Noobs and you…

Lavi

Genkai Conqueror
Adventurer
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
Messages
1,968
Lately I’ve been kind of annoyed at the constant stupidity that almost breeds at every level and people’s unwillingness to fix the problem. I have jobs at a wide range of levels in the game and I am constantly partying these days. However, as I get higher I expect more from players especially after 30 since at post 30 levels, most of the important abilities are useable at that time and also advanced jobs are newly accessible. By this time all players should know basic party dynamics, macros, and other jobs limits. Now I know this seems like another rant on how people are stupid and refuse to learn or how some are complete noobs; however, I am trying to provide you with the opposite perspective and lately it has been really bugging me.

People have been unwilling to fix the problems and thus the problem just persists. I am annoyed that whenever I party, there is usually 1 person, if not more, who cannot play their job right or messes up repeatedly so badly that the experience is not worth the time. No one and I mean no one wants to say a thing. Why? They are too afraid if they say anything that they will be kicked from the party and will lose out on experience. First off, you are the idiots for not saying anything. How is this person an idiot if no one is willing to teach him or her how to play the job properly? You expect them to magically figure out everything on their own when most everyone in this game has asked others about one fact or another at some point in the game? What’s the worst that could happen? You get kicked from a bad party that more than likely is not worth the time, effort and annoyance? If you do get kicked, all the better, that means you slowed the leveling of someone who should not be getting any further in the first place.

Now what pisses me off even more is the constant groveling of players before in demand jobs. “He’s a ninja, a ranger or white mage so we can’t say anything to him or else he might leave…” Give me a break. If he is a stupid dumbass, then tell him he is a stupid dumbass. Don’t kiss his ass because he decided to play X job. You still need 5 other players to make a party and he needs that party just as much as you do. If you are ranger and you ruin the party experience because you want to tank like a moron, then something NEEDS to be said. It doesn’t matter that he is a ranger because he is no different from a monk who decides he wants to tank. The only difference is you don’t care as long as that ranger is in your party and not whether the monk would get you more experience.

This goes out to all the moron party leaders. It is your responsibility to find players to make a competent party. If you cannot make one or are unsure of your abilities to do so, then do not make one. Making a party requires more than just finding 6 people to kill a mob, it requires a good SC, a proper camp, a good tank and healer among many other things. But the leader’s responsibilities do not end there. If someone in the party is gimping the experience, it is your responsibility to correct the problem. That does not mean kicking the person. You have to educate the person before kicking ever gets to be an option. Explain to the person his or her responsibilities in the party and teach them the best you can. Do not demean or belittle them as this gets you and the party nowhere. If for some reason this person cannot adjust or will not then by all means kick them, but do NOT stand idly by while some idiot progresses further in the game. All you are doing is continuing their progression and making it worse for yourself.


Not too long ago I was invited to a party as a thief. The party setup was amazing in my opinion. Thief, monk, ninja, bard, white mage and black mage. The ninja was post 37 so should be able to tank fairly well but pre-haste so it might be a little tough. To my dismay, the party was all right; however, it was far from the perfect or even close to what it should have been. The reason: the ninja was stupid. The ninja did not buy Utsusemi: Ni which is a very expensive spell but he knew very well that he would be tanking, so why would he party if he knew he wasn’t up to the task? Now had this been the only problem, experience would not have been bad as it was, but no, he didn’t even understand the basic concept of SATA, nor did he understand enough to cast Utsusemi at the beginning of the fight and once again after his 3rd shadow was gone to get a total of 6 shadows. Now the leader knew I was pissed as I had been very vocal about it but he did nothing. I tried to explain to the ninja how to do his job better but it was all in vain as the ninja was Japanese and did not understand English nor do I know enough Japanese to tell him. The only option left was to kick the ninja; however, we cannot do that because a ninja in the party no matter how stupid is better than a party without a ninja… I finally disbanded from the party thoroughly annoyed and hoping to spare myself of the aneurism that I was sure to get.

