Numo

Thnikkaman said:
From what it looks like to me, he's showing just what the formation looks like. He's showing the people and the way they're facing.

<First 'Voke>> <<Monster> <<Main Tank> <<Thief>

(Bolded triangle-parentheses are the way the person is facing)
Click to expand...
Um... they didn't bold, just get bigger. Let me try that again. Sorry for double-post.

<First 'Voke>> <<Monster> <<Main Tank> <<Thief>

In this case- the RED coloured parentheses are the way the person is facing.
 
Thnikkaman said:
From what it looks like to me, he's showing just what the formation looks like. He's showing the people and the way they're facing.

<First 'Voke>> <<Monster> <<Main Tank> <<Thief>

(Bolded triangle-parentheses are the way the person is facing)
Click to expand...


FYI that was a joke. If i didnt know that as a 74 DRK I would ask you politely to shoot me.
 
Mistra said:
Bro, what in the hell are you talking about.
Do you know how a DD ninja @ 75 tanks? Lately more and more have become accustomed to the styling of it, and quite frankly, you obviously havent spent much time looking into it, because a ninja at 75 equipped for high DD and DPS results doesnt give a flying fuck about multiple evasion stacking items during EXP. So long as he's hasted, and the katanas are flying, a well equipped ninjas DPS is hard to beat.
Lemme fill you in on somethin, damage is part of how a good DD ninja tanks, you hold hate by dishing out damage.
Lowering your delay, and keeping haste on yourself helps greatly with this.
For one, next time you are on, take a look at my setup, most people will tell you, its a goddamn good DPS setup for tanking.

From my viewpoint, having actually played ninja up til 75, man, during EXP, i truly could care less about stacking the shit out of my evasion, it goes too fast, what i'd rather do, is nab a haste, swing like fucking crazy, use my TP, enfeeb with kurayami, and hojo, voke twice, and hate is set. Taking a couple hits never hurt anybody, and during exp when I do get hit in a fight, its once or twice maximum.
I will not toot my own horn here, but damnit man, before ya go and say some stupid shit like that, know what the fuck you are talking about.
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a well equipped war will out dps you, a well equipped rng will out dps you a well equipped monk will out dps you a well equipped blm on a tank that can hold hate in a *short* run will out dps you (blm mp constraints prevent blm from being optimal dps with a long run, keeps the chains far below monk cannons anyhow... chain #28 was pretty good for anything though.) A dark who's using the delay bug and has exceptional gear can toss out exceptional amounts of damage. nin can use quite a lot of decent RATT and RACC (though i've noticed ninja throwing seems to have less racc issues than rngs) gear which no ninja tanking would be wearing.

ps, as a note to anyone who doesn't care, my everything hurts in the everywhere right now, damn the army.
 
Gonna back Mistra on this, a NIN doent give a fuck if they get out damaged, it's to help hold hate. Period. Now please stop talking like you know half a shit about the fucking job.
 
Mistra said:
Bro, what in the hell are you talking about.
Do you know how a DD ninja @ 75 tanks? Lately more and more have become accustomed to the styling of it, and quite frankly, you obviously havent spent much time looking into it, because a ninja at 75 equipped for high DD and DPS results doesnt give a flying fuck about multiple evasion stacking items during EXP. So long as he's hasted, and the katanas are flying, a well equipped ninjas DPS is hard to beat.
Lemme fill you in on somethin, damage is part of how a good DD ninja tanks, you hold hate by dishing out damage.
Lowering your delay, and keeping haste on yourself helps greatly with this.
For one, next time you are on, take a look at my setup, most people will tell you, its a goddamn good DPS setup for tanking.

From my viewpoint, having actually played ninja up til 75, man, during EXP, i truly could care less about stacking the shit out of my evasion, it goes too fast, what i'd rather do, is nab a haste, swing like fucking crazy, use my TP, enfeeb with kurayami, and hojo, voke twice, and hate is set. Taking a couple hits never hurt anybody, and during exp when I do get hit in a fight, its once or twice maximum.
I will not toot my own horn here, but damnit man, before ya go and say some stupid shit like that, know what the fuck you are talking about.
Click to expand...

