Not a flame. But will turn into one I assure you..

[jender]

Fellina - I had the SAME experience upon making my character - I wanted to be Elvaan...I like magic...so - yeah. When I have the gil I am all about buying things necessary to make up for the fact that I am an elvaan mage. No questions asked. And, I feel that I am pretty damned good at my job(s) - and am sexy as hell w/ my pointy ears <3 :twisted:

I don't believe in gimped races - I believe in gimped players.

 

[Mishaela]

Fellina - I had the SAME experience upon making my character - I wanted to be Elvaan...I like magic...so - yeah. When I have the gil I am all about buying things necessary to make up for the fact that I am an elvaan mage. No questions asked. And, I feel that I am pretty damned good at my job(s) - and am sexy as hell w/ my pointy ears <3 :twisted:

I don't believe in gimped races - I believe in gimped players.

I didn't know much about stats myself....right now my WHM has 719mp...I wonder to this day if my mp is crap or not ;-;
Aaaaand I dunno how good of a whm I am...I get party requests when anon+not-seeking so I must be doing somethin right..

 

[alanon]

If I see one more elvaan RDM I'm gonna puke.....


/em waits for the "Hey man Im not a cookiecutter, i pay 13 bucks a month, its my game, I do what I want!" responses from all around...


Bah I will party with them since it's such a growing fad to be an elvaan RDM :roll: but I will definately be more picky and notice more when they screw up or run out of mp as a whm or blm compared to my cherished taru mages whom I lubbb so much! ^^

I actually dont mind elveen Rdm at all. High Mnd helps with enfeebles and cures, which is really the Rdm's Job (aside from refresh, dispell, etc). I have never had an MP problem with an Elv Rdm. Sure I've seen plenty of bad Rdm's, but they were not race/gender related.

Me? I choose a Blonde Hume because it looks like me. Sometimes as Blm I wish I was a taru, but I never have a resistance or MP problem and whenever I play another job, Im glad I am hume.

 

[Devi]

Well Phraust...why didn't you go Mithra? XD

I remember at the NA release I played a few differnt characters....and in the end decided I wanted to be a Taru DRG (HAHAHAHHAAA) so I started WAR. Every PT I would get crap, or asked why I didn't pick a more melee oriented race. Well I can't mage, really, it's like I'm allergic or something. So I stuck to melee, and while you may say we're onely "66% effective" each race has their streagths and weaknesses for each job...

I hate to take the "It's my game I pay 13 bucks a month for it" stance but that's what it comes down to, I like my race/job combo, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

 

[Sneakypants]

Every race can play every job. Pluses an minuses from the get go, but things change with party variations and equipment choices as well.

There are good players and bad players.



People that send tells imposing their viewpoints suck eggs and like it.
When they were growing up, they never got smacked or were told to shut their pie holes...They should have though. Now, when someone tells them to shut it, they get all offended.
Keep your nose where it belongs, and you won't piss anyone off.

 

[alanon]

Well Phraust...why didn't you go Mithra? XD
.

Im not positive, but I think he just may be a mithra....

 

[Phraust]

Actually I will just throw this in right at this point.

Three of the Best Redmages I have ever Partied with were Galka Red Mages.

But I also know Red Mage was designed with Combat in mind. You can look at your average Hume Red Mage any time during an exp party and no matter what, they always have 1/2mp untill they start patching holes in the healing duties towards the end of a chain. But I never seen any Red Mage Drop below 2/3mp ever, unless they were burning mp just to convert.

 

[Devi]

Well Phraust...why didn't you go Mithra? XD
.

Im not positive, but I think he just may be a mithra....

Phraust = Hume

 

[alanon]

Well Phraust...why didn't you go Mithra? XD
.

Im not positive, but I think he just may be a mithra....

Phraust = Hume

My bad. The one time I partied with him, he blinked so much from eq macros, I swore I saw a tail.....

 

[Jezza]

MAN...perfectly good sarcasm...buried..now I'm depressed...

 

[Devi]

Poor Jezza....it was funny though....
/subs in for Jen. :twisted:

 

[Phraust]

Well Phraust...why didn't you go Mithra? XD
.

Im not positive, but I think he just may be a mithra....

Phraust = Hume

My bad. The one time I partied with him, he blinked so much from eq macros, I swore I saw a tail.....

lol

...

Yeah I tend to do that...

It's funny being the one with Treasure Hunter II and being the only one that can't hold anything in theirt inventory because I carry way too much equiptment...

