Multiple End-Game Linkshells?

Sandria said:
Ack, replying too slow! Actually there are shells that stronly push "LS Onry". Members are not allowed to do events with other end-game shells-- and bringing someone outside of the shell to the event (who might need the item or simply want to participate) is strongely looked down upon for fear of slowing the "team" down. As for making things public.. a lot've events that were once "LS onry" are now going public... and that brings me to this thread. Why not remove all barriers? The only time this seems to be a major conflict is in smaller NMs that money drops are clearly an issue. Things such as Wyrms and other kings could be clearly accomplished better and smoother with linkshells forming alliances with one another.

Hope that clears that part up. x.x
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I've never heard of an LS implementing a policy like that, but now I can see where you're coming from. As for people just wanting to help, I can see them doing that, but it's much harder to believe if they are actually members of the linkshell they are helping. When they are an actual member and recieve rewards from that linkshell, it looks more like they are just wanting their share of the kill, not just assisting a friend. Also, most(read all, but there might be one) linkshells won't help because if they can't handle the hnm then they will wipe and your linkshell can claim and kill. HNM's are all about competition between shells, and while friendly competition makes it fun, that pretty much stops at doing the other linkshells job for them.

I agree leaks do happen, mostly due to people searching the camps; but that's different from another group finding the ToD and someone specifically giving that other linkshell the ToD. Specifically telling another linkshell is betraying your current shell and your friends.
 
xKronox said:
Basicly, this game is actually designed to be competive, so we must get over, and become the best to acheive our goals. Besides shit would be too boring without competion. Though there needs to be some minor adjustments. No one likeds 200ppl at KB or Ulli, I know that. :P
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HUH???? There is absolutly no competion at all in this game. Only what you imagine to be. If it was designed to be a competitive game there would be alot more along the lines of PvP and nation against nation event's.
 
Shaunessy said:
HUH???? There is absolutly no competion at all in this game. Only what you imagine to be. If it was designed to be a competitive game there would be alot more along the lines of PvP and nation against nation event's.
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Of course you're right, barring the fact that you can't attack a monster you have claim on, some monsters have really hit respawn times, item drop rates are rare, yeah no competition at all. There's competition in every multiplayer game, just because there's no ganking doesn't mean there's no competition.
 
Shaunessy said:
That's not competition. That's silly little bull shit. This is a cooperative game if I've ever seen one.
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No, that's competition for claims, competition for drops, just because it's not a direct fight between two people for it, doesn't mean there's no competition at all. Yes, there's cooperation, but it's primarily out of necessity, you can't solo mostl of the big items, so you obviously need to cooperate with others. You're looking at an individual level of competition, while I'm talking about group competition. Pick any team sport, the team cooperates together to compete with other teams, same thing here.

There is even competition on an individual level within the team who got the claim or got the drop(for sky, sea, dynamis, etc). The members want the item, and compete for it in some way, casting lots, using earned points, or whatever system they employ. This game is rife with competition, but people work together to help each other out, primarily through their teams/linkshells.

If the game came down to a pvp fight for everything I would never play, I couldn't care less about pvp, but thinking there's only one way to compete is ignorant.
 
Chances are you XXX only shell is looking to expanding out. Most shells start in sky and move on towards other ventures, unless people keep bailing out and they have to keep recruiting members.
 
It's a matter of people don't like seeing others they helped to get their equipment, joining up with someone else to take down the same target they're after, then coming back like nothings wrong with it.
 
Bajaratt said:
No, that's competition for claims, competition for drops, just because it's not a direct fight between two people for it, doesn't mean there's no competition at all. Yes, there's cooperation, but it's primarily out of necessity, you can't solo mostl of the big items, so you obviously need to cooperate with others. You're looking at an individual level of competition, while I'm talking about group competition. Pick any team sport, the team cooperates together to compete with other teams, same thing here.

There is even competition on an individual level within the team who got the claim or got the drop(for sky, sea, dynamis, etc). The members want the item, and compete for it in some way, casting lots, using earned points, or whatever system they employ. This game is rife with competition, but people work together to help each other out, primarily through their teams/linkshells.

If the game came down to a pvp fight for everything I would never play, I couldn't care less about pvp, but thinking there's only one way to compete is ignorant.
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If you want to look at that as competion that's fine. I don't consider sitting somewhere spamming macros a skilled sport though.
 
