New sub option for Blm and Brd

[Nikoloi]

i logged in yesterday and the first thing i saw was Neogearzx RDM/PLD working wonders lol

 

[crookedmidget]

I think the /WHM sub for Bard is pretty key in exp parties. There are times when you don't get a WHM/ as your healer, so the Bard is used for BAR(element)RA spells, and backup curing while the main healer is resting. In my experience DS is key for not emergency situations (which it's great for, don't get me wrong) but keeping the exp flowing. Especially 70-75 when fighting weapons. That AoE attack is brutal on the party, as well as the WHMs MP. Keeping stoneskin up, and Curaga kept me alive and the EXP flowing. In the 60's, I was the one most often casting Barfira or Baraera in Bibiki Bay, since I was standing right there anyway.

Although, there are times when I am pulling as BRD. Specifically, how would /PLD assist BRD/ in this situation?

 

[Khajit]

You can't really sub anything but whm on bard. brd is there for the bar and
-na spells. While it might be good for some of the less skilled bards the best bards people meet remove bad status effects in place of or when the whm or rdm are busy curing ect.

 

[Osse]

When I heard about the pld auto-refresh addition my first thought was having it sub on BST instead of whm sub. But comparing the two, I don't think they're about equal.

WHM sub: stoneskin, blink, whm debuffs, auto-regen, regen spell

PLD sub: higher defense, auto-refresh, shield mastery

I'll probably stick w/ whm sub on my bst personally, but pld sub is a viable option for bst who hate levelling mage jobs, heh.

Oh, and this is really Fellina, my computer crapped out and I forgot to logout Osse's account on his computer. >_>

 

[Mishaela]

Sorry if this was already answered...

But does SMN and PLD auto-refresh stack? That could be pretty useful for solo...

 

[Firestreak]

When I heard about the pld auto-refresh addition my first thought was having it sub on BST instead of whm sub. But comparing the two, I don't think they're about equal.

WHM sub: stoneskin, blink, whm debuffs, auto-regen, regen spell

PLD sub: higher defense, auto-refresh, shield mastery

I'll probably stick w/ whm sub on my bst personally, but pld sub is a viable option for bst who hate levelling mage jobs, heh.

Oh, and this is really Fellina, my computer crapped out and I forgot to logout Osse's account on his computer. >_>

What about stats for /pld? Bst/Pld seemed to make sense to me before this update even but now even more...

At level 14.. my bst/whm has 14 str 17 dex 15 vit 16 agi 21 chr ( relevant stats?)

My bst/pld has... 15 str 18 dex 17 vit 15 agi 21 chr

I may be wrong but I believe at higher levels PLD will have more CHR than WHM as a subjob... although as a main job they seem identical.

Of course the defense bonuses are useful too.

More HP, less MP... but autorefresh... dunno... I think i'd sub pld.

 

[Bajaratt]

Sorry if this was already answered...

But does SMN and PLD auto-refresh stack? That could be pretty useful for solo...

Nope, none of the job traits will stack if the two jobs give the same triat.

 

[Lavi]

Blm sub only gives me about 100-120 at lvl 75. I don't have pld unlocked, so I can't say how much it would give at 75/37, but I would wager 30-40 at least. However, you are forgetting max mp is insignifigant at upper lvls compared to the rate you can regain mp. To counter your point, I'll point out most blms don't emptry their mp every chain. For example, as a whm/blm with 1150 mp, I never go below 400 mp during exp. I could have 650 mp or 10,000 mp, it wouldn't matter. However, if I had 10,000 mp and used it all up every chain, I would still have to spend a longer time resting to regain it. Blm/pld can regain mp faster than Blm/whm. MpRegain>>> max mp.

As WHM, I try never to let my MP get really low because I like to have a lot of MP in case of emergencies, but that's WHM. As BLM I like to nuke till my heart is content and it's not content until the mob is dead. There are huge differences in the way I play WHM and the way I play BLM. As WHM I try to be as efficient as possible with my MP. I like to toss high level Cures, use regens, barspells all to save a little MP overall, but when I am as BLM I have no care in the world about my MP. Often my MP pool is the only thing that ever stops me and even then I just rest to get back up and do it all over again. There are times when the party doesn't have TP for a SC at the start so you know what I do? I nuke the thing until it dies whether that means I pull a lot of hate or not, I don't care, I have Cure and Drain. That chain 5 is coming? I waste all my MP to make sure I get that chain. WHM doesn't have that liberty. They can't Cure V a PLD hoping to make to get the chain faster, but my Blizzards and Thunders do.

