Middleclass? no stimulus for you!

[Javir]

Middleclass? no stimulus for you! Oh, and don't forget to pay your taxes to pay for all this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opxuUj6vFa4



I hope that regardless of your party affiliation that you take a long, hard look at what is being said here. Middle class, especially white male middle class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#Social_class

Based on this, its roughly a household income of $35,000 - $100,000 as of 2005 to be what is considered to be middle class. You might not get anything if you're in the 'working class' either (roughly $16,000 - $40,00). Note these values are based on national averages from 2005.

I don't know about you guys, but I'll be talking to my Senators and tell them what they can do with their jobs if they support these views or any package with these views as a guideline to their implementation. Its not what he said alone that upsets me most... its the fact that it doesn't seam like many are standing up and telling him he's wrong.

Thankfully, for the moment I'm secure. This "stimulus" has been called racist and congressional thievery (stealing from our futures and the futures of future generations). There is the possibility of all this money causing hyperinflation... Some of this might be fear mongering or it might be true. You guys thought that RMT Christmas was bad... well they're not the only ones making it possible to put stupid amounts of money into the system.

 

[Tristam Green]

Middleclass? no stimulus for you! Oh, and don't forget to pay your taxes to pay for all this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opxuUj6vFa4



I hope that regardless of your party affiliation that you take a long, hard look at what is being said here. Middle class, especially white male middle class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#Social_class

Based on this, its roughly a household income of $35,000 - $100,000 as of 2005 to be what is considered to be middle class. You might not get anything if you're in the 'working class' either (roughly $16,000 - $40,00). Note these values are based on national averages from 2005.

I don't know about you guys, but I'll be talking to my Senators and tell them what they can do with their jobs if they support these views or any package with these views as a guideline to their implementation. Its not what he said alone that upsets me most... its the fact that it doesn't seam like many are standing up and telling him he's wrong.

Thankfully, for the moment I'm secure. This "stimulus" has been called racist and congressional thievery (stealing from our futures and the futures of future generations). There is the possibility of all this money causing hyperinflation... Some of this might be fear mongering or it might be true. You guys thought that RMT Christmas was bad... well they're not the only ones making it possible to put stupid amounts of money into the system.

Personal opinion: I outlined the key point of your thesis.

Professional question: What would *you* have them do? Aside from telling them where they can stick their jobs.

 

[Dejavu]

Well the obama camp has to repay all those who voted for him which is largely the uneducated inner city minorities and far left tree huggers.

The tree huggers got obama to cancel the oil leases in Utah and the inner city people get this.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_11683549

 

[Javir]

I was hoping for more comments before I really posted again...

But really, I'd have them spend this time, and if need be money to rebuild the banking systems. Make them have more than 10% in cash on hand to use for giving out loans (somewhere like 70-80% at least). The only part of the Stimulus I really see being a good idea is infrastructure. The lower tax is $7-8 a week based on information I've seen, so that will hardly get people to spend more. At best if you got it all at once, we'd possibly have a spike in spending and a new lul immediately after.

With the Infrastructure you'll make jobs. Let people who can actually do it well get the jobs. Let construction companies bid out the jobs so that you get the lowest price that can meet time, material and what ever other necessary guidelines (such as safety for bridges) and therefore have more money for other jobs. Keep in mind, this is based on the idea that the total amount of money would have to be approved beforehand by Congress. The money should be handed down to states though as they're closer to their weak areas.

I could go on about some more ideas, but its late and I'm getting a cold.. I also want to hear more about what others think, not just myself.

 

[Halifirien]

Middle class, especially white male middle class.

So... you would prefer that the construction jobs only go to white construction workers? I don't see the problem with the guy basically saying he'd like to make sure we're not sending every penny straight into the Good Ol' Boy network when other equally-qualified people could use the opportunity to build stuff or learn the trade so they can become professional construction workers as well.

If you're a white construction worker, I guess you have my sympathy for feeling like you're being pissed on (a feeling I view as misguided, considering they didn't say anything about keeping the money away from white folks). Otherwise, what are you worried about?