None the less, I still get Mithra Envy, and My 'Ubermule' that I am working on is indeed Mithra. When it comes to Melee, all the races are relatively interchangeable. Yes, you might do 30 Damage less on a SATA, but you do an extra point or two of damage on each normal attack. I picked Hume because I didn't really know what I wanted to do. And Knew eventually I might want to try out mage classes. But... For my Future plans, I have inadvertantly picked the best race for my Goals.

The following Arguement is the one that gets me:

"An Elvaan Mage can be just as good as a Hume or even a Taru mage if wearing the right equiptment."

The Problem with the above statement is that it is as true as it is false.
Yes if, for instance, you were a level 10 Elvaan whm, you could have as much, if not more MP as a standard Taru, if you wear, let's say, an Astral Ring or two. But, the catch is, that the same taru, can ALSO wear the Astral Rings, making them even more of an asset.

The Next Arument is as equally interesting:

"It all comes down to skill, you have to be really good to be a Galka or Elvaan Mage."

Unfortunately this is not totally true. There are lots of Melee, and very little in the way of Mages. Even a Horrible mage levels, because people need ANYTHING.
Example:
I was Partying in Gustave Tunnel with a WHM that refused to use a Light or Dark Staff because they didn't want to do any of the following (Highlighted the most impotant ones):
-Didn't want to make an Equipment Macro.
-Thought they were pointless bullshit Items.
-Didn't want to lose thier shield.
-Didn't want to give up their shield because they didn't want to lose the defense.
-Didn't want to give up the hammer when they wanted to melee.

The above dipshit had on full AF, and was wearing aside from their AF maybe +4 Mind, and no +MP gear. Now aside from the fact that they didn't have a dark staff, he still ran out of MP all the time, and only used the high level cure spells.

"I am a taru, I don't need +MP equiptment."
"We have a redmage, I don't need to rest."
"I heal MP just fine, ever hear of 'Clear Mind' n00b?"

This Same Whm was the one that was constantly fucking up my SATA by casting Cure IV on me when I came in from a pull, or cast Cure IV several times on the Dragoon when we were trying to settup for SATA and the Dragoon got hit a little while we waited for the PLD to settup, and REFUSED to cast Haste on me.

The above Whm is now level 75.
And I saw him still with his shield. The same level 20 shield he was wearing 20 levels ago...

I know a BLM that got to lvl 50 wearing little to nothing, and most of what he wore was mining gear....

So no... It's not about Skill. It's about Need.

 

[Sindarkus]

i don't know how much of your original argument was supported in the above, but i will respond to this:

Unfortunately this is not totally true. There are lots of Melee, and very little in the way of Mages. Even a Horrible mage levels, because people need ANYTHING.

i've seen horrible lotsofstuff lvl, just because... well, no reason, really. i would replace that with whatever class you are, but i honestly have no idea what that would be. i want to say rng from the mithra comment, thf maybe, but it really doesn't matter. i also watch lvl 50+ shout for pt in jeuno now. you didn't say what race the whm in your party was, but just from the comments it could have been taru, galka, elvaan, whatever. just because someone plays a race not 'suited' for their job, doesn't mean they don't understand the importance of game mechanics.

if you, or anyone else, choose to party and lvl with people that cannot play or refuse to play their job correctly, then that really has little impact on the thread's original subject. what we're trying to decide now is if skill > race, and perhaps where equipment fits into that formula. i've partied with taru blms that couldn't hold a candle to someone that actually plays blm correctly ('hey, a crab! fire!!!' etc). however, i've partied with taru plds and nins that could hold hate with the best of them (just chose taru for the mage impact).

None the less, 70 lvls from an elvaan blm, 37 of whm, and 25 of smn say any race can do any job, if done correctly. personal experience, of course.

When it comes to Melee, all the races are relatively interchangeable.

and it just blows me away how hyprecritical that statement really is.

as a side note, does a lvl 10 taru whm even have the hp for two astrals? and races weren't given RSE and RSE2 just for looks.

 

[Phraust]

i don't know how much of your original argument was supported in the above, but i will respond to this:

Unfortunately this is not totally true. There are lots of Melee, and very little in the way of Mages. Even a Horrible mage levels, because people need ANYTHING.

i've seen horrible lotsofstuff lvl, just because... well, no reason, really. i would replace that with whatever class you are, but i honestly have no idea what that would be. i want to say rng from the mithra comment, thf maybe, but it really doesn't matter. i also watch lvl 50+ shout for pt in jeuno now. you didn't say what race the whm in your party was,...

"I am a taru, I don't need +MP equiptment."

It was infered I appologize...