I already pointed out that it would be situational use against enemies who didn't use heavy status effects. Stat differences are going to be insignifigant as I already stated. I'm not even positive whm has a higher int rating than pld. I seem to remember having very low int as 75 whm.

You are playing with lazy brds who get by only because of their job. Good brds and all those aspiring to be good should fully use their mp. I always drain my mp as a brd quickly. Brd/whm and Brd/pld can heal exactly the same if you are up against a non-aoe enemy, except Brd/pld will be able to heal more per hour than the brd/whm. Your points counterdict each other. If the brd doesn't cure, then what he subs is irrevelent. If he does cure, then he can get more curing power with /pld if curagas are not needed (obviously won't work for rampage parties in sky or krt).

I wouldn't call them bad bards. I hate being WHM and someone else tries to Cure. I find it annoying as hell. I toss out a Cure V only to see someone else tossed a Cure III in there before me and I only cured 400 HP. I just wasted 47 MP when I could have used a Cure IV for that much HP. But I do expect when an emergency arrises and they always do, a BRD can be able to take control and do some extra curing. Sub PLD just doesn't give that option. If they have a base pool which is much lower, than they can only sustain a couple of Cure IIIs before they are out of MP and do you think telling the mob to wait 30 seconds while my auto refresh kicks in so I can cure is gonna work? Or maybe my base MP from WHM could have given me that needed Cure III when I needed it and not when the Auto refresh got around to it.

Thanks for falling back on your knee-jerk reflexes and ignoring the changes that have been made. There is potential here if you will stop and think about it without the old conotations we have been locked into. If I had pld lvled, I would seriously consider using it depending on the party setup and enemy.

I did think about it and beyond auto refresh there is nothing worthwhile.

I know stat calculators are notoriously inaccurate, but this one reports whm and pld subbed giving nearly the same int at all levels. I know its not reliable at 60+, but I do believe them to be pretty accurate pre 60 when the formuleas are reliable. Stat differences for any fully lvled sub are largely insignifigant. That is lesson #1 from sub job choices 101. You choose for the abilties, spells, and traits, not the stats.

Edit: For example, thf, drk, and brd all give more int than whm. The stats are irrelevent.

So people that are BLM/RDM chose /RDM for the spells and abilities instead of the stats? Or maybe they chose it for both. Both WHM and RDM give added spells and abilities to BLM main, but only /RDM gives the INT boost. I've even had people want to go BLM/NIN because the NIN sub gives more INT and he could dual wield INT clubs for extra INT. Although I must admit this was in the jungles, the guy sucked and I do believe he over nuked got himself killed, had to go to HP, but that still doesn't disprove that people do chose subjobs for stats and not just abilities.

 

[Khajit]

Blm/rdm is used to take atvantage of the magic atk bonus traits rdm get and stacking them with the ones blm has already.

 

[Mishaela]

Khaj, it was just said two posts above yours, job traits don't stack. XD (MAB1 and MAB1 don't stack).

Pretty sure BLMs go /RDM for Gravity, Fast Cast and the INT bonus. Then again, I'm not a BLM so I don't 100% know.

 

[Firestreak]

I'm not sure if Mab stacks or not. I know I do a lot more damage. If there's one spell I really love as a bonus it's phalanx. Once you pile on the big damage gear phalanx is almost required just to nuke.

 

[Khajit]

Sorry I mixed up rdm/blm with blm/rdm somehow.

 

[Rones]

These are in opposite order from posting, so most recent to oldest.

Often my MP pool is the only thing that ever stops me and even then I just rest to get back up and do it all over again.

Then pld sub is just what you need. Which would be more valuable to a blm, +3mph or +50 mp? Autorefresh works out to be equivalent to +3.333mph while you are resting and getting mp ticks every 10 seconds, except autorefresh works all the time. Thus I would easily compare it to +8 to +10 mph because we spend a lot of time standing or in the intial phase of resting where the ticks are extremely slow and autorefresh has a stronger effect in comparison to each tick of resting.

I wouldn't call them bad bards. I hate being WHM and someone else tries to Cure.

I've played it from both sides. I love it when a brd uses his mp and helps out. It means I can throw out more hastes for example. Brds who don't use their mp are lazy and bad brds. The problem is they are so numerous they have become the status quo.

brd is there for the bar and -na spells.

Brd bar spells are weak due to no enhancing skill on main. Only time they see any use is bibiki bay against gobs, but that stops when most people come 70+. Even then, their should be a whm or rdm/whm there throwing barfira because theres is much, much stronger. The -na spells are situational. Same reason rdm/blms get away without having whm sub so often.