Sounds like race-baiting and fear-mongering wrapped up in a neat little package to me.

 

[Dejavu]

No his point was that there was no reason for them to make any distinction about who the construction workers were at all and by stating that they didn't want the jobs to go to white construction workers they are in fact making the problem worse because the jobs should go to whoever is most qualified not necessarily who needs them most even though at the moment anyone who works construction needs help no matter their race...

Also Javir is an Eskimo.

 

[Tristam Green]

Sounds like race-baiting and fear-mongering wrapped up in a neat little package to me.

No his point was that there was no reason for them to make any distinction about who the construction workers were at all and by stating that they didn't want the jobs to go to white construction workers they are in fact making the problem worse because the jobs should go to whoever is most qualified not necessarily who needs them most even though at the moment anyone who works construction needs help no matter their race...

The point is that, in order to pass this bill, especially in line with their mantra of change, they do need to make some ounce of distinction. It amounts to telling (some of) the people "hey, this will affect YOU in this way", not "hey, let's shit on whitey for once!!'

Also Javir is an Eskimo.

k, I'm German/Dutch, nice to know!

 

[Halifirien]

No his point was that there was no reason for them to make any distinction about who the construction workers were at all and by stating that they didn't want the jobs to go to white construction workers they are in fact making the problem worse...

Except that he never said he didn't want the money to go to white construction workers. He said he didn't want all of it to go to white construction workers. That's an important distinction.

 

[Morwen]

Also Javir is an Eskimo.

I have nothing more to say than, I agree with Hali.

Other than that, to the quoted: That is actually considered as a derogatory comment by a lot of Inuit, Yupik and Aleut people. The bigger fuss comes from the Inuit of Canada and Greenland moreso than of Alaska, but its still not uncommon to get a side-long glance if you say it.

That's my comment, ta-da.

 

[Javir]

Except that he never said he didn't want the money to go to white construction workers. He said he didn't want all of it to go to white construction workers. That's an important distinction.

I have nothing more to say than, I agree with Hali.

Other than that, to the quoted: That is actually considered as a derogatory comment by a lot of Inuit, Yupik and Aleut people. The bigger fuss comes from the Inuit of Canada and Greenland moreso than of Alaska, but its still not uncommon to get a side-long glance if you say it.

That's my comment, ta-da.

First of all, I'm the whitest damn Eskimo I've ever seen. But that isn't the reason why I pointed this out. That quote was my intention to say "if you are a middle class white male" pay extra attention. I don't care about race/color. My step-father is black, I've dated girls and guys that almost all had different ethnicity.

I am one of the most pro-equality people you'll ever get to know, if you bother to get to know me. THAT is why I pointed this out. If this nation is trying to get away from race and gender bigotry then we have to stop compounding the issue.


With that aside, I'm looking for more political points of views.

edit: (added following instead of making a double post)

Except that he never said he didn't want the money to go to white construction workers. He said he didn't want all of it to go to white construction workers. That's an important distinction.

My second post said I wanted the money to focus on infrastructure. Without racial references I might add.

 

[Dejavu]

Lol the only reason i said Javir was an Eskimo btw is because we like to make fun of him in vent asking him how he has internet in his igloo and how hard it is to take the dogsled to work in the morning. Im sure javi got the joke but i now understand a bit why few others may not have understood it.

 

[Aaleel]

Well honestly I never really give any ear to things when people talk excerpts out of something and try to frame them a certain way. You have what 3 1/2 minutes out of what was probably a multi-hour hearing. You don't even have the questions that prompted the responses., and most of the responses are cut off before they're finished.

It's no different then from when people tried to take singles sentences from Obama's book during the campaign, but if people read the entire book they would see the entire picture.

Cherrypicking quotes in and of itself should be the first warning sign. This person is obviously biased.

The one quote said minorities AND women, but the author of this chose to focus just on saying regardless of skin color, nothing about OR gender. After I saw that one I knew the author of this has other issues.

