Meastoso and Garbageman Pauk

[Firestreak]

fire- to me,that typically doesnt work too well because it conflicts with a large majority of events that come up in the linkshell, especially on weekends.

Well you could say the same about dynamis and limbus. I'm sure just like most kaizen members join loveless that most kaizen members would join the same sky shell, or just create one amongst the people who still need sky gear / want to support the shell.

 

[Artem]

Well you could say the same about dynamis and limbus. I'm sure just like most kaizen members join loveless that most kaizen members would join the same sky shell, or just create one amongst the people who still need sky gear / want to support the shell.

It's a noble idea, but with dynamis twice a week, losing members to a shell to do sky twice a week. Only leaves 3 days a week, and a lot of people like to not be on *every* day, so toss out a day on average, so that leave about 2 days a week where people would be able to do our primary objectives. But this is based on the idea that people work during the day and play in the evening when dynamis and sky would take place. If everyone didn't have jobs and could play all the time, this would be quite workable.

EDITED: said twice a day instead of twice a week, my bad

 

[Firestreak]

About Linkshell hoppers, or "Stealing other shells resources"

Not to de-rail this…but seriously, I am tired of seeing these kinds of statements. MOST Linkshells that do end game, are full of shit…they recruit and recruit, set up rules for all kinds of End game things, Kings, Wyrms, Sky…but 95% of them STAY IN SKY. They use the crutch “Oh, we have to get geared up to move onto Kings and such, and people leave, so we can’t move on” and I have watched many King fights, and this statement is total bullshit. Sky gear =/= the King killer, it is skilled players. Gear does help, but with so many options out there now, AF +1, AF2, Assault Gear, sky is no longer the bottle neck everyone thinks it is…hell, it never was. So when new recruits, join these sky linkshells, that promote themselves as HNM/King/Sky ls…and spend all their time camping Uli crying and moaning about cc or rmt, or whateverwethinkisholdingusbackbutourfuckingselves, then the people who stay with them, get tired of it, tired of the drama…and move on, are called shell hoppers. I think, most Linkshells are false advertisement, spouting bullshit and promises to get people to join, knowing God damn well they are too chicken shit to at least trying and failing to bigger fights.

A sky ls is not the end all to end game, many old timers are sick of sky…and many new recruits get there and are like “wtf, this is end game???” So when larger shells, who actually do “END GAME” not pieces of it, gobble up your disillusioned members, stop crying and moaning about it…and look at your own damn shell, and figure out what it is you are or are NOT doing, that causes member loss.

I don't think getting the gear is the problem as much as getting the people itself is the problem. Sky is where most people stay not because they need sky gear to move on but because they need the people and the skill to move on. Sky is the start for endgame people, how they learn to fight big NMs, how to camp, how to collect pop items and build up. Take a regular new sky linkshell and throw them at kings and you've got a dead linkshell - because their people just aren't ready yet.

Throw into it that the best of them and the ones that are geared up are going to often just toss the shell and you have to replace them with people who are brand new to endgame. The people who become resentful are the people who are by nature very loyal and watch their members get siphoned off. Making the assumption they all just "couldn't hack it" and that's why they're not in Kaizen is almost offensive... maybe they prefer to stay loyal to the linkshell they're in?

 

[Firestreak]

It's a noble idea, but with dynamis twice a week, losing members to a shell to do sky twice a week. Only leaves 3 days a week, and a lot of people like to not be on *every* day, so toss out a day on average, so that leave about 2 days a week where people would be able to do our primary objectives. But this is based on the idea that people work during the day and play in the evening when dynamis and sky would take place. If everyone didn't have jobs and could play all the time, this would be quite workable.

EDITED: said twice a day instead of twice a week, my bad

Well I don't know how rigorous the king camping requirements are, but I'd assume as time goes on and more people gear up that unless you bleed too many people or people all level jobs to capitalize on smaller lines - you'll eventually be able to shift your focus towards sea more, which would allow for a more structured schedule not dependant on shifting pop times - so that you can schedule a sky and sea schedule correspondingly.

 

[Artem]

Well I don't know how rigorous the king camping requirements are, but I'd assume as time goes on and more people gear up that unless you bleed too many people or people all level jobs to capitalize on smaller lines - you'll eventually be able to shift your focus towards sea more, which would allow for a more structured schedule not dependant on shifting pop times - so that you can schedule a sky and sea schedule correspondingly.

Yes, but people wouldn't be able to simply leave sky ls after getting gear, they would have to continue helping. So even if you are not losing new members constantly to get gear, the people who got their gear would have an obligation to keep helping, but then a problem arises, it's last day for nidhogg, who do you go with sky or nidhogg?

If you just lend people in your ls to another sky ls and then take them right back after they get gear is counter productive and would actually result in more flaming because you are just using that sky linkshell for gear.

