new account - job/gear question

[Sculli]

I have a couple questions as to how you guys view things:

Case 1:
Someone who has previously played FFXI is starting on Quetzalcoatl, but of course doesn't know anyone (let's just assume this is true, even though it doesn't make all that much sense for someone to come here if they don't know anyone).

Considering that MNK is easy to level without a sub (as opposed to say WHM), would that person level a MNK first, regardless of what the actual job choice would be?

Case 2:
Someone who has never played before is starting to play FFXI on Quetzalcoatl.

Would that person level MNK first regardless of what the future job choice would be?

I know people level all kinds of jobs, and rightfully so, it's their game, whatever they want to do. I am just wondering whether someone would likely be convinced to give MNK a spin for a couple days, get to 10 or whatever, and then start levelling whatever they actually want to level once they came into some cash as well as raised their evasion and whatnot?

The reason I am asking is that I am looking for a noob gear package.
Something that would be useful to give people a little boost when they start playing. For MNK it's a set of bronze, a cesti, and a couple meats or something like that. Easy and cheap (the whole thing is like 4k or so), would probably be the same for WAR, except for the weapon.

I don't want to mess around with that too much, as in have a starter set for every job people could pick tough.

Anyway, what do you think?

 

[dedalius]

Monk is a popular start, but I think that having a different package for each job would work a little better.

It would even give the person a little bit of an idea what the more appropriate weapons are.

IE Bronze and a Great Axe for war, or Bronze and a Dagger for theif.

For mages a couple of pies or cookies.

 

[Grem]

What race?

 

[annabelle]

When first starting out, it's probably best to level something suited to the strength of their race, since they usually can't afford the high-priced gear that can overcome those barriers.

A taru can make a great mage, most notably a WHM. Being a WHM is more forgiving of not having a sub because you don't need the extra stat boosts to overcome a mob's Evasion or Defense. WHM is a highly popular job for invites (not everyone has a PL at their beck and call), and all they need is MP for cures and decent MND (and there's a truckload of low-level +MND gear available). I know of a taru who refused to level his BLM sub and went up to WHM30/BLM01 before he became a SMN, and while he faced some expected discrimination, he still pulled it off just fine. The only thing he was really missing was a little bit of Max MP (so naturally being a taru, the two even themselves out so he's balanced against other WHM races with fully leveled subs).

An elvaan or galka would do best to start with a melee job. Both WAR and MNK work decently, but in most cases I would recommend WAR. First, it throws them to learn how to work with parties when they're asked to Provoke as tanks, and this is where the good players will be taught and the bad players will be weeded out. Secondly, WAR will see much more use as the subjob of choice for other melee jobs.

A Hume or Mithra can probably go either route, and it should probably be based on whether they plan to play a melee or a mage in the distant future. If they're undecided, it's probably best to start with melee, since the soloing and early farming options are a little more forgivable.

That's just my take on things. Your mileage may vary.

 

[neophytal]

monk is fairly expensive by the time of level40, so you have to be prepared to camp or farm.

snipers, o.kote, brown belt, jujitsu gi, etc etc etc

 

[Tim Wakefield]

Id have to agree with anna and say that WAR would probably be the best starting job for almost anyone, unless they plan on being WHM, BLM, RDM, or SMN. WAR gets subbed to nearly anything melee in the earlier levels, so it is a very nice job to have leveled.

Also, its easy, and gives you a good understanding of hate control and how to deal damage in your first trip though the dunes and after. I started as WAR and it helped me greatly in my days as a PLD, making my job a wholllle lot easier. MNK is good and easy also, but without the appropriate gear in the 20's can become pretty mediocre. Obviously a decked out monk is going to be very strong, but for a person who is new and cant afford the right rings/weapon/belt and other pieces, its not going to be as effective.

 

[Lavi]

When first starting out, it's probably best to level something suited to the strength of their race, since they usually can't afford the high-priced gear that can overcome those barriers.

A taru can make a great mage, most notably a WHM. Being a WHM is more forgiving of not having a sub because you don't need the extra stat boosts to overcome a mob's Evasion or Defense. WHM is a highly popular job for invites (not everyone has a PL at their beck and call), and all they need is MP for cures and decent MND (and there's a truckload of low-level +MND gear available). I know of a taru who refused to level his BLM sub and went up to WHM30/BLM01 before he became a SMN, and while he faced some expected discrimination, he still pulled it off just fine. The only thing he was really missing was a little bit of Max MP (so naturally being a taru, the two even themselves out so he's balanced against other WHM races with fully leveled subs).

