Kisada. (large ..)

[Elemmire]

Is it so hard to understand that life is more than just a set of rules and regulations. When you reduce it to such, terms like honour, loyalty, respect, morality and trust go out the window. Where I come from these concepts are at least as important as laws...

And for reference, laws are not some divine rule that was handed down from Mt Sinai... they're a set of rules usually set by polititians to prevent anarchy, and represent the general morality of the population...
(and strangely enough many of the ones that were handed down from Sinai aren't actually illegal )

rules were made by the PEOPLE. (atleast in the USA). No law is supposed to be passed without the representation of the people allowing it so. This is why a law can also be countered by the people. You can go to your government's local office and make a case to repeal a law if the people agree in the area it is one they don't want. They weren't just made by 1 polititian, even if he just brought it up or even came up with the law the people still are supposed to have a say in it.

 

[Elemmire]

And NINJA is NOT THE SAME JOB AS BEAST.

who said it was? Now it just seems like you are grasping at things that are absurd. NIN is not the same job as BST but are both part of the same character and this character was allowed to be used by Necrosis by the owner of the character. Even if he did say he wanted NIN to be leveled to 37.

 

[Sabia]

The Ninja is NOT the same job as Beast. it can easily be leveled and used without ever changing to Beast, eventhough the Job is on the same character. You get can level ninja, maybe even hit 37, and not even touch the beast on the same character while accomplishing your goal of a 37 Ninja, as Beast 74 is not required for Ninja 37

I fixed your quote so you can see just how fucking out of the park you are and the fact that you've been arguing for nothing.

 

[Sabia]

who said it was? Now it just seems like you are grasping at things that are absurd. NIN is not the same job as BST but are both part of the same character and this character was allowed to be used by Necrosis by the owner of the character. Even if he did say he wanted NIN to be leveled to 37.

Guuh I give up, arguing with you is like watching two monkeys fucking a football. They keep laying into it but it's never going to do them anygood.

 

[Elemmire]

I fixed your quote so you can see just how fucking out of the park you are and the fact that you've been arguing for nothing.

that's not even grammatically correct.. I can hardly read that.

And you are still failing to see that consent was given to Necrosis to be allowed to use the character when he was given the password. Granted, he was asked to level 1 job to 37 he still wasn't denied the use of the other facilities of the character. You all say "he was never told to use BST" or so that's like saying "well he was never told he could go on the AH" or "he was never told to walk in jeuno" or something else that could be done with the character. Surely he could level NIN without entering jeuno or even entering the AH but people wouldn't have a problem with that now would they? Where does the line end where one person can and can not do in this situation? If he hadn't ever lost exp on his BST, or, let's say, he even gained EXP on the BST, wouldn't that still be wrong by your logic?

 

[Courtney]

rules were made by the PEOPLE. (atleast in the USA). No law is supposed to be passed without the representation of the people allowing it so. This is why a law can also be countered by the people. You can go to your government's local office and make a case to repeal a law if the people agree in the area it is one they don't want. They weren't just made by 1 polititian, even if he just brought it up or even came up with the law the people still are supposed to have a say in it.

Lol, they're made by polititians who are elected by the people. Are you telling me that every law in the US has the support of more than 50% of the population? Or that every (or any) polititian will vote on what his constituents want rather than on what his party wants?

And where did I say they were made by one person? The point that you missed was that laws that you're following are a representation of the general MORALITY of the population. A morality that you don't believe should be imposed on others...

 

[Sabia]

that's not even grammatically correct.. I can hardly read that.

And you are still failing to see that consent was given to Necrosis to be allowed to use the character when he was given the password. Granted, he was asked to level 1 job to 37 he still wasn't denied the use of the other facilities of the character. You all say "he was never told to use BST" or so that's like saying "well he was never told he could go on the AH" or "he was never told to walk in jeuno" or something else that could be done with the character. Surely he could level NIN without entering jeuno or even entering the AH but people wouldn't have a problem with that now would they? Where does the line end where one person can and can not do in this situation? If he hadn't ever lost exp on his BST, or, let's say, he even gained EXP on the BST, wouldn't that still be wrong by your logic?

Your twisted sense of logic says that it's okay for him to level beast when he was told to level ninja because the BEAST was on the same CHARACTER as the NINJA.

NOW using YOUR logic I can safely say that the Plumber who was hired to fix the toilet in YOUR HOUSE has every right to play with YOUR playstation because eventhough it's not required to get the job done, it's in the same house (being yours). Sure it wasn't written in the actual contract but I've never seen a plumber contract that says "Thy shant use the playstation" so it's safe to say that, YEP it's okay for you to sit on the couch and play with it eventhough it's not what I hired you to do. Yeah...Monkeys fucking footballs.