Edit, sorry: Look at JDA/Integralis w/e, they have been around the longest and they are still active in fafnir/aspid camps. You never completely move on from HNMs, just like you never completely leave sky. Eventually after moving to sea you would have to lend people to an HNM ls to get some land items you missed, etc. Plus Sea is so inefficient HNMs give better results and fast, and that's just sad.

 

[sirivalin]

Throw into it that the best of them and the ones that are geared up are going to often just toss the shell and you have to replace them with people who are brand new to endgame. The people who become resentful are the people who are by nature very loyal and watch their members get siphoned off. Making the assumption they all just "couldn't hack it" and that's why they're not in Kaizen is almost offensive... maybe they prefer to stay loyal to the linkshell they're in?

I see your point on training grounds...but that is not the only one. You can just as easily train on Baby HNM, Train in Sea, KS99, is it perfect training? No, but the best training is actually attempting...there is more options to getting people the basic strats to win. Plus, if you can't put a strategy before someone, and them at least be ready to try it, then they are not truly skilled. We could debate all day, why so many people hit 75 on thier first job these days, and don't have a clue how to accomplish anything short of a cannon. Things that were placed in this game, to prepare you for end game, start at lvl 20...Garrison, Expeditionary Force, Harder BCNM...all these are rarely done anymore.

But as far as your hack it statement...I said "big shells" not just Kaizen, there are several who go after Kings and Wyrms, although some are better at it than others, they at least try. Also, never confuse "Linkshell loyalty" to what it really is...friend loyalty. Some, prefer to fight, along side real life friends, or long time friends from the game...some may not truly want to do more outside end game, than sky. This is where your "Hardcore" membership comes from...everyone else, is playing the game for the content, the expierence, the fun, the gear...and if your shell, can't move them into the "hardcore" column, they will move on, until they find what they are looking for.

Some people are leeches...not speaking of those...I'm speaking of the majority of people who want the fuck out of sky, and have no other bonds there to keep them in that hell hole for eternity.

 

[Firestreak]

Yes, but people wouldn't be able to simply leave sky ls after getting gear, they would have to continue helping. So even if you are not losing new members constantly to get gear, the people who got their gear would have an obligation to keep helping, but then a problem arises, it's last day for nidhogg, who do you go with sky or nidhogg?

If you just lend people in your ls to another sky ls and then take them right back after they get gear is counter productive and would actually result in more flaming because you are just using that sky linkshell for gear.

Edit, sorry: Look at JDA/Integralis w/e, they have been around the longest and they are still active in fafnir/aspid camps. You never completely move on from HNMs, just like you never completely leave sky. Eventually after moving to sea you would have to lend people to an HNM ls to get some land items you missed, etc. Plus Sea is so inefficient HNMs give better results and fast, and that's just sad.

Well there is an eventual end to which you can just leave sky on good terms. You have people like Francheska or whoever who got Osode and 2 hours later was gone from shell without even saying goodbye. Or you have people who get in, get gear, remember who was on the lines at the time that they got their gear and stay til all those people have the gear... then when it's only new people who need stuff, then go.

The linkshell itself would never die, just cycle through people - and no one would have to feel slighted. Of course, too many people could leave at once as a result of being too successful in too short a time, requiring a lot of people, but can always just help out in those times of trouble.

As for hnm, yeah, maybe you'll never get out. Kind of a shitty system, considering more and more people getting in. But then on other servers after so much time, they're not camped so badly - I know of people who changed servers and within a month had full koenig because nobody camps kings except 1 LS. On other servers what's actually camped is the dynamis trail marker for people who want relic weapons cause that's all that's left for them to do. Of course those other servers had people killing AV a year ago. I like to look at how things are going on the other servers and simply assume eventually we'll be where they are now - it's been right so far, as we're where they used to be.

I see your point on training grounds...but that is not the only one. You can just as easily train on Baby HNM, Train in Sea, KS99, is it perfect training? No, but the best training is actually attempting...there is more options to getting people the basic strats to win. Plus, if you can't put a strategy before someone, and them at least be ready to try it, then they are not truly skilled. We could debate all day, why so many people hit 75 on thier first job these days, and don't have a clue how to accomplish anything short of a cannon. Things that were placed in this game, to prepare you for end game, start at lvl 20...Garrison, Expeditionary Force, Harder BCNM...all these are rarely done anymore.

But as far as your hack it statement...I said "big shells" not just Kaizen, there are several who go after Kings and Wyrms, although some are better at it than others, they at least try. Also, never confuse "Linkshell loyalty" to what it really is...friend loyalty. Some, prefer to fight, along side real life friends, or long time friends from the game...some may not truly want to do more outside end game, than sky. This is where your "Hardcore" membership comes from...everyone else, is playing the game for the content, the expierence, the fun, the gear...and if your shell, can't move them into the "hardcore" column, they will move on, until they find what they are looking for.

