Justice Dept. memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americans

And by "Americans", you mean "Americans who have run to another country to be high level members of terrorist organizations and organize acts of terror against America".
 
Ayup, this wasn't something that was hidden or even buried under a bunch of other things to try and be swept under the rug. If you're just finding out about it now, despite it being open for so long, eh, I can't validate your concern. You've obviously just watched some YouTube of a quack and got on board with whatever they said, for whatever reason, you're not serious about understanding what's about to happen here. There are bad things that are going to happen, and maybe one day our government will become powerful enough to decide blowing up a meth lab in the middle of Alabama is OK, but that's not what is going on here. What was "discovered", despite being public for a very long time now, is exactly what GeorgeBobBilly brought up.

And when has our government ever not had the right to kill U.S. citizens? Just because some guy in Harlem points a gun at a cop, that doesn't change his status to non-citizen, thus setting off the Terminator Eye in the police officer's head to kill him. C'mon now, don't be so easy to be impressed upon.

I'm worried about what happens when someone hacks these things flying over our skies; it's just a matter of time. I'm sure, though the government will deny it to no end, that from time to time some of them will be armed, and combining the two issues together, well, it's a fairly scary possibility. Or what if they're being manually flown and the person behind the stick goes nuts? So many possibilities, and so many other problems I think they need to address, regarding public security, before we go this far. It's kind of like drawing a picture, you don't start with the features, you start with a frame, and then go from there. However, our government likes to try and skip the small stuff and go for the grand prize... that doesn't work often enough to pay off, and when it does work, it's hardly efficient.
 
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And by "Americans", you mean "Americans who have run to another country to be high level members of terrorist organizations and organize acts of terror against America".

Except they don't even give evidence that they've joined other Americans. And it doesn't even matter if they were Americans or not at this point. The 5th Constitution says

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation

No PERSON. It does not say no citizen. So our constitution does protect all non-citizens as well. Our founding fathers weren't dumb or careless with their words or the grammar used. If they meant only US Citizens they would have said so. And even if it did only mean US citizens, they are still technically citizens of the country who have been targeted and some already killed.. They must have due process. It is law of our land. This idea to kill first, prove later needs to end in this country. I know 9/11 scared the crap outta people and they are afraid of all sorts of terrorists, but that doesn't mean we should ignore our laws. Hell, what about that 16 year old kid who was killed by a drone that was a US Citizen? He wasn't even confirmed to be a part of ANY terrorist organization, Abdulrahman al-Awlaki. His dad might have been, but even then, you don't punish the sins of the father on the kid.

The US government still hasn't provided any evidence to support their killing of that kid. And sure you can say "mistakes are made" but there's no reason to make these kinda mistakes. And there's no reason any US citizen should be put on a kill list unless they are actively shooting at the people coming to get them.
 
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Now, now, don't conveniently ignore the most famous part of that whole piece of writing:

"except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger"

It may be a snippet, but there are pages of "coverage" there.
 
We're not in a war.... even if they want to call it a war on terrorism, it's not a war by the traditional (i.e. what the founders used) definition.

And that part means that the armed forces don't have to have the same due process as civilians, not that civilians during a war are also free of due process. :|
 
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We don't have to go by "founder's definitions", remember that as we do not more than we do, and also... there is more in there that gives them coverage over an area greater than a war and service members. That's why I said it's a loaded snippet, it's designed to "cover ass". By the by, the government never said they were goin' to go zapping down Hobo Joe making bombs in his Oklahoma sewer box, no. Instead of listening to a retard spew garbage out of his mouth, in a manner that best serves his YouTube channel, which is all he's after, go read the actual memo (or at least a source that has). You need to see it all in context, I could take snippets out of the Bible and make any "good" character look like a whore, murderer, basically a no good, if I just take whatever passages play to my agenda.
 
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You're giving them the power to kill US civilians without a proper judicial process, I don't give a fuck what the situation is. It's unacceptable.

Hell, 14th amendment states

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

they can not do this. The government has been fucking over the constitution for over a decade now -_- all cause of 9/11 and their abusing the people's fears.
 
A decade? Please, they've been stomping on that tired, and too old for its worth document for hundreds of years now. It's just as outdated as our laws on technology.