...but just from the comments it could have been taru, galka, elvaan, whatever. just because someone plays a race not 'suited' for their job, doesn't mean they don't understand the importance of game mechanics.

if you, or anyone else, choose to party and lvl with people that cannot play or refuse to play their job correctly, then that really has little impact on the thread's original subject...

On the contrary, I was stating an example for the arguement that skill matters. It was a point that even a properly designed race/job combination can succeed based soley on thier job, and not their skill.

...what we're trying to decide now is if skill > race, and perhaps where equipment fits into that formula. i've partied with taru blms that couldn't hold a candle to someone that actually plays blm correctly ('hey, a crab! fire!!!' etc). however, i've partied with taru plds and nins that could hold hate with the best of them (just chose taru for the mage impact).

That is not at all what we are trying to decide here. More to come...

None the less, 70 lvls from an elvaan blm, 37 of whm, and 25 of smn say any race can do any job, if done correctly. personal experience, of course.

When it comes to Melee, all the races are relatively interchangeable.

and it just blows me away how hyprecritical that statement really is.

Again to the contrary. The post was simpley a question that was:

Why would you choose a race that would only be 66% effective for a job?

When it comes to Melee jobs, the difference between the races stats are negligable. The difference between a hume thief at 75 and a Mithra Thief at 75 is 8 Dex/8 Agi roughly, in favor of the Mithra, and 4 or so Str in favor of the Hume. The difference is less than 5% of the total relevant stats for the job class. And the same goes for most other Melee, where the benefits/flaws of each race are pretty balanced; where you have more accuracy, on one race you sacrifice for strength on another race, etc..

But in the case of a Elvaan or Galka, the Difference in stats that are relevant to the job are greatly offset. Well equiped Hume can have 800 MP at lvl 60, an Elvaan at the same level struggles to top out 600, with an MP decay of 150MP/Fight(Recovery included) that leaves chain 5 out of the question. Making your group 20% less effective based just on time. When you equate that into the Chain bonus, it looks even more grim...

Assume:
Fight #1: 200
Fight #2: 220
Fight #3: 240
Fight #4: 260
Fight #6: 300 <== This is what you are missing, 100 Free Exp.

Assume each fight takes 60 seconds::
Assume each resting period is 120 seconds:

Hume Group: 8 Minutes = 1,220 Exp (1 set of 5, 1 rest)
Elvaan Group: 7 Minutes = 920 Exp (1 set of 4, 1 rest)

So in an hour:

Hume group: 7.5 Rounds: 9,150 exp
Elvaan Group: 8.6 Rounds: 7,912 exp
Delta: 14% or 1,238exp.

as a side note, does a lvl 10 taru whm even have the hp for two astrals? and races weren't given RSE and RSE2 just for looks.

Yes, but they are left with I think 31 HP lol. Taru Summoners are worse...

 

[Bigboy]

One other thing that should be noted as to how equipment can be used to offset dfferences:

At level 10:
The importance of a mage's MND and INT are overshadowed by the need for MP. In these levels having another cure available is much more important than getting a cure that cures 1 more point than it is supposed to. THe elvaan make better healers because of their MND argument is bunk, every WHM should know that they aren't constatly throwing out their strongest cures and therefor you are not benefiting from the MND the way they could. This is ignoring the fact that the hightened MND does not make up for having the extra MP to cure another 6 times....

Putting astrals into the computation, a Taru would probably not wear them due to the 1-hit issues involved with them at this level, but I have been wearing them since the Jungle with my WHM. At level 10 though I was wearing Saintly Ring +1s, so not only would I completely dwarf other's MP pool, but my MND far exceeded their's as well. It is because a Taru's MP pool is totally unproportional to the stats they are lacking compared to other races that kinda makes it a moot point.

Skill level (Not player skill, but actual skill levels, ei: Healing skill) makes the most difference in ability, and that is completely unaffected by race, so that leaves the real differences not so much in the stats as it does in the HP/MO differences. I have noticed that the 6MND or 6INT I don't have while wearing my astrals makes almost no visible difference. I would rather be safe than sorry and I never keep myself in the realm where the astrals mean anything durring an XP party with my RDM, but it is just something I have noticed before. Therefor, not even gear plays that big of a role when you are talking about mages in comparison to melee. The most important part of a mage is visible in the magic skill box and what you can see in the HP/MP box in your party list.