Sandria said:
- It's minor things like events. You have X amount of people who actually want to do something like Rostrum Pumps (just tossing out an example, however you can honestly imput any type of activity like it)- but you also need Y who has no interest in doing it. Through leadership or other means Y is thus forced to attend such event regardless if they'd rather be doing something entirely different with their game time. In some cases the event does not take place at all. And, sometimes it's not even about interests, but let's just say your Y factor is not online. Now, lets just say that your Y could be found within another end-game shell... wouldn't the event thus be better if both X and Y wanted to do the event? Hopefully that made sense.
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The problem with this though is that 20 WHMs can't kill the antlion any more than 30 BRDs can kill Vrtra, or 20 PLDs can take Nidhogg.

The reason we have HNM Shells is because the big stuff in this game takes a lot of well trained, well equipped players to defeat. It usually also means having a balanced alliance online. Now as noone can be on 24/7 and if only a few of your players are in shell at any time then your shell needs to recruit (and train/equip) a lot more players than a shell who has most of their members available.

A LOT of our HNM Shells have been in sky for a long time. And they'll be there for a long time yet, because they seem need to very large numbers of equipped players, due to players getting what they want and leaving, or simply not being available very much.

I (as a RDM) don't get anything out of a CoP Wyrm fight, a Pumps run, an O-Hat run etc etc. But I'll be there for my Shell mates even if it's a event I don't particularly enjoy, because I know that it strengthens our shell (enabling us to handle bigger stuff), and because I know that they'll be there for me when I need them.
 
Sandria said:
Ack, replying too slow! Actually there are shells that stronly push "LS Onry". Members are not allowed to do events with other end-game shells-- and bringing someone outside of the shell to the event (who might need the item or simply want to participate) is strongely looked down upon for fear of slowing the "team" down. As for making things public.. a lot've events that were once "LS onry" are now going public... and that brings me to this thread. Why not remove all barriers? The only time this seems to be a major conflict is in smaller NMs that money drops are clearly an issue. Things such as Wyrms and other kings could be clearly accomplished better and smoother with linkshells forming alliances with one another.

Hope that clears that part up. x.x
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The thing is end game LS do things for the LS and not for others. In some cases it is acceptable to invite outside members, but for the most part it is taboo. The reason is they do not see helping out a non-member and will probably never return the favor. If you wanted to make an event whether it be a mission or pop NM like the rostrum pumps, most shells would accept it as a public event, but don't expect any of them to offer aid. Some might come at a chance for pumps, others just to help friends, but I can guarantee you the amount of players coming from your end game shell to a public event will be a lot less than the amount coming to a LS event. When you join an end game shell, you basically make a contract to help the shell and in turn help yourself, but someone outside does not have that obligation to anyone nor does any member of the shell have an obligation to that person.

Would you ask your LS to make events for the public which have no reward for them? That's how they see inviting someone into the shell event. This person hasn't worked for it at all. If they really wanted the item whether it be a rostrum pump or an optical hat, the best way is to join an end game LS of their own and work for it because trying to leech won't cut it. And leeching is what it is. You will not get anything for free in this game. You could try to make your own public event, but as some people on QCDN can attest to, the calibur of random players isn't exactly quality. See how many times a public Hakutaku run wipes compared to an experienced shell who kills the thing in half the time and never fails.
 
Sandria said:
- - Loyalty issues. This will sound bold, however, should a player remain loyal to a shell if they are no longer enjoying their playing experience? I.e. The shell is progressing slower than their interests and they are getting bored? After all, it is a game and a game should be about having fun. I'd suspect that in issues of CC there would possibly be better diplomacy because there is always going to be a distinct difference between competing with a friend and competing with an ls member. And in friendly competition, at the end of the fight it is simply "Grats man".. rather than "omg that ***** got (insert mob name)". Eh, I'm a tree-hugger.. so that might bring me to this reasoning.
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...and actually I missed this paragraph the first time through. Not being American, I often feel that we have different definitions of loyalty. I've received more from my Shell than I could ever pay back in time. A single Kirin will take about between 300-500 man hours to kill. One of the items I received, I estimate at about 5000 man hours. Now that I don't need that item anymore is it "loyal" for me to do something else while my friends camp that mob hoping for another drop?