An elvaan or galka would do best to start with a melee job. Both WAR and MNK work decently, but in most cases I would recommend WAR. First, it throws them to learn how to work with parties when they're asked to Provoke as tanks, and this is where the good players will be taught and the bad players will be weeded out. Secondly, WAR will see much more use as the subjob of choice for other melee jobs.

A Hume or Mithra can probably go either route, and it should probably be based on whether they plan to play a melee or a mage in the distant future. If they're undecided, it's probably best to start with melee, since the soloing and early farming options are a little more forgivable.

That's just my take on things. Your mileage may vary.

Completely wrong. Never ever level warrior or white mage first. Warrior and white mage are integral members of a party and can make or break whether a party is successful in the dunes. First off, let me start off by saying it is inexcusable to level while your subjob is underleveled. A level or two max maybe if you got a very good party and leveled before you got the chance to party on your sub, but if you purposely gimp your subjob, one can only expect you to be a total noob and rightfully so, you probably are. The added stats especially at low level are absolutely amazing and to outright ignore them, it's rediculous. Don't start by comparing yourself to a race who may have lower stats because in the end, you are still far weaker than a player of the same race, job and fully leveled sub.

Secondly, a warrior is and will always be a tank in the dunes. You will never escape without being obligated to tank and the subjob will help you immensely both in keeping hate and staying alive. A WAR/MNK will have more HP, STR and VIT to take more hits for less damage and deal more damage to help keep. Plus with the monk subjob, you will be able to use boost as a mini-voke to keep hate from other players. My suggestion is to level monk first. Monk at early levels is basically just an ordinary DD and does nothing, but the occasional WS and boost. Nothing exceptionally hard and you will be able to get a grasp of other jobs and their roles while you play your limited role. This isn't to downplay the monk job, but at that level all melee jobs lack job abilities and if you are not tanking, then you are pretty much just auto attacking.

Same thing with white mage. Always level the subjob for white mage first. White mage has the key role of healing, keeping players alive and the more experience you have partying, the easier it will be for you to do this. In the dunes, the limiting factor in maximizing chains has always been the lack of MP from the WHM in my experience. A WHM with more MP will be able to sustain higher chains and keep the experience moving. A white mage will get a small boost in MP and MND from a fully leveled, but at that level every bit helps. A BLM however, isn't as important as a WHM. If a BLM runs out of MP, someone doesn't die, instead, he/she can just rest for a little more MP once they are out and start casting once they have MP again.

 

[Vilurum]

Whatever you do, I highly suggest the person does not start with THF. Even if they plan to main or sub THF down the road, do not start with it. It's hard enough pre-15 even with a sub.

Of course, it's *possible* to play THF as your first job and unlock your sub with it. Plenty of people have done so, and more power to them. And it'll be relatively painless 15-18. But it's still definitely the most difficult option of the six jobs to start with.

 

[Sculli]

Monk is a popular start, but I think that having a different package for each job would work a little better.

It's mostly a matter of logistics such as storage and resupply to keep different sets around.

I'd like to set it up so that those who do need a little extra help in their first 10 levels (not beyond that) have a place to go to without to feel like they are begging for something.

They will have to earn their keep soon enough, giving a new player a set of bronze, a level 1 weapon, and some food will not take away from them leaning their job, they will still get owned by mobs if they are not careful, but it will help them to get through the first few levels quickly and set them on their way to earn further cash for their real gear beyond the level 1 stuff.

I know, the level 1 stuff can be had for like 4k total, or maybe 5k, and that's no big deal as people can get some crystals while fighting in their starter gear and sell them to buy whatever they need. I think exactly because it's no big deal it's alright to do it.

The AH doesn't always have all the items readily available. Players could come here to receive a "Quetzalcoatl welcomes you!" starter package.
It's inexpensive and a nice gesture.

 

[Shaunessy]

Completely wrong. Never ever level warrior or white mage first. Warrior and white mage are integral members of a party and can make or break whether a party is successful in the dunes.

{Hmmm.} I leveled WHM just fine to 18 without a sub. Was my first job and what I started the game as. Oh and I'm a Hume.