Some people are leeches...not speaking of those...I'm speaking of the majority of people who want the fuck out of sky, and have no other bonds there to keep them in that hell hole for eternity.

Speaking from personal experience, I stayed in my linkshell til it broke because linkshell loyalty and nothing else. Most of my friends were in other shells although I made some eventually in mine. Of course we all insert our personal biases into how we ponder other people's motivations - like me assuming the people are sticking around cause of loyalty and Phraust assuming all his shellmates aren't there to gain gear.

 

[Firestreak]

Just to throw out there, the demand may actually perpetuate itself, as the land king gear is so hard to get it as a result is higher value based on it's difficulty in obtaining because the competition. As a result, more people want it. More people want an A body than haidates for example, because people see A body as harder to get, even though it's not a big of a boost comparatively. Then when you look at sea, those torques are SO good that they're actually worth the effort.

Here's another fun thing to think about. Imagine all the linkshells that camp fafnir every day. Put them together into one massive linkshell and kill Absolute virtue every day. Ninhurta sash or fafnir drops? Yes that's only 1 sash for all the linkshells - just like only 1 fafnir for all the linkshells. This is just the stuff that makes me think, "why why why?"

 

[Artem]

Just to throw out there, the demand may actually perpetuate itself, as the land king gear is so hard to get it as a result is higher value based on it's difficulty in obtaining because the competition. As a result, more people want it. More people want an A body than haidates for example, because people see A body as harder to get, even though it's not a big of a boost comparatively. Then when you look at sea, those torques are SO good that they're actually worth the effort.

Here's another fun thing to think about. Imagine all the linkshells that camp fafnir every day. Put them together into one massive linkshell and kill Absolute virtue every day. Ninhurta sash or fafnir drops? Yes that's only 1 sash for all the linkshells - just like only 1 fafnir for all the linkshells. This is just the stuff that makes me think, "why why why?"

Ridill > 100x ninurta's sash though

 

[Firestreak]

Ninurta's sash Rare
(Waist) All Races
DEF: 6 Attack +6 Haste +6%
"Subtle Blow" +6
Spell interruption rate down 6%
Lv. 75 All Jobs

---

I don't really agree with you there. Especially because the sash can be used by ninjas Even on warriors, I can see a sash warrior with 8 axe merit outparsing a ridill warrior with 8 sword merits. An on thf, with the dagger damage boost, the attack bonus coupled with dagger merits may turn a ninurta sash thf into a more competative DD by giving them good damage while Tping.

Plus all jobs are attack spammers and therefore all jobs therefore benefit from the reduction in TP given to the mobs. Specially if you have a ninja tanking wyrms or something that feeds off that TP.

 

[Antor]

Haste has a cap. Occasionally attacks two or three times does not.

 

[Firestreak]

The 6% haste isn't what makes the sash so great, compare it's relative stats to other comparable TP getting belts...

Swift Belt RareExclusive
(Waist) All Races
Accuracy +3 Attack -5 Haste +4%
Lv. 50 All Jobs

-3 accuracy, +10 attack, +2 haste% +6% spell interupt, +6 subtle blow + 8 defense

Speed Belt
(Waist) All Races
Haste +6%
Lv. 55 WAR / RDM / THF / PLD / DRK / BST
BRD / RNG / SAM / NIN / DRG / BLU / COR

+5 attack, +6% spell interupt, +6 subtle blow + 8 defense

(and note, most people don't have speed belt even in kings, so it'll be mostly a jump from the swift belt)

 

[Antor]

-6% spell interruption does nothing for your DoT. If ichi ichi ni doesn't last an entire fight in which you'd be using a Ridill (we are talking meripo, right?) then you're doing it wrong or your party is incredibly gimp.

+5 attack doesn't make up for roughly an extra attack every round. If you get unlucky and only hit once of the three possible hits, as a Warrior you have the chance to still double attack. You're basically going to be hitting 1, 2, 2, or 3 times per round with a Ridill, which averages out to 2 attacks per round for a Ridill.

Do you seriously think +5 attack and using an Axe will make up for that in a parse?

 

[Firestreak]

5 attack, using an axe and 16 axe skill, yes.

As for the comment about haste cap, consider this...

20% march
15% haste spell
dusk gloves +1 4%
walahra turban 5%
ninhurta sash 6%
haidates 5%
fuma sune-ate 3%

The equipment cap for haste% is 25% and the total cap for melee damage for haste is somewhere in the 70% range, I'm assuming this has only been reached with soul voice. At 66% haste, you'll get in your rounds 3 times as fast... which means each axe is basically a ridill.

 

[Rappa]

If only you could equip +haste gear.... AND a ridill..... DUNDUNDUNNNNN. Oh, and fuma sune-ate on war?