And the reason that most shells are progressing slowly is that they invest several thousand manhours into a player, only for that player to decide that he'd have more fun (ie in most cases, get more gear) elsewhere and they have to start all over again with a new recruit. And I just don't see where the loyalty is in that...
 
Bajaratt said:
I have to disagree with most of this. First off, there have been several instances of linkshells teaming up to do things, so saying it never happens is wrong.

Second, the issue for the most part isn't the leaders, it's the individual members of the linkshell. There are plenty of people who have jumped from linkshell to linkshell, only staying long enough to get an item or two and then jumping ship to get more items. Saying you can only camp hnm's with one linkshell is trying to instill some form of loyalty to your linkshell. If you had multiple linkshells, you could leak out the ToD's which would mean less items for the linkshell that was actually putting effort into camping the hnm. You're basically screwing your "friends" out of gear/gil they have worked for, which isn't right.

Then as has been mentioned before, what if both of your linkshells camp the same hnm, who will you camp with? Camping with one linkshell, then immediately joining the other if they claim shows nothing but greed on your part, not the linkshell's.

None of that is saying that you can't have friends in other endgame shells, or that you can't get along or work together with other endgame shells. They're just saying that your loyalties should lie with your endgame shell, not whoever has the best chance of giving you money at the moment; otherwise you're nothing but a whore, who are generally looked down upon.
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First of all you don't have to call me a whore, since that is very immature and doesnt prove any point at all except that you can't base your opinion on facts rather than irrational emotions. Second of all yes it is true that the players are responsible themselves in a way because many people do give away tods to other LSes if they are in more than one. The question is why do they do it? Simple enough, they belive that it will help themselves get whatever item they need quicker and does not realize that it only prevents them further and there we are again. Well the thing is if two LSes are allies then they cannot give away any ToD my friend. Because the LSes share ToDs with eachother. If there is no secret then there is nothing to hide.

Lets say for once that both the LSes had an agreement about an NM concerning the tod as well as lots. Make a list of what people needs items from it (from both LSes) and have them attend to the event. If more people are needed there is a much bigger pool to choose from since you can pick from 2 LSes. If there are more people who want to be at the event then there are room for then make one LS have it as a scheduled event to keep kill the NM and players from both LSes are welcome to join whenever they wish, thats called co-operation.

In a perfect world you would simply sign up on a list for the items you want and/or if you want to go with someone and be compared to other who need the same item and from that be given a date when/where you can get the item and who would like to do the same thing with you and after you kill the NM you report the ToD to just a few people controling all the ToDs so they can give it to the next person.

However this will never be because 1st it would require everyone on the server to be a part of it and it would require japanese and english speaking players to work together like a team and we know how easy that is with the language barrier. It would also require a small group of people who constantly keep track on the ToDs and for those people to not become greedy so I think that instead of having the entire server co-operate we could focus down to a smaller group which would be in this case the main GoD/HNM LSes. If we all allied up we would have total control of the HNMs during NA prime time while no one will bitch about having more than 1 LSpearl so you can have a convo with your other friends.

Some minor issues would ofcourse be who would be the main leader and what happends with the people who cannot get along with eachother. Well I say swallow your pride for the greater good, there can be more than one leader and there are many people who dislike eachother but still have to work together in Dynamis LSes and it works just fine so thats how you solve that problem.
 
Is there something wrong?
I'm sorry in that case but I red the rest like 10 times and I couldent figure out what you ment exactly. I'm not very good in english but I do my best to understand and be understood.
Now can we stay on topic please because I've been striving for LSes to ally up for a long time and here I feel that I can really tell people how I feel about it and listen to everyone elses thoughts and ideas.
 
What I meant was, a LS helps someone get their equipment. The time comes where you're camping HNM#R66-Y(lolreference,) said person that got help is now camping it with another HNM shell, then comes back to the original helping shell like nothing happened.

Thats why theres usually a one shell rule.
 
Thank you for making that clear, helped alot!
And now for my answer ^^


True but then maybe the other shell have someone else who need to fight that NM who can come help instead and the result would lead to more people getting more items they want even quicker. There is just problems if you make it a problem :) Maybe the one person who got his item and then went to the other shell had to kill HNM#R66-Y 10 times to get that item. Then he has still done his share in helping. Thats no difference then getting the item on his first try and then stay for 9 more runs just to help. See where i'm going?
 
