on a mixture of things, but what good setup of any job, party, LS isn't a combination of a mixture of things.

I would gladly get together with someone that does have a parser so we can get some actual data, both with and w/o food, /nin, /sam, joyeuse, and just daggers. I personally am interested in figuring some more out with this job. I would like to see other perfectly viable options as a SJ appear, aside from the atypical /nin that most people prefer to go nowadays. Just send me a /tell in game, post on here, or send a PM on here.

Edit* Also, I just remembered, the eva down effect given from Quickstep is fairly noticeable, and with the AF gloves, doesn't miss a ton on most merit mobs.

 

[Inunabe]

Confused. You're saying skill is more pivotal than accuracy? And that your overall accuracy is impacted by skill first and then accuracy? Example: Player A has 210 Sword skill and +20 accuracy in gear. Player B has 220 sword skill and +10 accuracy in gear. Player B has better accuracy (ignoring 1 skill = .9)? Just need some clarifying.

At any rate, DNC is invited solely for curing, they're not true DD nor would they ever be expected to beef up those numbers. The larger portion of accuracy from a PCC will help them gain TP faster than a Fortitude Torque would barring high defense mobs that require more attack which ultimately, DNC should avoid in the first place. Yes, sushi is a good fix, but Sushi only does so much and even well geared players with merits still don't cap on accuracy on a lot of merit mobs. That doesn't mean they need to, but for a job that is solely concerned about gaining TP rather than actual damage, accuracy should be their primary concern and damage second.

Agreed

 

[Sneakypants]

Confused. You're saying skill is more pivotal than accuracy? And that your overall accuracy is impacted by skill first and then accuracy? Example: Player A has 210 Sword skill and +20 accuracy in gear. Player B has 220 sword skill and +10 accuracy in gear. Player B has better accuracy (ignoring 1 skill = .9)? Just need some clarifying.

At any rate, DNC is invited solely for curing, they're not true DD nor would they ever be expected to beef up those numbers. The larger portion of accuracy from a PCC will help them gain TP faster than a Fortitude Torque would barring high defense mobs that require more attack which ultimately, DNC should avoid in the first place. Yes, sushi is a good fix, but Sushi only does so much and even well geared players with merits still don't cap on accuracy on a lot of merit mobs. That doesn't mean they need to, but for a job that is solely concerned about gaining TP rather than actual damage, accuracy should be their primary concern and damage second.

I agree with the bolded. There's no arguing their role.


To clarify what I was getting at, you said this:

Should also note that DNC has Accuracy Bonus II which gives an additional 22 accuracy. That accuracy bumps you up from the 231 skill to about 255, accuracy wise anyways.

Then, I said this:

Acc bonus helps, no doubt. But that acc comes in the way as accuracy within the amount of skill you possess. So, no, it doesn't bump you up to about 255 skill at all.

We both said other things as well, but the point I was making was this:
Example...Our 75 DNC is using the same food, has the same buffs, and all the same gear, save the neck piece. For ease, let's use a very attainable +40 accuracy from gear alone. Everything else is the same in the scenario, so the focus is on only a single difference.

So one DNC has exactly +40 "accuracy" from gear (PCC DNC). The other has +37 (Love Torque DNC). Without saying anything else, the "winner" would seem obvious. However, commonly understood relations of DEX and accuracy will lessen the gap to almost nil. The torque user will come out on top. +40 accuracy on top of ~250 skill (just rough numbers for the example) will not surpass the performance of ~+39.5 accuracy, ~7 attack, +5 DEX, and 7 more skill @ ~280 skill.

Switching weapons to dagger, your native skill jumps up considerably, yet you still have access to all the same acc+ gear you had at a much lower level of skill.

Is Joytoy a great option? Sure, if you can make it work. Is it limiting? Yes. I'm not saying to choose one over another, but just dissecting some of the things that come packaged with "using daggers" or "using swords" on DNC.

 

[Lukas]

See now this is a very interesting discussion. I'm very eager to level my DNC to 75 and start playing around with some builds. Now I was under the impresison that a DNC would fill a pseudo-DD role in a merit party. Alongside a WHM/RDM and a BRD, the party would be pushing an insane amount of attack haste with Haste Samba, with the DNC not quite matching a hard-line DD in damage, but justifying their slot nicely. I was not sure about main-healing a merit party on DNC, because I have done it on RDM and WHM many times and it seemed like a lot to do if you're limited to your Waltz timer (and you don't have utility spells ~ Raise, Haste, Regen, Dispel, Dia).

However, I would definitely try your strat Inunabe. /SAM would procure ample TP to play around with, but I'm still not convinced about Joyeuse. Your gear set does have a fair amount of accuracy, but very minimal attack and below 10% Haste. But whatever works for an individual is cool beans, I'll have to do some of my own testing and see what I like doing.

Edit: Oh, and Love Torque anyone? :3