morality of piracy (was: Final Fantasy III update)

[Marajade]

If you never plan on buying it you should never plan on DL it though.

No problem with buying the game, i'd do that instantly. The DS on the other hand, i wouldnt pay half of its price today for it. Compared to my PSP, thing's junk. but thats another topic.

I want to buy FFIII when it comes out. i'd gladly pay the 49$ or whatever it is for it. But, not gonna shell out the 199$ for a handheld console i dont want just to play the game i DO want. I'll just download it, and stick it on my PSP. Good game + good Handheld 4tw! If Nintendo sold the ROM of the game, i'd buy that.

 

[Kurgon]

I wonder if DS games will be downloadable to the revolution? Hmmmm.

 

[Tagrineth]

How is the DS junk compared to the PSP? Just because it has less hardware power and a few less features (ie no movies, no mp3 compatibility)?

In that case, do you think the Dreamcast is junk too, compared to PS2-GCN-XBX? Or how about the GCN, which, while just as powerful as the other two, isn't as feature-rich.. is that junk too?

edit: Never mind that the DS is outselling PSP by a large margin... source source Too bad the NPD hasn't released the US December sales figures yet. 5.25 million to 2.57 million... must be something to it, amirite?

 

[Tiael]

Note, Dreamcast is dead, and Sega's consoles died with it, amirite? So that has no relevance, since Nintendo(note, GCN(still alive! DC, not so much)) Sony and Microsoft are still releasing platforms to this date. As for DS outselling PSP, what can I say, people like gimmicks, which is why the Revolution will do well with it's gimmicky controller as well, but hey it is Nintendo after all, King of the Gimmicks! Also the DS>PSP due to the fact that the psp has almost no original titles at all, mainly ports. 2006 will see a lot more original titles though.

ed: Note, I have nothing against Nintendo, I love Zelda, but they are the Gimmick Masters.

 

[Tagrineth]

Note, Dreamcast is dead, and Sega's consoles died with it, amirite?

For the record, Dreamcast was killed by brand, and by Sega having a history of not-making-profits. See also: Sega-Sammy Holdings.

As for DS outselling PSP, what can I say, people like gimmicks, which is why the Revolution will do well with it's gimmicky controller as well, but hey it is Nintendo after all, King of the Gimmicks! Also the DS>PSP due to the fact that the psp has almost no original titles at all, mainly ports. 2006 will see a lot more original titles though.

ed: Note, I have nothing against Nintendo, I love Zelda, but they are the Gimmick Masters.

I always feel like the word 'Gimmick' has such a negative undertone. I agree that Nintendo are the Gimmick Masters - but in this case, they're doing something very, very right with the DS so far. The touch screen > *

 

[Tiael]

More like the games that are using the touchscreen right.

 

[chpal]

no matter how powerful the PSP is compred to the DS, the PSP has *zero* games I want to play. That along destroys it. no good RPGs for the PSP.

GBA I believe still has a lot of life left. with the new FFs remakes coming and FFIV, I think the GBA will still be the most popular handheld for a while. Plus it has all those games in its library already.

 

[Rones]

If you never plan on buying it you should never plan on DL it though. If it's good enough for you to Download it's good enough for you to Buy. You should save your money wait and buy it when you make the money. And don't make it with a printing press. And just because you don't have the money after you buy other things means nothing. because you will make more money at some point or another, and with everything you just Downloaded you will feel you don't need to buy. and you will go about buying other things.

I used to Pirate things, I stopped, I don't DL anything that is sold. And if I have downloaded something and it gets licensed and sold I will buy it that way. (Did this with Charmed B4 it was sold on DVD). Just my 2 cents

You missed my point in entirely. Lets say you have $100 to spend a month on games. That's it, you can't get anymore for the rest of the month. You spend that every month, game developers are making maximum profits off you. Now let's say in addition to buying those games you download the games you can't afford. Did the game developers lose money? No, because you weren't buying anymore either. Did you physically take anything from the developer that hinders their ability to sell to others? Not unless you robbed Best Buy.

It is a Utilitarian argument. Game developer has its maximum happiness because they can't get anymore money out of you. The player on the otherhand can get additional happiness by downloading the games he would otherwise be inable to play. This results in a greater amount of happiness with no loss in happiness for the developer.