Now a couple of things could have been done to fix this. Someone could have explained to the ninja how to play his job appropriately. I did that. Many times. The only option remaining was to kick the person but the leader did not wish to and now a bad player only progresses further in levels. Now all you people complain and do nothing to fix these problems because to you getting any experience is better than getting no experience and are too afraid to lose a party. I beg to disagree, getting experience is great when I get an amazing party but I cannot join a party and play when I know someone is not playing well enough or playing so poorly to ruin my entertainment. And when you complain about the next idiot who ruins your party, just remember, you are also responsible for getting the idiot to that level and getting him more experience.

I know full well I am going to be flamed for this, its a given, but I know I am responsible for helping countless people get more experience than they ever deserved, but I am willing to admit that and try to fix it.
 
I aggree with you 100% on this, i cant stand it when i get an invite to a party and the Tank doesnt know how to control hate. I know im a Ranger and i can pull hate pritty Fast with Sidewinder but for a PLD there should be no problem getting back hate.. well this wasnt the case in a party the other day, the PLD for a few fights didnt even use any MP and didnt even understand what "Cover" was. Its poeple like that, that give there job a bad name, its not hard to /tell a Mentor the same job as you and ask a few questions, thats what there here for.
 
I agree with everything you said. That nin is crazy too. Ni is a defining spell of the job. It would be like Rdm not buying refresh. He shout be forced to commit <Nin 2hr> before he parties.

This is half the reason my only party experience in the last 2 months has been to take Thf from 15-18, and most of that was solo. Of course the other half is that I have been super committed to pushing my craft to 100.....
 
Spriggan said:
I aggree with you 100% on this, i cant stand it when i get an invite to a party and the Tank doesnt know how to control hate.

It doesn't get any better either. I remember at 70, I partied with a Pld that refused to use MP because he was saving TP for his crap-ass WS. Not only did it screw with hate, but he would randomly throw it in on top of the established SC, thereby changing the chain and screwing my MB. Damn I wish I could remember that guys name! Mobion, mobious, something! I did meet Thadeus in that party though!
 
Flip side of the coin....I was certainly a noob once too. But I spent countless hours reading the Warrior boards on alla, reading forums here, reading all kinds of guides, and closely watching the people I was playing with. At some point there, I stopped being a noob and became proficient at my job(s). No one had to hold my hand.
 
I know that I'm kinda like that sometimes. I'm level 39 PLD now, and I just found out how to PROPERLY use cover. However, I do my best to remedy my situations: Just about every party I'm in ask if I'm tanking ok. I hope that the answers I get are honest, and not just people being nice. If you want to say that I suck, go ahead and do so, in a polite, constructive criticism manner, it'll help me to make your experience and mine better. I just hope that I'm not the PLD Spriggan was talking about.... :? If so, I'm sorry! :(
 
Yah..

Yah I also totally agree with you. Although I am too much of a perfectionist when it comes to my jobs, I at least expect the average 'adventurer' to get a damned clue. I can think of several occasions where I was in a party that had.. that guy... that everyone knows is a total fuck up but doesn't want to say it... because it will disrupt xp flow. So many people will sit there and tell me that some XP is better than no xp at all. I have a good friend, pld75 smn75 who always shuns me when I bitch about my pt not even pulling 3k an hour. He keeps telling me to be patient and be glad that I am getting some xp period. I guess it is my psychotic personality or something but I cannot and will not stand by while someone is fucking it up for the rest of us. And what happens if I say something about it in party chat? I , ME, become the bad guy all of a sudden. They immediately forget the fact that Mr. Fuckup over there on the right is screwing us over, now Mr Bitchalot on the left is complaining about low xp flow and suggesting that we disrupt it to fix the problem. Everyone lately seems to think that some xp is better than sitting in Jeuno for umpteen hours seeking. Thats not so true for me. If someone is pissing me off because they suck, I will usually leave if they are not replaced. Now that I finally have a computer I can finish my college courses needed for my first AA degree!!! Yay me.
 
Yah..