He said flat out, I have nothing against white construction workers, but I want them to go to other people in need AS WELL.

So basically my opinion is show the whole hearing even if you have to break into 30 ten minute segments, or don't show anything. Cherry-picking is the worst way to make a point, especially when you follow it with what YOU think it means.

 

[Strid]

To be honest this whole shibang is the middle class' fault to begin with, they don't deserve anything out of it. More clearly, the middle class people who feel they need to live outside their means. You can blame the banks for givin' out loans to people who, in a world without Clinton, wouldn't have gotten loans for such absurd amounts but if idiots didn't take advantage of this, we wouldn't be here in the first place. I guess stupid is really is as stupid does because the stimulus "plans" are the same damn thing. Sure it'll prolly smooth over things, but only for now. I can't wait for everyone to see the negative effects that'll hit down the road and will be blamed on the republican president who had nothin' to do with them.

To be more clear on my stance of this whole "stimulus" crap I'll make it simple, stimulus plans = the NEW subprime lending pressure policies put into effect by the adored Clinton administration. We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Clinton's "brilliant" idea of providin' "equal opportunity loans" and when we hit this crunch again it'll be from an even dumber "aid", Obamas "brilliant" stimulus packages.

It took this long for subprime lendin' to catch up and these are the effects, how long until the stimulus plan catches up? I guarantee you the current White House doesn't even care, it's probably rollin' around in there somewhere, "Let the next guy deal with it."

On a side note, individuals won't see much of anything from this in the first place, not even the super poor. It's primarily goin' to organizations that benefit a collective group of people, i.e. Habitat for Humanity, etc. Middle class people probably don't need the help to begin with, well at least the smart and non lazy. You don't become middle class sittin' on your ass waitin' for a handout, usually.

There was a story on the news tonight about a local FOOT soldier who has been over in Iraq is about to loose his home. His home was a $200k+ home. Now, I'm no soldier but I do know they don't make the kind of money to be sittin' down in a $200K home. It gets better, he pulled some equity out of his home in order to spend $12k to "spruce" up his backyard... He did this last yearish. The news seems to think we should pity this idiot and his wife's predicament and should not blame them one bit. Even they, soldier and wife, blame other sources. Part of this problem we keep havin' will be fixed when someone with enough balls steps into the presidential slot and steps up to the task of calling these people idiots and tells America to bask in what we've sewn, in short terms, go fuck yourselves.

 

[Aaleel]

It wasn't just subprime loans. It was greed all around.

Banks appraising houses for more then they were worth, people buying houses no money down, or only paying interest. Banks leveraging money in ratios that they had no business doing.

A lot of people had the idea to make a lot of money, but all of it was a house of cards predicated on the fact that home values would constantly keep going up, and when they didn't the whole house came crashing down.

Also you have the regulations being taken off that would have prevented Commercial banks, Investment Banks and Insurance companies from merging. Some of these Wall Street banks that failed should have never been involved in mortgages to be brought down by Bad Debt in the first place, and they also did a poor job in projecting exposure and risk for all the things they were involved in, or just just ignored them because the money was so good.

 

[Valandil]

It wasn't just subprime loans. It was greed all around.

Banks appraising houses for more then they were worth, people buying houses no money down, or only paying interest. Banks leveraging money in ratios that they had no business doing.

A lot of people had the idea to make a lot of money, but all of it was a house of cards predicated on the fact that home values would constantly keep going up, and when they didn't the whole house came crashing down.

Also you have the regulations being taken off that would have prevented Commercial banks, Investment Banks and Insurance companies from merging. Some of these Wall Street banks that failed should have never been involved in mortgages to be brought down by Bad Debt in the first place, and they also did a poor job in projecting exposure and risk for all the things they were involved in, or just just ignored them because the money was so good.

Investment banks weren't involved in bad mortgages by direct lending. They got involved because lending banks would bundle their mortgages into securities packages that they then sold to investment banks. Once they sold the mortgage, the bad debt was gone. However, once the mortgages started defaulting, then the investment banks no longer had the capital to lend back into regular banks or to businesses.