Now let's consider someone who pirates all their games and buys none. Because they have so many games and extra money they will spend it on more hardware since that can't be pirated. This practice could lead to an interesting economic change where hardware producers partner up with software developers. Hardware producers could developer software (games) and give them out for free to motivate you to buy and use their hardware. Also, by cutting the profits of game development I forsee a more open source approach and cheaper game development budgets which require writers to be more origonal and efficient in their game design. Game budgets have become so bloated that they can get by with just throwing loads of money into developing extremely detailed unorigonal games.

Now for me personally, I pirate my fair share of games. However, I repay the companies by investing a great deal of money into their stocks, more than I would have spent on just the games. EA has proven to be a wise investment. In my utilitarian logic that results in a greater happiness for me (I get more games and I get stock) and a greater happiness for the companies (they get more money from me in the form of stock investments). Digital products force a different line of logic from what we see as black and white theft in the physical world.

 

[Tagrineth]

You missed my point in entirely. Lets say you have $100 to spend a month on games. That's it, you can't get anymore for the rest of the month. You spend that every month, game developers are making maximum profits off you. Now let's say in addition to buying those games you download the games you can't afford. Did the game developers lose money? No, because you weren't buying anymore either. Did you physically take anything from the developer that hinders their ability to sell to others? Not unless you robbed Best Buy.

It is a Utilitarian argument. Game developer has its maximum happiness because they can't get anymore money out of you. The player on the otherhand can get additional happiness by downloading the games he would otherwise be inable to play. This results in a greater amount of happiness with no loss in happiness for the developer.

You're still playing the game without having paid for it. Basically, you're getting the additional happiness that you would normally have to pay the company for, without paying them. You're still getting something for free that you should have paid money for.

Now let's consider someone who pirates all their games and buys none. Because they have so many games and extra money they will spend it on more hardware since that can't be pirated. This practice could lead to an interesting economic change where hardware producers partner up with software developers. Hardware producers could developer software (games) and give them out for free to motivate you to buy and use their hardware. Also, by cutting the profits of game development I forsee a more open source approach and cheaper game development budgets which require writers to be more origonal and efficient in their game design. Game budgets have become so bloated that they can get by with just throwing loads of money into developing extremely detailed unorigonal games.

News flash: Console developers normally lose money on hardware sales until very late in a console's life span. There are VERY few exceptions to this (GameCube being a notable one, though ironically, it wasn't possible to pirate GCN games and play them on real hardware until pretty recently).

Open source = free software = no matter how good the game is, nobody's paying a damn cent for it = no company will want to put forth the costs of game design. By the way, the highest costs in game design are NOT on the coding end, they are on the art end.

Now for me personally, I pirate my fair share of games. However, I repay the companies by investing a great deal of money into their stocks, more than I would have spent on just the games. EA has proven to be a wise investment. In my utilitarian logic that results in a greater happiness for me (I get more games and I get stock) and a greater happiness for the companies (they get more money from me in the form of stock investments). Digital products force a different line of logic from what we see as black and white theft in the physical world.

But do you invest in ALL the companies that you pirate games from?

 

[Rones]

You're still playing the game without having paid for it. Basically, you're getting the additional happiness that you would normally have to pay the company for, without paying them. You're still getting something for free that you should have paid money for.

You missed it too. You are getting the additional happiness at no loss to the company because they couldn't get any more money from you anyway. Imagine you have a bike. Your friend can't afford a bike but it would make him happy. Now you have the ability to physically clone your bike and give it to him for free. You still have your bike and are happy, the bike maker didn't lose any bikes or sales (because your friend couldn't buy one anyway), and your friend is now happier because he has a bike. That is how digital pirating works unlike physical pirating; friend steals your bike leaving you unhappy and friend happy.

News flash: Console developers normally lose money on hardware sales until very late in a console's life span. There are VERY few exceptions to this (GameCube being a notable one, though ironically, it wasn't possible to pirate GCN games and play them on real hardware until pretty recently).

I wasn't refering to console piracy when I was discussing hardware. If you were an advid computer gamer you would know the hardcore gamers (same ones who are most likely to pirate), upgrade or build a new computer every 6-12 months. Computer hardware developers are definitly not producing at any kind of loss.

Open source = free software = no matter how good the game is, nobody's paying a damn cent for it = no company will want to put forth the costs of game design. By the way, the highest costs in game design are NOT on the coding end, they are on the art end.

No company is partially correct. However, look at what valve and Ati did with half life 2. HL2 was shipped free with many of ATI's new video cards. This is the kind of merge I'm imagining that is possible in the future.