One of my friends leveled WAR to 18 as thier first job right along with me as a WHM.

To make a statement like what you just did is elitest and...WRONG.

 

[dedalius]

It's mostly a matter of logistics such as storage and resupply to keep different sets around.

I'd like to set it up so that those who do need a little extra help in their first 10 levels (not beyond that) have a place to go to without to feel like they are begging for something.

They will have to earn their keep soon enough, giving a new player a set of bronze, a level 1 weapon, and some food will not take away from them leaning their job, they will still get owned by mobs if they are not careful, but it will help them to get through the first few levels quickly and set them on their way to earn further cash for their real gear beyond the level 1 stuff.

I know, the level 1 stuff can be had for like 4k total, or maybe 5k, and that's no big deal as people can get some crystals while fighting in their starter gear and sell them to buy whatever they need. I think exactly because it's no big deal it's alright to do it.

The AH doesn't always have all the items readily available. Players could come here to receive a "Quetzalcoatl welcomes you!" starter package.
It's inexpensive and a nice gesture.

Well, for the starter levels there is only really two sets of gear. Bronze, and the robe set. A basic sword, dagger, axe/gaxe, cesti, and club would be all thats really needed as far as weapons are concerned. It depends on how often it needs to be restocked. A full set would take 6-10 slots of gear, but it is much more versatile than that. For example, one set of bronze would support 3 possible choices, while another set of robes would support the other 3. Much of the gear overlaps, especially at that level.

The only different items would be the weapons really, everything else is duplicated for the different choices.

 

[Tyrath]

You can buy the full starter sets for like less than 1k gil if you find the shops ;x

 

[Lavi]

{Hmmm.} I leveled WHM just fine to 18 without a sub. Was my first job and what I started the game as. Oh and I'm a Hume.

One of my friends leveled WAR to 18 as thier first job right along with me as a WHM.

To make a statement like what you just did is elitest and...WRONG.

First off, I'd be wrong if I stated it's impossible to level those jobs without a subjob which I did not. What I intended for people to take from it was that leveling those jobs would be more beneficial if you started out on the subjob FIRST and then the jobs themselves next. There are more reasons than just those that I stated. Another particular advance is that WHM and WAR are both very common subjobs for other main jobs. If you get to 18 for MNK or BLM, then 30 (37 would be better for fully leveled subjob) on the main job (which would become a subjob for a majority of all advanced jobs), you'd have a subjob already taken to the highest level needed for your main job.

It's not elitist at all if you can grasp that. I suggested the easiest and best method for a new player to advance in the game. Those two jobs benefit the most in the dunes from a subjob because they are the most vital jobs in a party at the time. The added stats will make partying a lot easier on both a new player who is still just learning about the game. a WAR and WHM are both expected to do a lot in a party and if this is the first time in the party, it makes it a lot more difficult for them and the party. All I suggested was making it both easier on them and better for the experience in the long run. So the next time you respond, either grasp what you are reading or do us both a huge favor and just don't respond.

 

[Tim Wakefield]

{Hmmm.} I leveled WHM just fine to 18 without a sub. Was my first job and what I started the game as. Oh and I'm a Hume.

One of my friends leveled WAR to 18 as thier first job right along with me as a WHM.

To make a statement like what you just did is elitest and...WRONG.

I'd have to agree. If you solo from 10-12 and then party till 15-18, i dont think its so "integral" to be the absolute best at your job. EXP at these levels is so easy to come by, any more experienced player can cut through the dunes in a day or so no problem. I realize that it gimps the party, but thats fine. You never gimped a party in your early days? Ill gladly party with a level 15 WAR no sub-job and show him the ropes, Tell him how important his job is, and tell him what it is to "Tank". People helping people. I dont expect every player i invite to my party in the dunes to be completely leet from beginnning to end.

The difference is if somebody WANTS to learn or not. If i give a tip to the afformentioned "Mr. 15 WAR" and he completely disregards what i said, then its Bye-Bye Boot, but if he is willing to take my advice and try to play to the best of his ability, then that is fine, and i can deal with a little less EXP in return for the thought that i helped someone, and maybe made a new friend or two.