Yah I also totally agree with you. Although I am too much of a perfectionist when it comes to my jobs, I at least expect the average 'adventurer' to get a damned clue. I can think of several occasions where I was in a party that had.. that guy... that everyone knows is a total fuck up but doesn't want to say it... because it will disrupt xp flow. So many people will sit there and tell me that some XP is better than no xp at all. I have a good friend, pld75 smn75 who always shuns me when I bitch about my pt not even pulling 3k an hour. He keeps telling me to be patient and be glad that I am getting some xp period. I guess it is my psychotic personality or something but I cannot and will not stand by while someone is fucking it up for the rest of us. And what happens if I say something about it in party chat? I , ME, become the bad guy all of a sudden. They immediately forget the fact that Mr. Fuckup over there on the right is screwing us over, now Mr Bitchalot on the left is complaining about low xp flow and suggesting that we disrupt it to fix the problem. Everyone lately seems to think that some xp is better than sitting in Jeuno for umpteen hours seeking. Thats not so true for me. If someone is pissing me off because they suck, I will usually leave if they are not replaced. Now that I finally have a computer I can finish my college courses needed for my first AA degree!!! Yay me.
 
Lavi said:
First off, you are the idiots for not saying anything. How is this person an idiot if no one is willing to teach him or her how to play the job properly? You expect them to magically figure out everything on their own when most everyone in this game has asked others about one fact or another at some point in the game?

For the past 10 levels or so, I have begun to expect almost nothing from a party. Everyone knows that you'll run into a person who's a complete jackass and/or completely stupid. I have never had a static, so I've seen my share of idiotic players.

However, I am the type of person who likes to be left alone when it comes to playing my job, for the most part. 99% of the time I keep refresh and haste on those who need it as well as dispel on the mobs who need it. Very rarely do I miss a dispel or refresh, and I've grown tired of getting shouted at by people who think the mob needs a dispel, but actually doesn't -- and by BLMs or DRKs who want a refresh but are at the end of my cycle while I'm just starting to refresh myself.

So I came to the decision of if they leave me alone with my job, I won't harrass someone else on theirs.

Just my side of it.
 
I had the same experience, too.

It was a level 40 party in Gustav Tunnel. Enternalangel, who was a RDM40 at the time, didn't do her job right at all. I criticised her and we got into an argument. As a result the whole party jumped on me for bitching at EA. Flameass, who was in the party, even called me a "prick" :cry:

From that day I kept my mouth shut in party chat.

Or send the person a /tell begging him to do it right with who know how many "sorry", "please" and "^^;"
 
Typhan said:
I know that I'm kinda like that sometimes. I'm level 39 PLD now, and I just found out how to PROPERLY use cover. However, I do my best to remedy my situations: Just about every party I'm in ask if I'm tanking ok. I hope that the answers I get are honest, and not just people being nice. If you want to say that I suck, go ahead and do so, in a polite, constructive criticism manner, it'll help me to make your experience and mine better. I just hope that I'm not the PLD Spriggan was talking about.... :? If so, I'm sorry! :(

lol Nah man it wasnt you, it was like 6days ago in a lvl 57ish party. Too bad i cant remeber the plds name -.-;
 
You guys must be gimped >.> I never lost hate and had to use cover till 50s.

Maybe it's because I'm a stinge though. If they can take the hits while voke timer goes up (utsu or just plain losing hp >.> losing hp takes away hate from them :twisted:) I'll let them do that. But if I know the hate is going to be there for a while (beefy sidewinder/spinning slash), I'll cover and hope to god I get the hate back >.>

It's not easy holding hate off 1.4k spike damage D:
 
Eulore said:
You guys must be gimped >.> I never lost hate and had to use cover till 50s.