Additionally you are partially right it is the extreme art and 3d modeling that results in such high costs. Cut that away and game developers will be forced to put more empahsis on origionality rather than just good graphics (I've seen more than my share of pretty, but dull FPS lately). Have you checked out the quality of some of the free half life 2 mods that are floating around? Many of them outperform retail games and are done by a tiny team without the cost of high end games.

But do you invest in ALL the companies that you pirate games from?

No, but I never said it was a 1 to 1 investment ratio. I'll take $1,000 and put it into a couple of my favorite game companies despite the fact that I might have pirated from 5-6 different companies. The net result is more money going into the gaming industry than I take out through piracy.

 

[Marajade]

no matter how powerful the PSP is compred to the DS, the PSP has *zero* games I want to play. That along destroys it. no good RPGs for the PSP.

yeah, i'm a tad dissapointed with the game lineup, tho some notables so far (MGS Acid 4tw!) But for RPGs, Ghost In the Shell is coming out soon, and the new Valkiry Profile is also coming out.

sp has almost no original titles at all, mainly ports.

as compared to all the good GBA/DS games? FFVI remake... FFIII remake... Mario 64 remake... more FF remake.... another verson of metroid....

and all the ports so far have been the games that always see multi-console release; Midnight Club, Need For Speed, Dynasty Warriors, ect.

Also, for the DS outselling the PSP, i point to christmas, and parents getting them for thier kids. The PSP's price put it out of that range for many christmas gifts. Also, those numbers are alot closer now then they were right after christmas.

 

[Halifirien]

Rones, you can gloss it over all you want, but software piracy is still pretty much illegal, which is why it's called piracy. You're taking something that does not belong to you. You're stealing someone's intellectual property.

Saying "I downloaded games I couldn't afford anyway so they're not losing money" is horse shit. If you have $100 to spend on games each month, you buy the ones you want this month and then wait until next month to use the next $100 to buy the others.

I'm just as guilty of piracy as the next guy, but please don't insult our intelligence by trying to justify it with some phony arguments about maximized happiness. Just say "I'm breaking the law because I'm a cheap bastard" like the rest of us and be done with it.

 

[Tagrineth]

yeah, i'm a tad dissapointed with the game lineup, tho some notables so far (MGS Acid 4tw!) But for RPGs, Ghost In the Shell is coming out soon, and the new Valkiry Profile is also coming out.

as compared to all the good GBA/DS games? FFVI remake... FFIII remake... Mario 64 remake... more FF remake.... another verson of metroid....[/quote]

DS is getting Xenosaga and Seiken Densetsu, among other things.. 'another version of metroid' is an ignorant statement - there aren't that many Metroids to begin with and the only metroid remake went way above and beyond the normal remake style (Zero Mission, anyone).

Ghost in the shell? Most anime based games are lackluster at best.

And then, on the DS, you have stuff like Trauma Center: Under the Knife that just owns and is more or less entirely unique.

and all the ports so far have been the games that always see multi-console release; Midnight Club, Need For Speed, Dynasty Warriors, ect.

Speaking of the remake festival... why would I want any of these on PSP when I can play them on my PS2?

Also, for the DS outselling the PSP, i point to christmas, and parents getting them for thier kids. The PSP's price put it out of that range for many christmas gifts. Also, those numbers are alot closer now then they were right after christmas.

No they aren't, the 5.2mil vs 2.5mil is from the most recent known sales figures, including Japan's December sales. Wait till the US December sales are known.

Not only that, but the DS has always outsold the PSP from day one, not just during holiday seasons.

You still have yet to back up the idea that DS is 'junk', anyway...

 

[Myrrh]

Well the DS isn't junk. There are good games for the DS aswell as the PSP. Personally i don't like all the remakes on games. Like Mario 64, it really didn't need wario and them but it was fun to unlock them and get all 150 stars(which i did btw its not hard).

There will ALWAYS be fan boys/girls for every system and they will always think that their system is better in everyway. Thats why i make it so i play/own every system.(tho i think i have never played the dreamcast ).

EDIT: i own a DS and a PSP and i have more games for the DS because they are longer then PSP games and the PSP doesn't really have that many games. I mostly use my PSP as an MP3 and a DVD player(i ever have cool speakers for it lol)

One game i want them to remake is teenage mutant ninja turtles (the one for Nintendo) lol

 

[Halifirien]

I own both systems, and it's working out that I have the DS for games and the PSP for movies. Spending long hours fishing in Gusgen Mines is easier when you have Sin City or Predator or King Kong to watch.