NIns my second job to 75, my point is, you roll enmity and evasion you can tank anything by yourself, I've seen tooooo many DD setup NINs go down like a bitch before the mob is down to 70% w/ evasion and enmity you're going to get hit less often, and hold hate fine, if youre worried about DD then you take away from the other areas of being a tank. sure you wanna see big numbers when you do a WS, go be a thf,drk,mnk,yadda,yadda. leave the tanking to the people that don't need a backup.

I'm not saying you can't tank w/ a DD setup, you're just going to get cured more often, and if the whm ain't fast you're ass is going to die. w/ evasion +enmity you're going to get hit far far less often

I'm not talking about exp, you can do pretty much anything in xp as nin and come out the same result, I'm atlking the high mobs that tear through you, I'm not talking about tanking weapons in sky.

there are setups you can do as nin haste/haste haste/evasion enmity/-phsy dmg enmity/haste and any combination of those, DD doesn't need to be the top on your list as a damn nin, that sounds like a pld thinking they need all out attack so they can tank well. just cuase my Jins do 80dmg and some DD nin does 120 isn't going to effect much in the end. if you're ass does over 1k dmg on a god/hnm lemme know then I'll start thinking you can hold hate with that.

p.s. again on the 80 and 120 jins I'm not talking about weapons we can all do 700+ on those. I'm talking about harder mobs.
 
Arylias said:
Gonna back Mistra on this, a NIN doent give a fuck if they get out damaged, it's to help hold hate. Period. Now please stop talking like you know half a shit about the fucking job.
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so instead of going str earring, go +enmity earring you'll see a huge diff w/ the +3 enmity then the extra 1 per attack and extra 4 on WS dmg.
now please stop talking like you know half a shit about the fucking job.
 
sure i know mobs will miss at times and play it the way you want to. I equip a bit of a bit and do well the way i work it. I deal out DMG and tank at the same time. If i noticed i can tank without all that evasion then i may as well put in some str and atk gear right?


This is how i went and it worked out well.

before you lash out at me i know evasion is useful but i prefer to hit a little harder. Evasion earrring + str rings and i'm set. oh and a nomad mantle with emp pin. At this point in time 6 agi would't matter much i would think. Even if it did i was doing fairly well without it and hit just a bit harder.

I just took the basic idea that ninja was meant to DD. Although they are a great tank and somehat of a weaker DD they can still dish out pretty well.

I dunno where this is going but no flame here. Just a useful thought to take into consideration.
 
UnphaZeD said:
NIns my second job to 75, my point is, you roll enmity and evasion you can tank anything by yourself, I've seen tooooo many DD setup NINs go down like a bitch before the mob is down to 70% w/ evasion and enmity you're going to get hit less often, and hold hate fine, if youre worried about DD then you take away from the other areas of being a tank. sure you wanna see big numbers when you do a WS, go be a thf,drk,mnk,yadda,yadda. leave the tanking to the people that don't need a backup.

I'm not saying you can't tank w/ a DD setup, you're just going to get cured more often, and if the whm ain't fast you're ass is going to die. w/ evasion +enmity you're going to get hit far far less often

I'm not talking about exp, you can do pretty much anything in xp as nin and come out the same result, I'm atlking the high mobs that tear through you, I'm not talking about tanking weapons in sky.

there are setups you can do as nin haste/haste haste/evasion enmity/-phsy dmg enmity/haste and any combination of those, DD doesn't need to be the top on your list as a damn nin, that sounds like a pld thinking they need all out attack so they can tank well. just cuase my Jins do 80dmg and some DD nin does 120 isn't going to effect much in the end. if you're ass does over 1k dmg on a god/hnm lemme know then I'll start thinking you can hold hate with that.

p.s. again on the 80 and 120 jins I'm not talking about weapons we can all do 700+ on those. I'm talking about harder mobs.
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You say this like I dont know Unphazed. I've been around the block with ninja, and have a groove I have set in for exp, against any mob.
Ulegurand Range is the place of choice, or even golems in sky near the celestial nexus, any person who has partied with me knows what I do works well, I tank without a backup tank, because I dont need it. I play the damn job well, I think I can vouch for myself here when I posted that original post.
 