On topic: Sculli, your idea is noble and kind, but lets think about it for a second. How many greed-filled asshats are there in this game? Lots. Im sure nearly every person on these boards has been asked for gil by a complete noob at sometime in their gameplay, and its very annoying. Now if that noob sees that "Carebear" is giving away free gear, binded in with a "promise" to return the favor, do you really think that is gonna happen?

Its a nice idea, but i think it would be pretty hard to crack down on someone if they didnt return the favor. Some play this simply for recreation, maybe only on the weekends. Or maybe they take your care package and then quit a week later...? It happens...

 

[Sculli]

You can buy the full starter sets for like less than 1k gil if you find the shops ;x

That's the thing though.
If you are a MNK in Bastok, you are SOL as far as Cesti goes. For whatever screwed up reason SE decided it would be funny to only sell them in Sandoria and Windurst shops. I even tried to come up with some RP explanation as to why that would be, but I can't think of anything.

 

[dedalius]

I'd have to agree. If you solo from 10-12 and then party till 15-18, i dont think its so "integral" to be the absolute best at your job. EXP at these levels is so easy to come by, any more experienced player can cut through the dunes in a day or so no problem. I realize that it gimps the party, but thats fine. You never gimped a party in your early days? Ill gladly party with a level 15 WAR no sub-job and show him the ropes, Tell him how important his job is, and tell him what it is to "Tank". People helping people. I dont expect every player i invite to my party in the dunes to be completely leet from beginnning to end.

The difference is if somebody WANTS to learn or not. If i give a tip to the afformentioned "Mr. 15 WAR" and he completely disregards what i said, then its Bye-Bye Boot, but if he is willing to take my advice and try to play to the best of his ability, then that is fine, and i can deal with a little less EXP in return for the thought that i helped someone, and maybe made a new friend or two.

On topic: Sculli, your idea is noble and kind, but lets think about it for a second. How many greed-filled asshats are there in this game? Lots. Im sure nearly every person on these boards has been asked for gil by a complete noob at sometime in their gameplay, and its very annoying. Now if that noob sees that "Carebear" is giving away free gear, binded in with a "promise" to return the favor, do you really think that is gonna happen?

Its a nice idea, but i think it would be pretty hard to crack down on someone if they didnt return the favor. Some play this simply for recreation, maybe only on the weekends. Or maybe they take your care package and then quit a week later...? It happens...

I disagree. Yes, they can function as the white mage. I don't think it's an argument about not helping people. There is no problem with helping people, there are just less important, and less initially stressful jobs out there. IE Monk, or black mage. What I believe Lavi is saying is that it is probably beneficial for them to see these integral party workings from an outside (ish) perspective. It's easier and ultimately better for the party for the new person to see someone who knows the ropes tank than to do it themselves. This introduction to party mechanics is more effective when the new person isn't faced with too much immediate responsibility.

 

[Lavi]

I'd have to agree. If you solo from 10-12 and then party till 15-18, i dont think its so "integral" to be the absolute best at your job. EXP at these levels is so easy to come by, any more experienced player can cut through the dunes in a day or so no problem. I realize that it gimps the party, but thats fine. You never gimped a party in your early days? Ill gladly party with a level 15 WAR no sub-job and show him the ropes, Tell him how important his job is, and tell him what it is to "Tank". People helping people. I dont expect every player i invite to my party in the dunes to be completely leet from beginnning to end.

The difference is if somebody WANTS to learn or not. If i give a tip to the afformentioned "Mr. 15 WAR" and he completely disregards what i said, then its Bye-Bye Boot, but if he is willing to take my advice and try to play to the best of his ability, then that is fine, and i can deal with a little less EXP in return for the thought that i helped someone, and maybe made a new friend or two.

Ok, I didn't say anything about this being the only way things should done. What I suggested was a better alternative since this would be both easier and best on a new player. As it stands when a person first joins a party, they more than likely know absolutely nothing more than auto attack or to cast spells. They probably don't know macros, much about job roles, positioning, and even their job abilities. The best thing is to teach them slowly and give them little bits so they can process that and then progress further. WAR and WHM require a lot of work in lower level parties. It would be BEST if they learned a little bit at first on a job that doesn't have such a vital role in the party first, then when they come back on a more vital job such like warrior and white mage, they can learn a little more.