Maybe it's because I'm a stinge though. If they can take the hits while voke timer goes up (utsu or just plain losing hp >.> losing hp takes away hate from them :twisted:) I'll let them do that. But if I know the hate is going to be there for a while (beefy sidewinder/spinning slash), I'll cover and hope to god I get the hate back >.>

It's not easy holding hate off 1.4k spike damage D:

I dont agree with letting people lose hate from losing hp, that just sucks up MP. I'm someone who likes to be completely efficient so it irks me when someone isnt doing their Job right I at least let them know there is a better way to do it. I usually dont lose hate ever but sometimes it happens (like when I fudge on timing for a cure, paralyse hits me as soon as I voke, or for some reason I'm low on mp which I at least make sure I always have a dark staff with me). It may be rare but Cover is good for emergency situations like that.

As for the main topic I whole-heartedly agree. I am almost forced to make my own parties because I am sick of crappy leaders and crappy pt's. I force people to wait for a proper setup, I make sure everyone has what they need, I make sure we know where we are going and what we will be using (sc's and the like) during the fight. I like to be prepared before I go into anything so I make sure to do my research. There are occasions where I dont have access to the info (for instance my windower doesnt work anymore XD) so I use people for info.

I also make sure to communicate with people and watch the goings of the battle. If I know a good deal of damage is coming for the mob (like a light chain or so) I'll make sure to get more hate than I usually do. I work on keeping hate not stacking though, I want to maintain just enough hate to keep it on me but not too much as where It will never come off me (in emergencies, mages out of mp and so on). I also keep my macro's as <t> and use a /target <bt> macro to select the mob for better add control if that situation arrives.

I have researched my job and I have observed all the other job's perform, though I'm no expert, so I at least know how a Job is supposed to work and the flow of the parties. I at least expect people to be knowledgeable about their job, if they arent I will try to help them so they play their Job to it's fullest of abilities. It seems so far that every party that I have lead has been a succes (good rate of exp/hour) so I know I am at least doing something right.
 
Yeah see i agree with this, however this is hard to do. Often times people have the "STFU QUIT TELLING ME HOW TO DO MY DAMN JOB!!" attitude. So you try to suggest doing something different and they jump on you. If it were me, id just disband. If someone isnt doing their job right im not gonna sit there and lose XP because of it. I mean if a ninja doesnt have Utsusemi Ni in stock at 37 you are smart to leave the party. No need to waste time with that kinda party.
 
I did disband from the party but I was the only one and I shouldn't have had to do that. The party leader was fully aware the ninja did not have Utsusemi: Ni, that he could not hold hate nor would he allow me to SATA on him, but instead he chose to keep the useless ninja because a useless ninja is better than no ninja... And at the end of the day, I was still 37 and he was 39. It gets me that people refuse to do something about the bad players so they won't improve because they are too afraid to lose out on experience. Then when they get higher levels they cannot even grasp why so many people cannot play their own jobs. If you refuse to fix the problem then it won't go away. Someone is not going to magically tell every bad player how to get better when you have the perfect opportunity and won't do it yourself.

I just think people, expecially party leaders, need to take a more active role in helping players improve and when they refuse to improve, do something drastic. I don't mean to get mean and down right nasty to people but tell them nicely. Give a suggestion here and there until they improve. If you got a blm who won't stop over nuking, let him get smacked around a bit until he learns his limits because sometimes thats the only way but don't just watch him die too.
 
Hecate said:
Lavi said:
First off, you are the idiots for not saying anything. How is this person an idiot if no one is willing to teach him or her how to play the job properly? You expect them to magically figure out everything on their own when most everyone in this game has asked others about one fact or another at some point in the game?

For the past 10 levels or so, I have begun to expect almost nothing from a party. Everyone knows that you'll run into a person who's a complete jackass and/or completely stupid. I have never had a static, so I've seen my share of idiotic players.

However, I am the type of person who likes to be left alone when it comes to playing my job, for the most part. 99% of the time I keep refresh and haste on those who need it as well as dispel on the mobs who need it. Very rarely do I miss a dispel or refresh, and I've grown tired of getting shouted at by people who think the mob needs a dispel, but actually doesn't -- and by BLMs or DRKs who want a refresh but are at the end of my cycle while I'm just starting to refresh myself.