That aside, I don't think you realize what you're saying, even though I pointed it out earlier. Let me make it easier for you using a recent example. In Alabama there was a guy who killed a bus driver and kidnapped a child and held him hostage. After a while authorities charged in the area he was holding the kid and killed the fella, safely extracting the kid. What part of that involved "due process" of the law? None of it, not one bit of it. I guess that was just evil huh, a real government conspiracy to rid the States of people? Probably would have been better off waiting it out, letting the guy make his move, potentially killing the kid and detonating bombs, in an attempt to create your optimal scenario of this man wasting my hard earned money in our farce of a rehabilitation facility called prison. What the hell is one kid when "due process" is at stake, amirite?

On the topic of your love for tired, out of date documents, let me point out your flaw in thinking it's the end all be all of law; it's not and there never was a time in which it was. There are many, many actions a citizen can take to remove them from the document's "protections". Case-in-point, the Alabama event, that guy was no longer under protection the moment he committed an act that was deemed a breach of public security. The law abiding and innocent always take precedent over those not abiding, always. You can't have your cake and eat it too, it's just not possible, not here, not anywhere.

Anyway, you're totally blowing everything out of proportion as it is, since you're more interested in listening to idiots than thinking for yourself. I'm as cynic as they come, but I've read the documents, I've kept up with what the idea is here. I don't like it, I don't like it one bit. That said, I know what the papers read and what the idea behind these statements are. We're not going to be attacking people with them based on allegations and "oh hai uz guyz Jon iz mak bumbs in hiz gargage lol, o he hat murica 2". Proper investigation will commence, as it always has (for better or worse). This isn't a little boy getting a new toy and wanting to try it out on anyone and everything, no, it's just another tool to add to an arsenal in attempt to take a human being, a law abiding person, upholding the laws of the country, out of danger. Well, more importantly, it's to prevent them from ever having to encounter danger in the first place as these things are incredible at gathering intel otherwise unattainable. If you think the government is going to spend billions of dollars to find out if you're beating it in the shower before bed at night, you're ridiculous. That said, you should be more worried about your own privacy than these being "tools of murder".

You know, Ele, I like you and I love how passionate you are about such as this, but it's just so frustrating to see you not taking that extra step to actually finding out things past a YouTube video or an unaccredited source of information. Take that passion to the next level, to hell with USA Today or CNN, go to their sources, dig, find the good stuff and then get upset about the real issues. Justifying your beliefs in quacks is such a damn waste of your passion.

Anyway, I was passed on a clip of something tonight that almost made me tear up and I think you'd like it too, though it doesn't necessarily run on this topic; I just wanted to share it with you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVwUphZ37Ww
 
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In any situation where it's life or death, threat of death or severe harm, it'll always be shoot first ask questions later.

There seems to be a conspiracy trend going around as of late. The powers that be are out to get us. This just feeds into that same paranoia. Like they're about to start rounding 'questionable' citizens up in the next decade and shipping us off to death camps.

I think we're smarter than that, not all of us.. naturally. We do have those 'hunny boo boob' types that likely believe Canadians don't own microwaves. But ultimately I think a large number of our citizens are well informed, or at least putting the effort forward to inform themselves.

I have to admit, after what info I was able to get surrounding the Gaza attacks and the carnage the drone caused, it was disturbing. Honestly though, I don't think it was much worse than ground forces and the casualties that occur on the norm... for the most part. It's another tool.

Due Process is reserved for cases where a citizen falls into the category of innocent until proven guilty. If they've committed or are committing crimes that take all question away but what their mental state was, officers are going to act according to their best discretion, which is something we depend on them to do. Lets face it, if all situations were to face due process, there'd be more harm done than good.
 
We do have those 'hunny boo boob' types that likely believe Canadians don't own microwaves.

Wait...Canadians have microwaves?


I have to agree tho, you kinda remove yourself from "due process" when you become an "enemy combatant".

Tho i have to say when you think about the drone technology, and some of the videos on youtube of how far robotics and drones have come. from those DARPA made mule drones to the automatic sentry guns, tech geeks make at home. and those quad-rotors with all sorts of AI and ability to preform different tasks. checkout Boston Dynamics youtube channel from the bigdog to cheetah robots

The implications of whats likely going to be developed (probably already BEING developed) how its going to be used in warfare in the future really make me shudder. : /



I can't be the only one that find's these videos incredibly creepy.

i get the feeling We're going to see some truly horrifying warfare technology in the next 20 years.
 
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I have to agree tho, you kinda remove yourself from "due process" when you become an "enemy combatant".

