Legalizing Recreational Marijuana in CA - Up for Vote

[Jedigamer]

Is it really that easy for underage kids to get alchohol? By tossing a note in school?

I highly doubt that.

Believe me, I remember kids selling single cigs back in school too. This all stems to an entirely different problem.

I'm just looking out for people's safety, I've seen a lot of what the black market will do to people.

Yes. In their own home when their parents are gone, assuming their parents drink.

 

[Zaltana]

I'm sorry but regulating it will make it much harder for kids to obtain marijuana. You see, I understand fake IDs and kids smoking across the street at school - I was one myself. We smoked a lot of dope at school too, some kids even used harder drugs.

The fact remains, dealers do not have regulations, they will sell to whoever has cash. You don't need an older brother's passport or a fake ID.

Like I said, there are some small "mom and pop" stores that will sell kids cigarettes, but they are few and far inbetween. How many liquor stores will sell a minor alchohol? How many people tell you to wait till you're 19/21 when asking for a boot?

There are already undercover police officers who will "boot" alcohol for underage kids, only to arrest them for breaking the law. The same could easily be done with marijuana stores, as it will more than likely be sold in the same or similar establishments.

last time i checked. none of the bolded items are something i would be particularly fond of bragging about. There are reasons drugs are illegal in the first place. Weed is pretty much at the bottom of the danger list, as i have said its basically a cigarette anyway, and has caused many minor widespread inconveniences for users and those immediately around them. nothing major, but its still a drug. And as such is should fall under age limit laws and such just like other currently legal drugs. Laws are made for a reason.

 

[Dowzer]

Quit derailing the topic please. I was arguing that legalization will help keep it out of kids hands, more so than while it's prohibited. I'm 100% about the safety of our children, I don't want them ingesting illegal or legal narcotic substances.

If any of you are actually interested in why prohibtion will never end, or very soon at least, please watch "The Union."

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9077214414651731007#

The Union (2007)

SYNOPSIS

Ever wonder what British Columbia's most profitable industries are? Logging?
Fishing? Tourism? Ever think to include marijuana? If you haven't, think again.
No longer a hobby for the stereotypical hippie culture of the ‘60s, BC's illegal
marijuana trade industry has evolved into an unstoppable business giant,
dubbed by those involved as 'The Union'. Commanding upwards of $7 billion
Canadian annually, The Union’s roots stretch far and wide. With up to 85% of all
'BC Bud' being exported to the United States, the BC marijuana trade has
become an international issue with consequences that extend far beyond our
borders. When record profits are to be made, who are the players, and when do
their motives become questionable?
- Why is marijuana illegal?
- What health risks do we really face?
- Does prohibition work?
- What would happen if we taxed it?
- Medicine, paper, fuel, textiles, food, etc. Are we missing something?
Follow filmmaker Adam Scorgie as he dives head first into Canada's most
socially acceptable illegal activity. Along the way, Adam demystifies the
underground market and brings to light how such a large industry can
function while remaining illegal. By interviewing experts from around the
globe, including growers, clippers, police officers, criminologists, economists,
medical doctors, politicians and pop culture icons, Scorgie examines the cause
and effect nature of the business behind getting high.
Nobody's innocent in this exploration of an industry that may be profiting
more by being illegal. Join Adam Scorgie as he unravels the mystery of The
Union.

I was born in Vancouver General Hospital and I have lived in British Columbia my entire life.

 

[Zaltana]

then i misunderstood your post, i apologize. i'm arguing the same thing. I'm for the legalization. i know full well kids will never stop doing drugs, but to keep as much of a lid on it as possible i think it should be regulated.

 

[RaidrX]

The Union is a great video. I watched it through a while back and even if you only watch the first like 5-10 mins of it its pretty solid.

Back to tax money though, i mean when you look at that 7 billion dollar mark, thats alot of money to be made and thats just the revenue from BC bud. If you look at the tax on cigs, which is roughly 20% on a pack give or take, and if you applied that to just BC bud alone thatd be roughly 1.5 billion dollars in tax revenue. And sure the expenses would go down some if it was legal, and less would be spent because it would cost more to buy, but it would still be a shitload of money. Not to mention costs like Import/Export fees and taxes and the jobs it would create in growing, selling etc. And as stated before the money it would save from police expenses in busting people, the amount of money it costs in jailing those people, and it would be putting the money back into the economy and taxes instead of the pocket of dealers and gangs and so on.