All that being said, gear does make the difference for alot of things, dont take anything I said as a licence to go out and play your job nekkid or anything like that, but my intention is mostly just to say that having high mnd doesn't mean squat without the MP to cast a spell, just as having the gear to boost a taru's STR through the roof means mothing when they get 1-hit by an AOE. :roll:

 

[Bigboy]

I know a BLM that got to lvl 50 wearing little to nothing, and most of what he wore was mining gear....

That reminds me I need to get my mining gear back from Ximon. :lol: [/quote]

 

[Cooljay]

This Same Whm was the one that was constantly fucking up my SATA by casting Cure IV on me when I came in from a pull, or cast Cure IV several times on the Dragoon when we were trying to settup for SATA and the Dragoon got hit a little while we waited for the PLD to settup, and REFUSED to cast Haste on me

Phraust, only us COOL people, as well as other THF's :lol: , know how pissed you can get when someone messes up your SATA + VB, or whatever you use. In my experiences missing 1 of those in a battlle fucks up everything. Or Loses chains. Some WHM's will never learn as well as other Melee classes how hard THF is

 

[Direwolf]

I have noticed the majority of mages with craptastic gear tend to be Tarus, when I comment upon this they usualy have the opinion that their race is so good at what it does that they do not need earings or rings. Maybe I am crazy but most of the post 50 mages I have seen that truely suck have been Taru-Taru, when ppl bitch about mages I usualy ask their Name and Race, more often then not I hear so and so and s/he is a taru.

But why would someone elect to be a Galka WHM? No idea maybe they started as a Warrior, I did and changed my mind 10 lvls into it, that is one of the reasons I love Hume, we can do any job and no one will give us crap about it.

Race leads to base advantages but a properly equiped person with skill can overcome their races shortcomings, can that same person with the same gear do a far better job on a more apropriate race? Probaly but hey w/e.

 

[Sindarkus]

On the contrary, I was stating an example for the arguement that skill matters. It was a point that even a properly designed race/job combination can succeed based soley on thier job, and not their skill.

whether it's as tired as i am, or if it's just not that clear, i can't figure out if you meant you agreed that skill was more important than race, or otherwise. i would say you do, but the second half of the above quotation makes me think otherwise.

But in the case of a Elvaan or Galka, the Difference in stats that are relevant to the job are greatly offset. Well equiped Hume can have 800 MP at lvl 60, an Elvaan at the same level struggles to top out 600, with an MP decay of 150MP/Fight(Recovery included) that leaves chain 5 out of the question. Making your group 20% less effective based just on time. When you equate that into the Chain bonus, it looks even more grim...

nice on paper, but are you trying to tell me i've never hit chain 5? or 6? or 7, for that matter? chain 7 is the highest i've gotten to date, and surprisingly it wasn't even a canon party. it's was my first group after having finished genkai 1. pretty fun, although the leader was a bit bossy ><

but anyway, it's fun to quote these figures, and compare these stats, but what everything i've been trying to say has come down to the fact that a race not fit for a certain job can work. i've been in groups to get 6k an hour, and then i've been in groups that looked awesome on paper, but just sucked once we got to camp. i've come to decide that play styles can differ, and that's really what i blame that sort of thing on. if i was so gimp for having chosen elvaan, people wouldn't invite me. it's not like there's a shortage of blms at my lvl - enough to have a few canon parties going, some in normal groups, and still more seeking. i can't run through lower jeuno without seeing set upon set of blm af.

and just sort of off topic, would something like, say, a galkan thf or taru mnk fit into...

On the contrary, I was stating an example for the arguement that skill matters. It was a point that even a properly designed race/job combination can succeed based soley on thier job, and not their skill.

i only ask because i don't know the location of a stat calculator or anything like that, but maybe you could tell me.

but in answer to the question 'why did you choose...' i'll be happy to answer. i chose to play an elvaan blm because i wanted to. simple as that. it wasn't some rash decision i made the day the game came out, either. i played in the beta, and as the exact same character i play now. i knew what i was getting into when i did it. if you chose not to party with me for it, fine. i don't know what lvl you are, and thfs are often viewed as sort of obsolete at my lvl, so it doesn't really impact me personally much. i guess if you wanted to you could refuse groups that aren't cookie cutter types, though.

there are a ton of elvaan blm now. i used to be unique, but i've helped with enough blm AF to see otherwise. nothing wrong with that, i think it's fun.

 

[Sindarkus]

by the way, this isn't the first time that people have had this argument.

This is why questions like these are pointless. This game has built a system that allows any race to perform any job up to 75. Is one race more challenging than another? Absolutely. It isn't impossible however. Take a look around this site and you will find all the neccessary info to perform your job no matter what race you pick. Happy nuking!