 

[Strid]

Also you have the regulations being taken off that would have prevented Commercial banks, Investment Banks and Insurance companies from merging. Some of these Wall Street banks that failed should have never been involved in mortgages to be brought down by Bad Debt in the first place, and they also did a poor job in projecting exposure and risk for all the things they were involved in, or just just ignored them because the money was so good.

And this is not subprime lendings fault how? It is exactly what subprime lending made possible and banks didn't want anything to do with it. Also, no company wants to merge, when they do it is because one needs the other, not wants, NEEDS. Nobody wants to need someone else. Again, there is no positives in the economy when you start to see banks merging.

The bar for loans use to be {1---------/---10 } there. After Clinton's whole "no person without a house" crusade the bar was moved to about {1--/---------10} there. Mexican immigrants fresh off the farm with just a Green Card can now afford loans for $80-100K houses despite their wages only bein' around $30k, most likely tops, a year. It wasn't banks fault, they knew the impact it would have and obviously, since a lot of banks have tanked since then, the commission wasn't worth the loan, but had no choice.

So here is where we stand. Thank Clinton for startin' this mess, Bush for not revertin' it, and Obama for the next dabackle 10-12 years from now.

 

[Darkdante]

The stimulus plan is not about getting money to the middle class, it never was.

Even though they tell you that bull shit.

Ultimately some of the money will come to your benefit, though not directly. The people that will directly benefit from it, is government employees and contractors and Public Union employees. You ever notice how much more they make than the rest of you? On top of wages you need to add the benefits too.

And that is what the stimulus plan is all about. Your being taxed effectively about 40%-50% of your wages. If the economy keeps going the way it is, the President and elected officials face government layoffs. Which they do not want. Because ultimately this means less money and power for them, and more money back in your pockets when the surpluses hit or when a republican president is back in office.

The stimulus plan is a good solution to avoid government layoffs and protect government employees insane high wages and benefits paid for by the American taxpayer.

It is not a long term solution, simply a band-aid for the time being paid by the taxpayer so that the government employees can milk the system for everything that they can.

All of this high profile news being spread by government employees about how CEO's of private companies are taking too large of a share of monies in their companies is government employees own way of misdirecting the public of noticing that government employees are even worse than the CEO's they are pointing the finger at. They take money directly from the poor taxpayer and put it into a rich persons pocket.

Government wages are out of control and until you see large government layoffs and public employee union reform you wont' see the problem get fixed.

 

[Aaleel]

And this is not subprime lendings fault how? It is exactly what subprime lending made possible and banks didn't want anything to do with it. Also, no company wants to merge, when they do it is because one needs the other, not wants, NEEDS. Nobody wants to need someone else. Again, there is no positives in the economy when you start to see banks merging.

The bar for loans use to be {1---------/---10 } there. After Clinton's whole "no person without a house" crusade the bar was moved to about {1--/---------10} there. Mexican immigrants fresh off the farm with just a Green Card can now afford loans for $80-100K houses despite their wages only bein' around $30k, most likely tops, a year. It wasn't banks fault, they knew the impact it would have and obviously, since a lot of banks have tanked since then, the commission wasn't worth the loan, but had no choice.

So here is where we stand. Thank Clinton for startin' this mess, Bush for not revertin' it, and Obama for the next dabackle 10-12 years from now.

When did I say it wasn't sub-prime lending fault at all? I said it wasn't TOTALLY it's fault. To hear you tell it, these poor banks were only trying to survive, and they weren't sitting around counting money like everyone else. Yeah, the banks wanted no part of making money lol. Citibank was forced out of need to go out and use taxpayer money to buy another bank with their bailout money.

They were forced to leverage their money in ways they never should have, they were forced to appraise homes for more than they were worth. Yeah they had no choice but to behave in this manner, Please, just please.

Like I said in my other post, everyone was greedy, and everyone had a plan to make as much money as possible, which they did, but the whole plan was only good as long as housing prices kept going up, and when they stopped, everything came crashing down.