It's a reversal, because my DS was a paperweight for months after I bought it.

 

[Rones]

Rones, you can gloss it over all you want, but software piracy is still pretty much illegal, which is why it's called piracy. You're taking something that does not belong to you. You're stealing someone's intellectual property.

Saying "I downloaded games I couldn't afford anyway so they're not losing money" is horse shit. If you have $100 to spend on games each month, you buy the ones you want this month and then wait until next month to use the next $100 to buy the others.

I'm just as guilty of piracy as the next guy, but please don't insult our intelligence by trying to justify it with some phony arguments about maximized happiness. Just say "I'm breaking the law because I'm a cheap bastard" like the rest of us and be done with it.

I never said or implied piracy was not illegeal. What I attempted to discuss was the morality which resides outside law (laws do not make an act moral or immoral). If discussing the morality of an act is "horse shit" then I'm as guilty as Socrates since apparently laws decide moralality and what is law is all that matters. :roll: The philosophy of maximum happiness you so casually dismiss is utilitarinism and worth much more consideration than you gave it.

I see you too missed my point too. You say wait until next month when you have $100 to buy the others, well there will be new games to spend it on by then or some past game at least. It's not as if you spend $100 this month and pirate the rest of the games you want will result in you not spending another $100 next month. You can pirate and still put the most you can afford into buying the games.

If you really want to get technical piracy just puts the control of the money in the user to let them decide what to do with it (based on their morals). Some gamers could for instance take the money they would use to buy games and instead giving them to charitable foundations in a robin hood fashion. People of lower morals could just pocket the money saved, depends on the person (although I would argue keeping the money is also a form of push towards a revolution into open source programming). I feel I'm walking neutral ground or good ground by turning around and investing money in the companies I pirate from. Just imagine what would happen if the millions of people who liked the Sims did like me and bought loads of EA stock. :wink:

You're taking something that does not belong to you. You're stealing someone's intellectual property.

Don't be too quick on that assumption. Did you physically remove the game from the companies ownership? Not likely. So now you are claiming to have stolen an idea. Well its not even an 'idea' after they have created it, but in this case it also doesn't become a physical product. Don't automatically assume intellectual property right laws are correct.

We are talking about a product that can be reproduced an infinite number of times practically for free. Humankind has gone millenia and never encountered this concept. So trying to apply millenia old concepts of the morality of theft of physical property to this does not work. Software should be open source. Look at the wonders that have come from Java and Linux thanks to open source development. Whether they intend to or not, piracy is igniting a revolution towards open source software.

 

[Tiael]

Hmm, sure PSP is getting some ports that I will be getting when they release, rpgs too, Breath of Fire III, Suikoden I/II, Valkyrie Profile, but also some original titles I want to get too, but the rpg crowd is still 1 of the lowest common denominators of gaming, it's just the fact that the DS has unique original games, while psp is all mainly ports of ps2 games, that's it. I want Nintendo to hurry the hell up and release a Zelda that takes advantage of the DS touchscreen, but that probably won't be til after Twilight Princess. Eventually I'll get a DS, but not for FFIII, I've played the import on famicom, and that game was a classic, I don't want to see how slaughtered it is in 3D. If I get a DS, it'll be for Children of Mana DS, and a new Zelda, that's about it. The PSP is still good, they just need more original unique titles, oh hey Liberty City Stories, let's port it to PS2! Why the hell did you fukin release it for PSP!? And yes Rockstar is planning on it, instead of ps2 to psp, it's psp to ps2 /sigh. But in '06 I think the PSP will get stronger, and more unique titles will release for it, but atm, the DS is better, but it is Nintendo, and they have some screwy games, but they are unique, I mean come on, it's Shigeru Miyamoto! After all look how well Katamari Damacy did on ps2, people want the unique games, so come on Sony, get your heads out of your asses!

 

[Rones]

Interesting little side issue. Host your own server for a game, but insert ads to off set the server cost. Current laws seems to be against that, but are the laws correct?