I never called you a whore Slizze, all I said was people who disband to get a cut of the gil from another LS appear to be whores, because they'll do anything for the gil.

You basically covered why it will never work out. There are too many people to try to come to one, single agreement as to how to do endgame. The Japanese LS's were able to do it so long ago because they camped without any competition, but now there's probably around 1,000 people in endgame, so a perfect agreement is impossible. Then you have to factor in all of the people who would refuse to abide by that system and would counter-camp the NM's and would artificially push themselves up the line for gear. A massive LS alliance regarding endgame is a pipe dream, and anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about.

Yes, it'd be nice if there was a way to get gear for everyone without all of the drama of endgame, but at this point it's never going to happen. The game was designed with endgame as a huge timesink, and that most players wouldn't be able to get everything they wanted. Factor that in with individual greed and selfishness, and it should be obvious why it won't work.

Shell hoppers are frowned upon because they generally show no team spirit whatsoever, they usually don't put as much effort into the shell as the rewards they get out of the shell.

shaunessy said:
If you want to look at that as competion that's fine. I don't consider sitting somewhere spamming macros a skilled sport though.
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Webster's Dictionary said:
Main Entry: com·pe·ti·tion
Pronunciation: "käm-p&-'ti-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin competition-, competitio, from Latin competere
1 : the act or process of competing : RIVALRY: as a : the effort of two or more parties acting independently to secure the business of a third party by offering the most favorable terms b : active demand by two or more organisms or kinds of organisms for some environmental resource in short supply
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In this case the organisms are linkshells, the resource is gil. Based on that definition, there is competition in the game. Learn what words mean before you use them, ok?
 
SlizenDize said:
Thank you for making that clear, helped alot!
And now for my answer ^^


True but then maybe the other shell have someone else who need to fight that NM who can come help instead and the result would lead to more people getting more items they want even quicker. There is just problems if you make it a problem :) Maybe the one person who got his item and then went to the other shell had to kill HNM#R66-Y 10 times to get that item. Then he has still done his share in helping. Thats no difference then getting the item on his first try and then stay for 9 more runs just to help. See where i'm going?
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Very rarely do you find a linkshell that doesn't need any NM drops. Since most hnm drops are sold, and everyone always needs more gil, that doesn't really apply. You seem to be basing hnm's off of dynamis runs, where you can go jsut for the win and get no gear/items from the run. In that case, I have no problem with someone helping out and getting a win

But when it comes to something like gear or gil, the drop rates and the necessity warrants that the linkshell will always be in need of the drops. Over a long period of time, a linkshell could theoretically run out of people who need a rare/ex drop, but that's discluding any new members or members who level up new jobs. If the drop rate was 100% and the mob spawned often, then I could see the kind of cooperation you want(Joyeuse is a perfect example), but big things like say a Ridil or Kirin's Osode you wouldn't see traded around.
 
Ok Bajaratt sorry about that whore part, I red it as "Everyone who ever had 2 HNM LSes or similar at the same times are whores.". Geesh there are just some word combinations which are used in the English language which sounds very weird in my head.

For example when Skaw said "joining up with someone else to take down the same target they're after" I didn't understand anything at all because I basicly thought he ment that you join up with someone to help him kill the mob he wants killed and i'm like, whats wrong with that?

Anyway back to topic, yes ofcourse 1000 people alliance is a little to hardcore for everyday gamers, I mean. This is not the army after all ^^
I was just thinking about maybe the 3 or 4 main NA Sky/HNM LSes and I know that this is not done over a night. There are people in the world who strive for world peace and even though they know there will never be such thing they atleast hope that what they do/say can make a difference to make it atleast a little better. This is little like that, if we never give it a try we can never make it happend but if two LSes go together and show to other that it work then maybe more people are interesting in doing the same thing.

I wish I could stay and chat for longer because It's so interesting to hear your thoughts and ideas about this but it's really late and I need sleep. However from this topic i've learned today that it seems to me that some people play this game because they actually like the competition. I've never been a person who like to compete about things so it doesn't make any sens for me but if thats how it is then maybe i'm saying all this thing in vain even though I hope thats not the case but what do I know? I'm just a tarutaru after all :)

Gnite people!

EDIT: I see you made another reply before me and I really want to say my thoughts about it since it's so interesting but I really need the sleep so i'll save that for another time. Hope you don't mind.
 
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