Edit: More from the union. I just watched the first 15 mins over again and here are some interesting facts from that small portion alone:

Marijuana was first made illegal basically because 'blacks and mexicans used it and it helped them create devil music (jazz) and made them become enraged and violent' It was then made legal again for the hemp qualities in production for world war 2. Finally it was made illegal again in the 60s because the government was afraid it would make everyone lazy and the communist would use it against us when they attacked. So basically in the span of 30 years our government mad it illegal 2 times for the exact opposite reasons.

Tobacco is the #1 killer substance in american at roughly 400,000+ deaths a year, followed by alcohol at 80,000+ a year. Cannabis total? 0. In the entirety of the earths history, not 1 death has been directly related to cannabis. Oh and caffeine such as in coffee is linked to anywhere from 1-10k deaths a year.

Several studies show cannabis to be less addictive then even coffee. Most addictive being cigerettes, then alcohol, then hard drugs such as heroine, cocaine all followed up by coffee. Marijuana being pretty much the last on the list

Does not kill brain cells as one misguided study showed in the past (watch the video for more info, basically they blamed loss of brain cells on cannabis, when it was due to suffocation caused by how they were force smoking the monkey test subjects) and infact several new studies link cannabis to regeneration of brain cells.

On that same note, marijuana is not linked to lung cancer or emphysema either.

Definitely a good watch if you have the time.

 

[Celvantes]

Even if this gets passed (it won't), marijuana will still be illegal under federal law. The DEA could still show up whenever and wherever they want to make busts... it'll just be tried in federal court.

Would this happen every day? No, but they'd do it every so often just to prove a point.

 

[Icewolf]

Just watched the union, excellent documentary and so true. But I'm tired of trying to convince people why it should be legal, when all their reasons they give are a joke. People act like legalizing weed is suddenly gunna sprout a whole bunch of stoned idiots, but guess what? People smoke everyday, some more than others, and it wont change when it's legalized. Dancingweapon you drive beside stoners everyday.

 

[bigbroon]

If you don't like the way it affects you, then don't do it. It's a piss poor argument, but it's true. If you don't like how alcohol affects you, don't do it. If you don't like how marijuana affects you , don't do it. It's essentially one and the same. Legalizing pot won't suddenly mean everyone driving out there is stoned out of their mind and completely impaired. Yes, there will be people who abuse the drug, just as there are people that abuse alcohol, but most folks in either case are smarter than that, even when they are stoned or drunk. There is no significant difference between the ramifications of smoking pot and drinking alcohol, and in many cases marijuana is even less dangerous. It is only those people who abuse either one who will do stupid things. Yet one is legal and the other is not. One has repeatedly caused significant problems, and the other has not. I don't drink alcohol and I don't smoke marijuana, and frankly I can't stand either one in the least, but I will always defend a person's freedom to ingest either one as long as they're responsible for it.

Speaking as someone who lives in a county where just about everyone gets stoned at some point, do you know what causes more DUI crashes than anything?

Alcohol.

Know what doesn't?

Marijuana.

I don't think there has been a single DUI case in recent history in the entire county that has involved the driver being high on marijuana. That's not to say that it doesn't happen, as I'm sure it has and will, but it happens significantly less than alcohol related DUIs in an area where pot is a common commodity.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

This makes a lot of sense - people have this opinion of "getting high" I think they've obtained from the media, like if it's legalized, people will do it EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME, and people will drive stoned. Alcohol is legal, despite the fact it causes a huge amount of fatalities every year in most countries. Making pot legal will make sure people won't get a criminal record for something less dangerous than smoking, drinking, and many other things. Legalizing it everywhere can't come quick enough.

Also, if it becomes legal and the government tax it (which they will, like cigarettes and alcohol), think of the money they will generate from it. Governments make a bomb from tax on cigarettes and alcohol, even AFTER subtracting the costs of treating people negatively affected by these products. There are far less medical problems associated with pot, it even has medicinal properties. The positives for legalizing it far outweigh the negatives.

 

[Raesvelg]

Meh, I'm indifferent to the legalization of marijuana, so long as it doesn't serve as the precursor to people pushing for the legalization of significantly more dangerous drugs.