 

[Georgebobbilly]

fixed parts in bold

You missed my point in entirely. Lets say you have $100 to spend a month on games. That's it, you can't get anymore for the rest of the month. You spend that every month, game developers are making maximum profits off you. Now let's say in addition to buying those games you download the games you can't afford. Did the game developers lose money? No, because you weren't buying anymore either. Did you physically take anything from the developer that hinders their ability to sell to others? Not unless you robbed Best Buy.

It is a illegal argument. Game developer has its maximum happiness because they can't get anymore money out of you. The player on the otherhand can get additional happiness by downloading the games he would otherwise be inable to play. This results in a greater amount of happiness with no loss in happiness for the developer.

Now let's consider someone who pirates all their games and buys none. Because they have so many games and extra money they will spend it on more hardware since that can't be pirated. This practice could lead to an interesting economic change where hardware producers partner up with software developers. Hardware producers could developer software (games) and give them out for free to motivate you to buy and use their hardware. Also, by cutting the profits of game development I forsee a more open source approach and cheaper game development budgets which require writers to be more origonal and efficient in their game design. Game budgets have become so bloated that they can get by with just throwing loads of money into developing extremely detailed unorigonal games.

Now for me personally, I pirate my fair share of games. However, I repay the companies by investing a great deal of money into their stocks, more than I would have spent on just the games. EA has proven to be a wise investment. In my illegal should be sent to jail logic that results in a greater happiness for me (I get more games and I get stock) and a greater happiness for the companies (they get more money from me in the form of stock investments). Digital products force a different line of logic from what we see as black and white theft in the physical world.

No your still not getting it. you are stealing, you are breaking the law, morality be damned you are disobeying the law. Some peoples morals say they should be able to slaughter entire races on principle alone, I personaly thank god that the law stops those morals.

You think just because you only get 100 to spend on games every month your entitled to more? Get a real job and make more money to spend. you are still stealing from the developers your stealing from there future profits since you no longer need to buy that game.

And don't even for a second think that investing money in a company is even a valid argument, your still making money off of them while stealing from them.

 

[Rones]

No your still not getting it. you are stealing, you are breaking the law, morality be damned you are disobeying the law. Some peoples morals say they should be able to slaughter entire races on principle alone, I personaly thank god that the law stops those morals.

First, I know it is illegeal. Did you miss the first line in my second to last post? As for your corrections, I suggest you google utilitarinism before continuning to show how ignorant you are on the subject of philosophy.

Second, do you know how laws are created? Here's a hint, they are based off the morals of people in charge. Please do not be so quick to dismiss a discussion of morality by claiming some people see the slaughter of innocent people as moral. That is why we have philosophies to develop and add logic to our morals, in this case I am using utilitarianism philosophy to support morals that disagree with what we currently have as law. I feel like I'm talking to a broken record, everyone keeps bringing up the same exact same things and not actually discussing it.

You think just because you only get 100 to spend on games every month your entitled to more? Get a real job and make more money to spend. you are still stealing from the developers your stealing from there future profits since you no longer need to buy that game.

I have responded to this three times now. I would suggest you reread my previous posts because you clearly didn't the first time you skimmed them.

First, I never said anything about being 'entitled'. I said it is a way to create additional happiness in the world with no loss of happiness or creation of unhappiness (which makes it moral according to utilitarnism). If you want to disagree with that, please explain where you disagree.
Second, you say it is stealing. It is illegeal, but as I explained near the end of my previous post, the concept of theft we have held for millenia does not transfer well from tangible objects to digital material.
Third, you claim it is stealing profits from the developer but I disagree and your demand to earn more money is a mute point. This is because there will always be more games out there than you can buy unless you are very wealthy or make large financial sacrifices (eg: sell your home and car). Thus, you can still spend all the money you can afford on games and pirate the others without causing the developer to earn any less money.

And don't even for a second think that investing money in a company is even a valid argument, your still making money off of them while stealing from them.

What does a valid argument have to do with an action? Did you mean to question the morality of the act? Oh wait, you don't believe in morales. :wink: Anyway, you forget that the company is also making money off me investing in their stocks. What's it called when two groups benefit each other? Oh yeah, symbiotic relationship. The developers make more money off me investing in their stocks than they would get from me buying their software because I'm putting a larger amount of money into the stocks than I would pay for the game (which in turn earns me more money that I can invest in the companies).

George, if you want to continue this please at least read through my posts. Second, it is a weak argument that simply dismisses everything the opposition says while not supplying any support for their own logic. Elaborate on your position, reasoning, morality, and philisophical reasoning behind your logic.