1200 MP in an hour is nothing to a BLM. I throw away 1200 MP every 3 minutes.

You can't regain 1,200 mp in 3 mins. Even at 50 mp every 10 seconds, that is only 900mp. Ok, don't look at as mp per hour, look at is a +8 to +10 mpH. Errant body only nets you +5mph. And this is in addition to your regular mp. How many mp does whm or rdm sub give you? Oh yeah 0. Does that 5 extra int over an hour give you the equivalent of 1,200 mp worth of additionaly nukes?

. I read before that bards who don't drain their MP pools are lazy, and that is complete crap. In a good party, especially with NIN tank, BRD should not have to cure except in emergencies, where DS Curaga II is invaluable. I say they should not have to cure because they should not have time to cure; if exp moves fast enough a Bard should have time to sing 2 ballads, 2 melee songs, and 3 debuffs, not much more. The extra 1mp/tick is really insignificant when you have a 3mp/tick refresh whenever you need it, or especially if you're paired with a RDM.

They are lazy. You can easily do all your brd duties and cure if you are even just a mediocre brd. I manage to empy my 500 mp pool every chain while still doing all my brds and pulling. Two melee buffs, pull, two mage buffs, pull, rinse, repeat, insert cures as needed. Both mage and melee buffs don't need to be rebuffed every fight if your party is moving at a proper speed. This is also why ballad alone doesn't suffice for a brd's mp needs. Half the time, he will have melee buffs on instead of ballad.

It's usefulness is highly situational. Maybe if I was lvl 70 and headed to the Den of Rancor. Or perhaps out in Ule*whatthemafuckever* range. I haven't done much in sky, a couple of partys at the Ulli camp, and not much else, but it seems viable for that. But oh, how I do love my stoneskin.

We have a whole new world coming out designed for high lvls. I expect some new exp zones. Chances are, there will be some where this will be pretty viable.

BRD/WHM gives way more support-wise than BRD/PLD, WAY WAY more. I can have up to 400+ MP on my BRD75 if I want, but frankly, even in HNM situation, I never use that much, and I'm always paired (in those situations) with a RDM anyway. If needed he can refresh me, but he barely needs to, ballad is more than I need.

How so though? You both have the exact same cures, except one has autorefresh and the other has curagas and -nas. If the -nas and -agas aren't needed, autorefresh will win. If you don't find yourself tapping all your mp, you aren't trying hard enough. It is very possible and very easy to do.

Why hasn't anyone mentioned Drk/Pld yet god dammit!

I did kind of in the first post. I made a special note that anyone can sub it to help out their soloing.

 

[Claxton]

Wonder what kind of an int penalty you'd be looking at for /pld.

Wonder what kind of mp penalty you'd be facing too.

Whm has a low base int, so it would be about the same.

 

[Kalendor]

BRD/WHM gives way more support-wise than BRD/PLD, WAY WAY more. I can have up to 400+ MP on my BRD75 if I want, but frankly, even in HNM situation, I never use that much, and I'm always paired (in those situations) with a RDM anyway. If needed he can refresh me, but he barely needs to, ballad is more than I need.

How so though? You both have the exact same cures, except one has autorefresh and the other has curagas and -nas. If the -nas and -agas aren't needed, autorefresh will win. If you don't find yourself tapping all your mp, you aren't trying hard enough. It is very possible and very easy to do.

No, I don't agree, you don't WANT to use your MP just to use your MP in HNM situations, you need those MP when your WHM needs to rest and you need to main heal for a bit for instance. Those are emergency MP. Those are curaga MP for wyrm wings, your goal if you have MP is not to empty it, your goal is to use it wisely. If I don't need to use my MP, I simply don't. If you have 500 MP and use it every chain on BRD, you're doing someone else's job. Maybe that makes you feel superior but maybe also the WHM or the PLD are thinking: wtf is this BRD curing with Cure III the PLD from yellow to white all the time?

Also you're forgetting all the -na and most importantly Erase. That's what I would miss the most.

Now I think if I read behind the lines, you're thinking more of a MP-thin PT. Let's say a cannon PT in sky with BRD+RDM only ! Now yeah maybe I would like to have 1MP/tick because I know I'll end up having to sing balladx2 in addition to those 2 melee songs, which will slow me from pulling more and faster. Also I don't need the -na from WHM because I just don't against those weapons. I would be willing to test BRD/PLD on ONLY this type of PT. Anything where I could potentially need Erase and -na, forget it, I'm not giving up WHM.