But I will address one thing: The studies that show that marijuana has a minimal effect on driving have an important fillip to note. Specifically, that while marijuana does impair your driving ability, the average person driving while high goes to great lengths to compensate for that fact. What the studies do not address is why. It's doubtful that it's an inherent aspect of the drug itself: most of the people I know who have driven while drunk, for example, have been well aware of their impairment and taken similar steps to compensate for it.

I'd wager that the reason is largely psychological; people don't take alcohol seriously, for the most part, but marijuana is a "drug".

 

[Dowzer]

Even if this gets passed (it won't), marijuana will still be illegal under federal law. The DEA could still show up whenever and wherever they want to make busts... it'll just be tried in federal court.

Would this happen every day? No, but they'd do it every so often just to prove a point.

This is true, it will not be passed. I can't see it being legalized during my lifetime. There are too many people who don't want it legalized. It's not because of people who don't like marijuana. It's because there are so many people who make a living doing this.

It's a snowball effect, the more growers and distributers being arrested creates more demand for the product, which in turn increases it's value. I can't fathom the other problems this creates, wasted tax dollars, violent crime and money laundering come to mind.

By legalizing, corporations would be able to drive down the value, to a point where growing and distributing wouldn't turn a profit.

As for driving while under the influence, I've been smoking for a decade and I avoid driving or operating heavy machinery at all costs. I understand some people are comfortable driving while stoned, but I've never been and because of that I won't risk my safety or those around me.

 

[Dowzer]

Meh, I'm indifferent to the legalization of marijuana, so long as it doesn't serve as the precursor to people pushing for the legalization of significantly more dangerous drugs.

Oh my god.

/facepalm

Vicodin.

 

[Romper]

Let's be realistic about this folks. Marijuana does not impare your driving skills like alcohol does, if at all. The U.S. Department of Transportation did a study on this by the way, and the results are there for you to view. Heck, it's less dangerous than talking on the phone and driving. I'm 34, and I've been smoking pot since high school, but I am not a giggling fool who can't recognize that there is a car in front of me when I drive. It is long overdue for this drug to become legal and its time for us to get rid of this silly negative social stigma that comes along with it.


I'm one of those people who is a functioning stoner. I work in IT for the U.S. Courts, so I am trustworthy enough to maintain systems full of peoples personal information. Heck, I get to roam around a Federal Building full of Federal Agents, and have access to restricted areas like Judges chambers, etc. I'm active with NORML and work to promote Marijuana Legalization and Regulation. Just like anything, people can abuse this and turn into lazy skeevy stoners, but it can also be enjoyed in moderation. I'm getting tired of being worried about being arrested for purchasing something I use to take the edge off, and losing everything I've worked for. I don't drink, and I don't smoke cigarettes.

Uhh you don't think lighting up while driving is risky? No matter what when you take your eyes off the road it's a risk.

It's funny that a pothead is paranoid about being caught and uses that as a justification to legalize your bad habit. Maybe you should talk to a doctor about getting something to help you relax that way you wouldn't stress even more. Although I'm sure a majority of that stress is fear of you being caught or smelling like pot while at work so that stress is self-inflicted. So maybe you should kick the your need for pot, and that edge will go away.

Oh my god.

/facepalm

Vicodin.

I can only take Vicodin or Tylenol 4 with codeine (acetaminophen) for when I have a severe pain issue as I am allergic to everything else. Both never really made me feel high or do anything that would make me addicted. I really don't see how people get addicted because I was taking 2 Vicodin at a time when I was at the worst point of pain from when I bruised my meniscus (it doesn't sound that painful but from walking at school and fluid that shit would really get me). They just took the edge of the pain away. What did make me feel really good? Muscle relaxers.

 

[RaidrX]

Uhh you don't think lighting up while driving is risky? No matter what when you take your eyes off the road it's a risk.

It's funny that a pothead is paranoid about being caught and uses that as a justification to legalize your bad habit. Maybe you should talk to a doctor about getting something to help you relax that way you wouldn't stress even more. Although I'm sure a majority of that stress is fear of you being caught or smelling like pot while at work so that stress is self-inflicted. So maybe you should kick the your need for pot, and that edge will go away.