This is just like school. You don't toss a 5 year old into high school and expect him to learn everything by the time the bell rings do you? No. You bring a 5 year old to preschool and expect him to start learning to count and the alphabet, the basics. Not everything, just the basics. I know you aren't 5 and probably can process a lot more information too, but the idea still holds true. You don't just toss someone into something extremely difficult without at least knowing some of the basics and as you should know the best way to learn the basics is through experience. Let them learn the basics through a job that isn't as vital, then progress them into something harder. This has nothing to do with gimping. This isn't being elitist. This isn't a mandatory method which everyone should follow. This is just a good way for someone to get easily through the game without being burdened more than they should be. Is it impossible to level WAR or WHM first? No. Will a WAR or WHM benefit more from leveling a subjob first? Yes and that's all that matters.

 

[Sculli]

Now if that noob sees that "Carebear" is giving away free gear, binded in with a "promise" to return the favor, do you really think that is gonna happen?

Its a nice idea, but i think it would be pretty hard to crack down on someone if they didnt return the favor. Some play this simply for recreation, maybe only on the weekends. Or maybe they take your care package and then quit a week later...? It happens...

Actually, I wasn't going to make the starter package conditional, meaning there are no promises to be given.

Often quoted I am sure, but once again in it's entirety.​

A man was walking along the beach one morning and he came upon a boy who was throwing starfish back into the ocean. The man asked the boy, "What are you doing?" The boy replied, "I'm trying to save all these sea stars from dying." The man looked up from his spot and scanned the beach. The man saw thousands upon thousands of starfish scattered along the shore. The man then said, "You cannot save them all; there are too many, you cannot make a difference!" The boy, not bothered by the man's remarks, picked up another sea star, threw it back into the ocean, and said to the man, "It made a difference to that one!"​

That evening the man couldn't sleep. In the morning, he returned to the beach, searched for the young man, joined him and, together, they started throwing sea stars back to the ocean.​

Let's be, then, one more willing to make this world a better place. Let's be the difference!

It's a bit over the top, but it illustrates the point.

If it takes a few minutes out of my day to do it, and it reaches someone for whom it will actually be meaningful, then why not do it?​

I understand that there will be some, many, if not most, who will take it for granted and not think twice about it, and most certainly never ever practice an act of kindness themselves. There will also be those who will truly appreciate it, and for those it's worth doing imho.​

 

[Grem]

. I even tried to come up with some RP explanation as to why that would be, but I can't think of anything.

Galka delicacy

 

[annabelle]

Completely wrong. Never ever... it is inexcusable to... can only expect you to...

...is and will always be... You will never...

Always... has always been...

This kind of absolute, generalized thinking might be a little out of place for the chaos of Valkurm Dunes, don't you think? If you're willing to abandon your concepts of "always" and "never," you might remember that a WAR/--- doesn't always have to tank, that he can make a better DD than a MNK/---, that just about any other melee class can help tank at those levels (especially a MNK/WAR), that other mages like RDM or anything subbing /WHM can help heal, that the WHM often runs out of MP because the DDs suck and can't kill the mob easily enough, that XP chains usually aren't much of a factor at those levels (at least not with a PL), and that an inexperienced BLM can bring a party down faster than a WHM by overnuking, taking aggro, and dying. You do make some good points, but I think your expectations of dunes parties might be a little unrealistic. Honestly, if anyone recruits a WAR/--- or WHM/--- as the sole tank or sole healer in a dunes party, then something else is wrong besides the lack of unlocked subjobs.

I've played on two different characters, and in doing so I've experienced subjobless leveling from both a WHM main and a MNK main. And from experience, I can say that the MNK main sucked big time. I was often outdamaged by subjobless WARs I leveled with, and the only thing that ever kept me on par with them was the fact that I had earned enough gil from the WHM character to buy the expensive Replublic Knuckles and other +1 equipment, but even then I was still envious of Berserk. When I finally hit lvl 18 and caught up my WAR sub, I was happy not only for the huge boost to STR and DEX, but for the fact that my MNK could now serve a purpose in tanking if necessary, finally putting that HP, VIT, and Counter to use. I'd have to say I was far more useful with my WHM character.

So I think WAR is pretty good for a first run. I would personally rather take the time to teach a new WAR the ways of Provoke in the Dunes than to have a MNK finish 18 levels with the assumption that the rest of the party is going to carry his weight for him. And from the perspective of the new player (remember, this thread's about them, not about you), they will learn more about the game and receive faster invites by fulfilling the roles a party can't live without.