Yeah, what you said ;p I wasn't exactly eloquent in my wording, but that's what I meant essentially, thank you =)

I can't be the only one that find's these videos incredibly creepy.

i get the feeling We're going to see some truly horrifying warfare technology in the next 20 years.



You bet your ass they are! But am I surprised, fuck no. It's not like Hollywood was pulling ideas out thar arse! A lot of menacing mechs have high probability with our technical advances. Am I scared... should I be? I am a little. I just hope to god I'm not around to see the worst of it, and that it's so far down my genetic links I don't care.

I remember watching a special on how they incorporated a robot run off a xbox, controller and all. I mean, I suppose it's -good- that we eliminate the need for as many bodies as possible, for obvious reasons, but what would it mean for our future on a global scope. Each technological leap is bought out and sold, so within a few years other power houses are packing the same heat. Huh... aside from difficult transport.. it's a little intimidating.
 
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Actually, Strid, I usually do go and read the bills and such directly :P it's what I did when I heard about the NDAA and was like "that can't be true >.>" and it is according to the specific writing.

And I just hate to give anyone more power than they need. And power over life is a bit much. There are situations when yes there's no other option than to shoot to kill, but I feel like so many of them aren't necessarily the only option, but people consider in the easiest option and the easiest option is almost never the most just option :\
 
Eh, if you've actually read about this and still think this is how it is, that's unfortunate. Thanks for the clarification though; I'll just refrain from ever responding to any of this again, if that's the case.
 
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Funny to see how this is in the news again, Turns out our administration may have believed they could infact use drones against US citizens who are not an eminent threat or armed combatant, ON US SOIL then after our attorney general being torn apart by Ted Cruz and a 13 hour filibuster by rand paul they begrudgingly admit. FINE! we dont have the authority to strike US citizens on US soil.

I'm sure that's a genuine position based on principle. discussion over nothing to see here.


Overseas I don't have THAT big of a problem with the drone program, seeing as that would be suspect OUTSIDE the jurisdiction of united states law, but it's pretty chilling to see our administration preform such gymnastics in an attempt to evade being pinned down as stating it wouldn't be constitutional on US soil.

The key word is "Eminent threat" a drone striking an enemy bunker or attacking combatants actively engaged against our forces is one thing, but we hit Anwar Al Awlaki when he was sitting in a cafe, not when he was an "eminent threat" or "armed combatant"

I can see the argument that sometimes that's necessary overseas because sometimes high profile targets don't expose themselves very often and you have to hit them when you can. But on US soil no citizen should ever be targeted in such a way. the fact that our administration couldn't easily say "NO, ofcourse that wouldn't be constitutional" is illustrative.

and the amount of democrats who railed against Bush's use of drones and indefinite detention who are remaining silent on this is even more illustrative, alot of mindless party footsoldiers out there, supporting their dear leader.
Over the course of the past 4 years the Obama administration has out cheney'd cheney and much of the left is cheering him on.

As much as i disagree with you on many issues elem I really respect that you aren't one of the ones that suddenly turned into a Hawk just because a democrat is in office. People really need to throw party loyalty aside and stand together on certain key issues.

Edit:: Oh and FUCK John McCain and Lindsey Graham, fucking authoritarian sellout PRICKS, More Interested in playing "moderate" to get acceptance among washington elite then they are with defending the US constitution. Nice attempt to throw the Libertarian wing of the GOP under the bus, but I get a feeling you're gonna pay for it come Primary day, hope the tea party machine has a nice big target on your seats.
 
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And to those who "Trust" those in washington to only use such power when appropriate



That's Obama's former press secretary justifying the assassination of Anwar Al Awlaki 16 year old(American Citizen) son with "He should have had a more responsible father" The 16 year old may well have been guilty of terrorism, as his father was. but that response as a justification is just Disgusting.

BTW Awlaki was not killed in that strike, Awlaki was killed in a strike 2 weeks earlier, his son was not some collateral damage in an attack on Awlaki
 
I want a drone...
 
I want a drone...

http://www.nitroplanes.com/projet-drone-2500mm-kit.html

there ya go.

Edit:: the scary part is it wouldn't even be HARD for a civilian to weaponize and extend the range of these things the way technology is nowadays.

Getting an idea for a new action movie, a crazed man with a degree in electronics and aeronautical engineering, an unlimited budget from a trust fund... and a grudge.
 
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Our constitution is apparently null and void these days >.> so depressing.
 
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