 

[Keryan]

epic

I would point out that the President makes 400,000 a year. The lowest paid senator makes 300k. The White house workers make 100,000. Not one of them have offered to take a pay cut.
As for the subprime loans~ Those loans were done on an adjustable rate. The people could afford the homes until the rates went up making their bill rise 200+ dollars. All the banks had to do even 1.5 years ago was reverse the adjustable rate loans. This whole thing was allowed to happen. Now after Obama the new savior of the world was elected the banks actually did this. Then just this week they put a freeze on foreclousers. They do forclousers when you are 3 months behind on your morgage. If they had done these things a few years ago we'd not have this problem.
FYI I Grew up in Hawaii~ where Obama grew up was the rich bitch Areas. So yeah he suffered so bad that his grandfather could afford fly him to see the astronoughts <sp> in the parade in NY. He suffered so bad he went to one of the top private schools. God I wish i had suffered like him. The middle class is infact at fault for all this because our whole economy is based on the middle class SPENDING. Middle class can not spend, so people lose jobs causing a long chain reaction of job loss.
Please call your congressmen and senators about this "Package" that they allowed to pass without even reading the damn thing. Over 1/3 of it is for Various senators pet projects. 50 million for frigging SAND RATS. how on earth is that going to stimulate the economy. In 10 years this Stimulus package will have cost the US 3 TRILLION dollars. SO Obama has managed in not even 1 month to create the same debt Bush took 8 years to do. From what I have seen of it, people who actually have jobs will be given more work. Make sure to thank China and England for the Stimulas money~ they loaned it to the US~ Then remember what happened with the last must have banking stimulas package they passed without reading.... oh yea they have no idea where 300 BILLION went from that. Obama's idea of multitasking~ pass now fix later.... For you dooms day people~ end of the world is supposed to be 2012~ right about the time of re-election..... :wink:

 

[Strid]

When did I say it wasn't sub-prime lending fault at all? I said it wasn't TOTALLY it's fault. To hear you tell it, these poor banks were only trying to survive, and they weren't sitting around counting money like everyone else. Yeah, the banks wanted no part of making money lol. Citibank was forced out of need to go out and use taxpayer money to buy another bank with their bailout money.

"Banks appraising houses for more then they were worth, people buying houses no money down, or only paying interest. Banks leveraging money in ratios that they had no business doing."

Everything you said there, banks HAD to do because of subprime loans. You make it sound like the banks wanted this, they did not. Sure, they're out to make a buck like everyone else but when the banks watch Mr. Gonzalez, a Sod layer, walk out of the bank with an $80k loan they aren't happy, they know what is coming and it's not a buck nor their money back. So then they had to turn to another way to keep afloat, a la leverages. Shitty way to make money, I agree, but really, what other options were there that hadn't been stripped away?

They were forced to leverage their money in ways they never should have, they were forced to appraise homes for more than they were worth. Yeah they had no choice but to behave in this manner, Please, just please.

You talk like you'd run your own business into the ground if your hands were tied behind your back. You gonna tell me you wouldn't do somethin' to save your own ass if someone tried to take it from you? I throw it back at you, with more feeling, "PLEASE, just PLEASE."

Like I said in my other post, everyone was greedy, and everyone had a plan to make as much money as possible, which they did, but the whole plan was only good as long as housing prices kept going up, and when they stopped, everything came crashing down.

I agree to this, however, I didn't say it wasn't an all around problem either, though you treat me like I did. Problems often start with a catalyst, whomever is responsible for the catalyst is ultimately responsible for everything that follows. Example; Clinton leaves lending as was, people who can't get loans on things they can't afford don't wreck our economy off their idiocy and greed, and banks don't have to resort to bad tactics to get the money back they just loaned to Best Buy Geek Squad employee( fresh out of high school) Dan Woods for his mansion. Simple stuff. Sure Dan had no business goin' for the loan in the first place but dammit, there should be somethin' there keepin' him from screwin' up the nation for the rest of us too.