So I came to the decision of if they leave me alone with my job, I won't harrass someone else on theirs.

Just my side of it.

Ditto. Unless I'm doing a lot of backup curing or I'm in the middle of a cast on an enfeeble that's dropped, I'll be casting on you right as your Refresh wears off. I rarely speak at all, unless I'm reminding the WHM to use Bar- spells (it's sad that I have to) and Flash every time a NIN's shadows drop and their casting is being interrupted. I've given up on getting DRKs and BLMs to use Stun when a gobbie gets ready to toss a bomb.
 
I wasn't really referring to people who miss a simple bar spell, forget stun or miss a dispel. I meant more along the lines of people who cannot understand SATA defeating the whole purpose of a theif, a red mage who does not want to enfeeble or refresh, rangers and black mages who cannot grasp the concept of hate and want to tank, and other things where it makes a huge impact on the party. Simply put, the people the entire party knows is not doing their job but people are too afraid to say anything about because they do not want to lose experience, hurt someone's feelings or get yelled at by someone else. I think if the biggest thing you have to worry about is someone forgetting to stun (sometimes its hard for a blm since they are mid cast) or a white mage not casting bar spells, you are very lucky.

Not saying anything in those circumstances is a problem. I hate to put it like this but, its like getting a new puppy. When the puppy pees on the carpet and you do nothing about it, they will not learn that it is incorrect behavior and will continue to pee on the carpet. How can they learn if you do not tell them? Simply put they cannot. Granted humans have a much larger capacity for learning and can go to outside sources like Allakhazam to find to more about their jobs, but we all know for a fact a majority of people do not do that. I implore you do not just be quiet, as you are only allowing this to continue and forcing someone else to take your place when you leave. If you speak up and the person gets mad at you, whats the worst that could happen? They ignore you and leave or maybe never party with you again? Is that really a bad thing... ?
 
It's not much to complain about until you realize a large part of my job is MP management and those simple spells will help everyone save hundreds of MP in the long run, especially if they're coupled with Regen II (another spell I have to call out since it seems be used rather infrequently). A properly managed SATA will certainly save everyone some grief and mana, but I haven't had that issue in a party in a long time now. (Yeah, I've been lucky.) As for BLMs and RNGs who feel like tanking, I let them take their lumps hoping they'll learn their lesson.

I'm paying attention to the back row and looking out for messages about enfeebling spells that have dropped. I'll cure as needed and serve as a second burst if the party makeup allows me the luxury, but the issues in the front are largely their issues to work out. I'm likely to have their actions filtered out if I'm not helping nuke anyway.

There comes a point where you're not a "new puppy" anymore, even if you haven't grasped your job yet. I'm not going to hang out in the back and teach little Johnny taru the ABCs of his job and the value of some cheap spells that seemed rather puzzling early on. His AF tells me he's not likely to change any time soon. I've left parties before. I'm sure I'll leave them again. You can't teach an old dog new tricks.
 
I've always been one of those easy-going party members who'll try to stick with a party no matter how bad it is. Knowing I could just throw my hands up in disbelief and get another party is nice, but it's something I almost never do. If it's really bad, I'll give them an hour's warning. I usually did that because I didn't want to be a hardass.

But leveling BLM in the jungle, the leader got a Lv 30 WAR to tank, and the WAR had a Lv 12 WHM sub. Yeah, I was in shock. I pointed it out to the leader, who was equally horrified he hadn't noticed. He was ready to kick the WAR, but I said "Wait, let's ask. He might not realize he's got the wrong sub."

The WAR said "WHM is the only subjob I have."

So I said "No way. I don't trust you to tank. Come back when you've leveled MNK." The WAR started to get pissy, but the leader was already booting him.

It felt good to call someone on their bullshit. I spent a lot of BLM time coaching assorted WHMs on ways to improve their jobs, and most of them were receptive to advice. But you get a few who don't want to hear it, and I don't like seeing those people make progress.

I'm still not a hardass, but I can tell my tolerance is starting to fade.
 
Back
Top