 

[Antor]

Okay, you're arguing that Ninhurta Sash with two axes is better than any combination of capped sword merits, a Ridill, a second weapon (including any axe or sword you want to use), and any belt other than Ninhurta Sash. Keep in mind that there is a fuckton of +sword skill available in gear, including a piece of gear that increases the effect of dual wield, further making you faster. And who is to say you can't mainhand an axe to keep Rampage?

The whole point of DoT is to attack the monster as fast as possible while still doing decent damage (so no to a Kraken Club on a Warrior). Hitting two times on average per round with a single weapon is effectively haste in itself. You TP faster in a Ridill setup. You weapon skill faster in a Ridill setup.

 

[Firestreak]

Well I'm a nin so I'm talking about my dream gear here... lol.

 

[Firestreak]

Okay, you're arguing that Ninhurta Sash with two axes is better than any combination of capped sword merits, a Ridill, a second weapon (including any axe or sword you want to use), and any belt other than Ninhurta Sash. Keep in mind that there is a fuckton of +sword skill available in gear, including a piece of gear that increases the effect of dual wield, further making you faster. And who is to say you can't mainhand an axe to keep Rampage?

The whole point of DoT is to attack the monster as fast as possible while still doing decent damage (so no to a Kraken Club on a Warrior). Hitting two times on average per round with a single weapon is effectively haste in itself. You TP faster in a Ridill setup. You weapon skill faster in a Ridill setup.

The sword skill in gear is stats you're taking away from other gear you can possible equip. The dual wield helps axe/axe warriors as much as axe/sword warriors and yes I know suppanomi already has both. (Not that everyone can get one, there are people out there who picked another earring for other jobs.)
The thing here is when you are considering being an axe/sword warrior, you have to consider the benefits and the drawbacks. It's been parsed and generally agreed upon that an axe/joyeuse war is not going to beat an axe/axe warrior, what we're looking for is having the boost of a sword to be good enough to justify losing the weapon you're best in on your offhand as well as 16 attack and 16 accuracy in your main hand. Which is why things like having 5 more attack in both hands, like you'd get from speed>sash, or 10 more attack and 2 more haste, like from swift to sash, may tip the scale and make the axe/axe warrior yet again, more efficient.

Not even to mention the bonus for endgame of 6 subtle blow, 6 interupt... can be used by ninja... can be traded...

If only you could equip +haste gear.... AND a ridill..... DUNDUNDUNNNNN. Oh, and fuma sune-ate on war?

Well the best would be for WAR a ridill and a sash...

 

[Sirelrohir]

lol I don't think I'm the one that gets driven up the wall. But let's look at some facts. The fact that your friends hack and thats okay by you. Also, the fact that you try to act above everyone else and accuse others of cheating when you support your friends who are the real cheaters. Where do you get off acting like your better hypocrite?

You also do this without naming any sources which you have bitched and moaned for months about how thats what Kabrina did to you. Even quoting her in your signature and yet you do the same to others? Hypocrite again lolol. The hilarious part is that it turned out her sources were actually right. That is what drives you up the wall and I'm sorry the truth hurts emo guy.

Oh crosis, will you ever learn? Did I ever say that I condone hacking? Do me a favor and quote me where I said that. No, of course not. I said I would not abandon my friend b/c according to some website they hacked. Like I said, this is a game. Unlike you, I value my friends. You just value yourself. Its ok kid, you'll grow out of it. Now, be a good little sport and go listen to some my chemical romance (i think i got it right this time).

Now for hypocrasy. You are one of the people that were gung ho about outting others as hackers. You do this based on absolutly no proof what so ever and based purely on hearsay. Then when the same thing happens to one of your friends, well, apparantly its not ok. You go so far as to say that a person shouldnt base rumors on hearsay. Its funny that you do not see the hypocrasy in this. Open your eyes little guy.

You also contend that kabrina's sources were right. Fact is, she apparantly was only partly right. She lied about at least 2 other people in her statement. You know, the part pertaining to myself and meridith. But you dont mention this. On top of that, you defend your friend, jamal, that was outted as a hacker, and was a member of kaizen at one point. Yes, thats right, people know he was hacking while in your shell. Your shell does do what you complain about others. But no, your not a hypocrite, right? Then there was the uli stones that you buy from rmt, then claim that you didnt know they were rmt. Are you telling me that you truly are that dumb?

As for me being better then you. Well, in this case you are right. But it has nothing to do with the game. It has to do with your attitude. So, the next time you decide to slit your wrists, just remember, your shell and friends hack, just as much as anyone else.

 

[Rappa]

Well the best would be for WAR a ridill and a sash...

Well the point is that you can always get haste from various places but you can only get Ridill from one. Anything you could try to compensate would just make the war w/ Ridill even better. So really, there's no single better piece of war equip in the game than Ridill.