 

[Winklewil]

I'd recommend everyone just quit engaging with Elemmire on the silly little "letter of the contract" diversion. When one is in too deep, as in this situation, it's difficult to dig out .... this one will be fought into eternity, no matter how pointless it is, just to save face. It would be better to instead force El to answer the question that's not-so-covertly being avoided:

Was what Necrosis did wrong?

Elemmire? Please, just answer that. It's the only thing that anyone else gives a crap about. This is around the fifth time I've posed the question to you, and I have little doubt that it'll be the fifth time that you ignore it. Don't try to squirm away from an answer by citing some vague reference of "individual" definitions of right and wrong. The truth is, while there is some wild variance, there's always common ground where the MAJORITY of people can agree. It may be a narrow strip of ground, but it's there.

I'm sure somewhere in those 4,000 posts of yours, numerous examples of you exacting judgement on others can be found. If you don't answer the question, it's not out of humility and refusal to subject someone to your "personal" belief. Perhaps you started that line of reasoning up to buy yourself insurance against answering, but nobody's buying it.

If, once you answer, you have to honestly admit that this kind of behavior was a nasty abuse of trust, you've got to stop making excuses for Necrosis.

 

[Bajaratt]

that's not even grammatically correct.. I can hardly read that.

And you are still failing to see that consent was given to Necrosis to be allowed to use the character when he was given the password. Granted, he was asked to level 1 job to 37 he still wasn't denied the use of the other facilities of the character. You all say "he was never told to use BST" or so that's like saying "well he was never told he could go on the AH" or "he was never told to walk in jeuno" or something else that could be done with the character. Surely he could level NIN without entering jeuno or even entering the AH but people wouldn't have a problem with that now would they? Where does the line end where one person can and can not do in this situation? If he hadn't ever lost exp on his BST, or, let's say, he even gained EXP on the BST, wouldn't that still be wrong by your logic?

Ele, I seriously can't figure out how you can take this stance. Yes, he was never explicitly told he was to not touch bst until after Sote found out he lost exp on it, that doesn't excuse him still doing it. You turned my quote around to try to suit your position, but you got it wrong. Just because he wasn't told specificially(i.e. a law) didn't give him any right to do anything but what he was supposed to do, level ninja. Just because it wasn't explicitly mentioned doesn't mean it was right, because it wasn't.

The second he did anything but his specified job, he violated the contract. The fact that it's on the same character is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is that he didn't do what he was supposed to do. By your logic(I'm using that term loosely), and only your logic(very loosely), Necrosis could have tossed all the gear, or given it to himself and that would have been perfectly fine, because it was all on the same character. That wouldn't have been fine, because all he was supposed to do, all he was allowed to do was to level ninja. Sote noticed he was skilling up some crafts and left it alone, that's an extension of the initial contract. You're also ignoring the part where Sote asked him to not touch bst again and he still did it, so even by your fucked up logic he's STILL in the wrong. You're using a double standard for your logic and you're wrong, get over it already.

 

[Courtney]

I'm sure somewhere in those 4,000 posts of yours, numerous examples of you exacting judgement on others can be found. If you don't answer the question, it's not out of humility and refusal to subject someone to your "personal" belief. Perhaps you started that line of reasoning up to buy yourself insurance against answering, but nobody's buying it.

If, once you answer, you have to honestly admit that this kind of behavior was a nasty abuse of trust, you've got to stop making excuses for Necrosis.

http://www.qcdn.org/showthread.php?t=22514

http://www.qcdn.org/showthread.php?t=20597

http://www.qcdn.org/showthread.php?t=9740

We could try these for starters ;P

 

[Elemmire]

I said like.. 5 pages back what he did was wrong, morally :\

this whole damn thread really reminds me of high school. Someone isn't popular than the people have to bash them. I wonder what woulda happened if someone like.. oh.. Rones or Thadeus did this. Bet we woulda seen the "oh this isn't like the person, must have just been a mistake" response.

And, Sabia, if you used my logic at all you'd see that just because they are in the same house doesn't mean they are the same thing or even related to each other. The pipe =/= playstation. The house and pipeline are connected where as you can have a playstation run without your house. There are external batteries you can get and other power sources. Nor do you require your house to have a playstation where as houses in most democratic states require to have sewage lines in populated areas. And you have yet to answer any of my questions, as in, if he had acquired exp for BST wouldn't that still be wrong?