Again, just because its legalized doesnt mean you'll be able to smoke and drive, just as you drive with an open bottle. Also one thing that hasn't been brought up yet is how long the effects of marijuana last. The extreme high lasts for like 20mins or so after smoking, with the smoker being pretty much back to functional after an hour, depending of course on how much you smoke and the person but usually about an hour. So unless you take like 3 bong hits then jump directly into the car you probably are gonna be okay. But as Dozer said, I myself would not feel safe smoking and then driving. I just wouldn't do it. Sure some people would, but I can pretty much guarantee you do now, and still would, drive by more piss drunk people than stoned people on the roads.

Also I dont really see how jedis comments lead into driving. He was just saying, hes a responsable and successful individual who likes to relax and smoke, much like many people like to relax and drink, and would rather not be worried about losing his job over a trival issue. If you want to smoke in your own home and be safe about it why should that be illegal.

I can only take Vicodin or Tylenol 4 with codeine (acetaminophen) for when I have a severe pain issue as I am allergic to everything else. Both never really made me feel high or do anything that would make me addicted. I really don't see how people get addicted because I was taking 2 Vicodin at a time when I was at the worst point of pain from when I bruised my meniscus (it doesn't sound that painful but from walking at school and fluid that shit would really get me). They just took the edge of the pain away. What did make me feel really good? Muscle relaxers.

If memory serves me right, from your posts in other threads, youre a fairly big guy. So it would make sense that only a few pills in moderation wouldn't be bad. Just like smoking a bowl here and there isn't bad either. I used to smoke quite a bit, and yet I've been able to put it off for 3-4 months now while job searchin with out a problem. Not once have I felt the need to smoke. Like i posted before, weed is less addictive than coffee and prescription medicine such as Vicodin. It may not effect you, but that doesnt mean the same hold true for the general public.

 

[Dowzer]

I can only take Vicodin or Tylenol 4 with codeine (acetaminophen) for when I have a severe pain issue as I am allergic to everything else. Both never really made me feel high or do anything that would make me addicted. I really don't see how people get addicted because I was taking 2 Vicodin at a time when I was at the worst point of pain from when I bruised my meniscus (it doesn't sound that painful but from walking at school and fluid that shit would really get me). They just took the edge of the pain away. What did make me feel really good? Muscle relaxers.

I didn't mean to single out Vicodin, it was only an example of an opiate. They're much less potent than those on the street but the risk is still there. People abuse these, overdose on them, and create a multitude of problems we're probably not aware of. I mean jeez, open the celebrity tabloids.

I remember talking to a person who had taken Oxycodone or Oxycontin, regardless which it was, his pupils were the size of the pointed end of a needle. He offered me some from a prescription bottle, I've never touched an opiate and don't plan on experimenting with it, so I said no.

They are not meant for recreational use. They are strictly regulated too. However, this doesn't stop people from creating a black market for recreational users. Pharmacuticals are being widely abused in this fashion. They are significantly more dangerous than marijuana.

 

[Raesvelg]

Oh my god.

/facepalm

Vicodin.

Oh my god.

/facepalm

Vicodin is illegal to use without a prescription.

I don't get your point here. "People abuse it, so let them?"

 

[Dowzer]

Oh my god.

/facepalm

Vicodin is illegal to use without a prescription.

I don't get your point here. "People abuse it, so let them?"

It was an example of a powerful, yet legal treatment for pain.

That's the problem with it, they're legalized under harsh restrictions, yet rectreational users still find them.

I'm against the legalization of hard drugs, but unfortunately we already have a few causing problems. Sorry for the melodramatic wording and facepalm, that's all I was trying to say.

 

[Jedigamer]

Uhh you don't think lighting up while driving is risky? No matter what when you take your eyes off the road it's a risk.

It's funny that a pothead is paranoid about being caught and uses that as a justification to legalize your bad habit. Maybe you should talk to a doctor about getting something to help you relax that way you wouldn't stress even more. Although I'm sure a majority of that stress is fear of you being caught or smelling like pot while at work so that stress is self-inflicted. So maybe you should kick the your need for pot, and that edge will go away.



I can only take Vicodin or Tylenol 4 with codeine (acetaminophen) for when I have a severe pain issue as I am allergic to everything else. Both never really made me feel high or do anything that would make me addicted. I really don't see how people get addicted because I was taking 2 Vicodin at a time when I was at the worst point of pain from when I bruised my meniscus (it doesn't sound that painful but from walking at school and fluid that shit would really get me). They just took the edge of the pain away. What did make me feel really good? Muscle relaxers.