 

[Lavi]

Also, for BLM/PLD vs BLM/WHM, I think you overlook the power of clean mind I/II !!! BLM spend most of their time resting, at least the Firestreak-kind of BLM. They gain more resting with /WHM sub than resting with /PLD sub even if you factor in the 1 MP/tick I think, although I'm too lazy to do the math. You're good at that though, I'm sure you can figure it out

Clear mind is given to all mage jobs thus far and it does not stack. As WHM I have Clear Mind IV and by subbing BLM or WAR, I still get the same base MP resting rate with either.

Edit: I reread your post and although what I said was correct, I think you meant to say BRD/WHM and BRD/PLD when you in fact said BLM/WHM and BLM/PLD which would make more sense as BRD main does not in fact have Clear Mind.

Blm/rdm is used to take atvantage of the magic atk bonus traits rdm get and stacking them with the ones blm has already.

Magic Attack Bonus also does not stack. Both BLM and RDM get these traits and they have levels to them. I tested this out as my LS didn't agree with me and you can see the difference. If you get help for this it works best because they can hold the mob so that you are testing the same mob and not a different one that may be higher or lower level. Have your friend voke the mob so he has claim and once you zone, he can hold it till you come back. Go outside any nation and nuke a mob (mob should be low level and use it's weakness to reduce resists) as BLM/RDM naked. Take note of the damage you do to the mob. Zone back into the nation and before changing you sub to WHM, take note of your base INT and then switch. Take note of your new base INT and it will be lower so add +INT items so that your INT equals the base INT of BLM/RDM. Go outside and nuke the mob your friend is holding. Take note of the damage. Both are the exact same damage. This is supposing your RDM sub is high enough to have Mag. Att. Bonus I which mine does. Had the Mag Att Bonus added, your nuke should have improved by subbing RDM and it did not; therefore, I can conclude they do not in fact stack.

 

[Kalendor]

Clear mind is given to all mage jobs thus far and it does not stack. As WHM I have Clear Mind IV and by subbing BLM or WAR, I still get the same base MP resting rate with either.

You're right, my bad, I somehow had the impression it was whm only So I guess it doesn't stack either. Forget that part of my post !

 

[Pompidou]

SE did mention wanting to expand the list of viable subjobs used in the game. I think autorefresh at a subbable level was a deliberate choice. I don't foresee it being adjusted to a higher level, and if it's deemed too powerful to be subbable, it has a lot of other abilities to be adjusted before it, for example, utsusemi ni is often argued towards being 38+.

 

[Lanien]

I wish my PLD was high enough to sub on BRD. I would definitely test it out. I like the idea of having the auto-refresh on me when I have the melee songs in casting. I only have like ... 250mp on BRD after using food as an Elvaan. I have gear that can boost my MP up to around 325-350. However, it's all situational. If I need to heal more, I will use /WHM sub and throw in some MP gear. However, now that PLD has auto-refresh, it might just be a viable sub since I get the same cures, and now I could just switch to that MP gear permanently to make up the lost MP from /WHM, which wouldn't be that much anyways.

I think Rones just might be right with his theory of PLD for a sub on BRD. Plus, it would definitely help with pulling in any party, as I seem to find myself doing a lot simply because I ask the party if I can pull. The added difference can mean the difference between life or death if a pull goes bad.

 

[Rones]

If you have 500 MP and use it every chain on BRD, you're doing someone else's job. Maybe that makes you feel superior but maybe also the WHM or the PLD are thinking: wtf is this BRD curing with Cure III the PLD from yellow to white all the time?

If i'm using 500 mp, I'm allowing longer chains before the healer's mp runs out or splitting the load best I can so we never have downtime from the healer running out of mp. It additionally allows the mage to do other things with their mp like more hastes. 4 melees, 1 brd, 1 healer parties make it hard for the healer to haste more than 2 people. However, with my curing they might be able to haste 3.

Sitting around with full mp waiting for an emergency is an excuse commonly used by brds to be lazy during exp. "Healing isn't my job" or "I'm saving it for an emergency" are the two most common lines from brds who are too lazy to make full use of their mp. When I describe the brd job, I consider it 1/3 buffing, 1/3 curing, and 1/3 pulling. When pulling isn't an option its 1/2 buffing, 1/2 curing.

Is it the be all, win all sub to beat everything in all situations? Heck, no. Is it a new possibility for blms to consider using which makes them versitile? Yes. It might not be the best sub in all sceniarious, but it does work moderately well in many different situations. Don't look a new option down. At the worst, you are better off than you used to be with more options available. Consider it a new tool in your bag of tricks. When worrying about nerfs, you shouldn't treat possible boosts with disdain and arrogance.