 

[Sabia]

I said like.. 5 pages back what he did was wrong, morally :\

this whole damn thread really reminds me of high school. Someone isn't popular than the people have to bash them. I wonder what woulda happened if someone like.. oh.. Rones or Thadeus did this. Bet we woulda seen the "oh this isn't like the person, must have just been a mistake" response.

And, Sabia, if you used my logic at all you'd see that just because they are in the same house doesn't mean they are the same thing or even related to each other. The pipe =/= playstation. The house and pipeline are connected where as you can have a playstation run without your house. There are external batteries you can get and other power sources. Nor do you require your house to have a playstation where as houses in most democratic states require to have sewage lines in populated areas. And you have yet to answer any of my questions, as in, if he had acquired exp for BST wouldn't that still be wrong?

Rones has more brains than to pull an argument like this out of his ass, Jesus that last paragraph there is really grasping at straws....

 

[Elemmire]

The second he did anything but his specified job, he violated the contract.

you can level a job without doing a lot of things in FFXI. Does this mean his even zoning into a city with that character was violation of the contract then? Because, while gear might help, he isn't required to use it to level the job.

 

[Elemmire]

Rones has more brains than to pull an argument like this out of his ass, Jesus that last paragraph there is really grasping at straws....

I knew this would come.. I knew that someone would take my hypothetical situation and just say "well they would never do a thing like that cause it isn't like them." Way to miss my point completely...

 

[Bajaratt]

you can level a job without doing a lot of things in FFXI. Does this mean his even zoning into a city with that character was violation of the contract then? Because, while gear might help, he isn't required to use it to level the job.

You can't be fucking serious. There is a HUGE difference between something that is obviously a part of leveling the job and doing something that has mothing to do with the job. If he died and deleveled on ninja while leveling it, that would be fine, because that happens, but he was using something that in no way, shape or form had anything to do with leveling ninja. That's where he breached the contract, that's where he went wrong.

 

[Elemmire]

You can't be fucking serious. There is a HUGE difference between something that is obviously a part of leveling the job and doing something that has mothing to do with the job. If he died and deleveled on ninja while leveling it, that would be fine, because that happens, but he was using something that in no way, shape or form had anything to do with leveling ninja. That's where he breached the contract, that's where he went wrong.

point is you can still level a job and never enter a city. So if you are gonna limit one thing you might as well limit everything except his leveling the job. You said "The second he did anything but his specified job, he violated the contract," (and this job was to level NIN). By your own words, him doing anything except killing monsters for exp on NIN to level the job is a breach of contract.

 

[Bajaratt]

I knew this would come.. I knew that someone would take my hypothetical situation and just say "well they would never do a thing like that cause it isn't like them." Way to miss my point completely...

Sabia didn't say "well rones would never do that," even though I doubt he would. She said that rones wouldn't be using such obviously bullshit logic to defend his actions.

 

[Elemmire]

Sabia didn't say "well rones would never do that," even though I doubt he would. She said that rones wouldn't be using such obviously bullshit logic to defend his actions.

ah, I miss read Sabia, my fault. But, I still assure you, people wouldn't be bashing him like they are Necrosis. That's where I have atleast one problem with this thread.

 

[Bajaratt]

point is you can still level a job and never enter a city. So if you are gonna limit one thing you might as well limit everything except his leveling the job. You said "The second he did anything but his specified job, he violated the contract," (and this job was to level NIN). By your own words, him doing anything except killing monsters for exp on NIN to level the job is a breach of contract.

Seriously, you can't be this thick. Necrosis was hired for a job, to level ninja. If he was caught doing jack shit or say watching tv instead of doing the job, he'd be fired; plain and simple. Letting him zone into a city to update his gear is a fucking obvious allowance, playing on a job that has nothing to do with leveling ninja is obviously something that wasn't intended in the "contract." Anything that can be reasonably tied to actually performing the job(zoning into cities, getting gear, buying food/chocobos) is allowed, anything that has nothing to do with doing what he was paid to do is not allowed, how is this hard? If you have no idea what common sense is, let alone have any, I can see this as being an issue; but come on, you should be smarter than this.

 

[Bajaratt]

ah, I miss read Sabia, my fault. But, I still assure you, people wouldn't be bashing him like they are Necrosis. That's where I have atleast one problem with this thread.

I'll grant that people wouldn't be jumping at Rones like they did Necrosis, but given people remembering other threads that show Necrosis in a negative light, it's not hard to understand why they woudl do that.