For one, I don't smoke at work, during work, or before work. Changing your CD or pressing forward on your iPod while driving is also dangerous. One thing is for sure, I will not stand for an impecunious bairn talking down to me.

There is an irrefutable connection between drug prohibition and the crime, corruption, disease and death it causes. If you are not capable of understanding this connection, then maybe you're using something far stronger than the rest of us. Anybody 'halfway bright' and who's not psychologically challenged, should be capable of understanding, that it is not simply the demand for drugs that creates the mayhem; it is our refusal to allow legal businesses to meet that demand.

No amount of money, police powers, weaponry, diminution of rights and liberties, wishful thinking or pseudo-science will make our streets safer; only an end to prohibition can do that. How much longer are you willing to foolishly risk your own survival by continuing to ignore the obvious, historically confirmed solution?

If you still support the kool aid mass suicide cult of prohibition, and erroneously believe that you can win a war without logic and practical solutions, then prepare yourself for even more death, corruption, terrorism, sickness, imprisonment, unemployment, foreclosed homes, and the complete loss of the rule of law and the Bill of Rights.

"A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded."
Abraham Lincoln

The only thing prohibition successfully does is prohibit regulation & taxation while turning even our schools and prisons into black markets for drugs. Regulation would mean the opposite!

 

[RaidrX]

"A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded."
Abraham Lincoln

He was a pretty smart guy, wasn't he?

Also this:

Dr. Burke, president of the American Historical Reference Society and a consultant for the Smithsonian Institute, counted seven early presidents as cannabis smokers: George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Andrew Jackson, Zachary Taylor and Franklin Pierce. "Early letters from our founding fathers refer to the pleasures of hemp smoking," said Burke. Pierce, Taylor and Jackson, all military men, smoked it with their troops. Cannabis was twice as popular among American soldiers in the Mexican War as in Vietnam: Pierce wrote to his family that it was "about the only good thing" about that war.

http://www.umsl.edu/~keelr/180/highsociety.html

 

[Morcheeba]

You know what, as a pot smoker and coming from pot smoking parents I think a lot arguments in this thread blow.

That's the long and short of it. People blow the use of pot SOO out of proportion it's sad really.

The 'problem' of legalizing pot.. is letting people like my parents, me, and a MASSIVE number of professionals that you all work with on a daily a doob after a long fucking day busting our asses.

My family has alcoholism in our blood. Unfortunately just about all lines of blood in my immediate family have a history of alcoholism. My parents avoid it for the most part, my dad enjoys a beer here or there while building ice fishing huts with buddies etc. My mother.. very rarely, but these 2 deserve their natures valium when booze isn't the relaxer it is to a lot of us after hard days working for the man.

There are always going to be irresponsible inconsiderate fucks driving on our roads. Pot isn't the cause of that, and someone mentioned that it's not as if legalizing pot is going to have a large effect on the number of people who smoke and drive. Trust me, those stoners who are comfortable driving while they toke are already doing so, not waiting for someone to say it okay.

I am not one of those people. I can't drive when I'm high, well I can actually, and I have but I find I am slower. I tend to drive 10 or so km p/hour slower.. I take my time. But ultimately I'm not comfortable driving after I smoked. It's a personal choice any adult is perfectly capable of making, and should make, just the same if it were 4 beers they had.


Whatever, I've seen this argument so many times. From the political/social side.. the pros out weight the cons. From the economic/personal side.. the pros out weight the cons. It'll always be a waste of our judicial resources.

 

[Pompidou]

I hope the proposition passes, personally. I don't believe the government should legislate drugs because they cause people to do bad things. I think the government should legislate the bad things. If pot causes people to drive akin to being under the influence of alcohol, then legislate against driving stoned. If prostitution leads to human trafficking, than prosecute against human trafficking. If drug addiction leads to crimes like theft and such, than prosecute the crimes. There are tons of things that can cause bad things to happen. You don't see congress outlawing marriage because it leads to spousal abuse. They should stick to legislating the actual problems, and not cherry picking a handful of scapegoat causes. I think, if I were dictator, I could trim hundreds of laws off the books. There should be a few basic laws, like against theft, murder, rape, etc, but really, leave the petty stuff alone. Prison inmates are expensive.