Dragon Ryder said:
sure i know mobs will miss at times and play it the way you want to. I equip a bit of a bit and do well the way i work it. I deal out DMG and tank at the same time. If i noticed i can tank without all that evasion then i may as well put in some str and atk gear right?


This is how i went and it worked out well.

before you lash out at me i know evasion is useful but i prefer to hit a little harder. Evasion earrring + str rings and i'm set. oh and a nomad mantle with emp pin. At this point in time 6 agi would't matter much i would think. Even if it did i was doing fairly well without it and hit just a bit harder.

I just took the basic idea that ninja was meant to DD. Although they are a great tank and somehat of a weaker DD they can still dish out pretty well.

I dunno where this is going but no flame here. Just a useful thought to take into consideration.
Click to expand...

it's good to have a happy medium, I was pretty much flaming the ones that go all DD because they think they can run in the same leagues w/ other DDs. and in doing so they take away from actually doing their job, just drives me crazy when I see some nin loaded on attack and dies within the first few min. because he can't hang. all the while screaming they need to do more dmg to hold hate.
 
Mistra said:
You say this like I dont know Unphazed. I've been around the block with ninja, and have a groove I have set in for exp, against any mob.
Ulegurand Range is the place of choice, or even golems in sky near the celestial nexus, any person who has partied with me knows what I do works well, I tank without a backup tank, because I dont need it. I play the damn job well, I think I can vouch for myself here when I posted that original post.
Click to expand...

again, XP mobs is a totally differnet story, I can tank that shit nakkid and never get hit. DD setup for those is fine, cause it really doesn't matter what you're wearing.
 
How about the white mage that partied with Mistra from level 70 to 75 speak up. Oh... that'd happen to be me. /blush

I honestly can not say how awesome a ninja Mistra is. His ass pwns mobs. The problem is, a lot of you are placing too much responsibility on a Ninja to never get hit. That'd make for some boring times as a whm. If the status queu for Ninja was to never get hit, they wouldn't need a white mage in their parties. That being said, Mistra still only got hit when the stupid Demons used Condemnation with no shadows up ><;.

We didn't have an awesome 'ninja' party either. Monk, Warrior, Ninja, Black mage, Bard, and White Mage. Did Mistra lose hate? Of course he did. It is easy to lose hate when the best damned monk in the game and the best Warrior in the game are hitting unresisted Dark skillchains in excess of 800 & 900 on Demons + incredible Magic Bursts by Vivikun(back when we worried about skill chaining). Usually though, the mobs didn't last longer than 2 seconds after that went down however.

Someone said when you look at the whm and they have more than 1k MP, you are doing your job well. Yes, that is a good indicator of your performance, but that also means the magic that could be used to help the party is just sitting there. You are not exploiting the full balance of your party. If you could trade 200 MP/fight for about 300 more damage(rough guess, so sue me), that is better than just letting it go to waste. I always kept my MP above 400 hitting chain 6 & 7s.

I think evasion gear becomes less and less important the higher into Ninja you go. The more gear you have that increases your damage, the better the chance a ninja has of keeping hate. IMO +enmity gear is useless when there is an alternative that helps with hate and contributes to killing a mob faster.
 
2 notes to above post.

1.) I also attempted to Dia II all mobs, and haste all melee. It reaaallly increases DoT.

2.) My post had nothing to do with the initial post of this topic, I just felt it would help clarify str vs. eva and to help Mistra out - cause he really is the greatest person I know @ Ninja.

Early Levels EVA onry.
Later levels freedom of choice. EVA w/thief, STR w/out, whatever works
 
Arctyrael said:
2 notes to above post.

1.) I also attempted to Dia II all mobs, and haste all melee. It reaaallly increases DoT.

2.) My post had nothing to do with the initial post of this topic, I just felt it would help clarify str vs. eva and to help Mistra out - cause he really is the greatest person I know @ Ninja.

Early Levels EVA onry.
Later levels freedom of choice. EVA w/thief, STR w/out, whatever works
Click to expand...

Thanks Arc =)
 
Arctyrael please actually read Unphazed posts he says that you can wear attack gear or whatever you like for exp it doesn't matter. He is talking about gods and bigger mobs NOT EXP.
 
Then he shouldn't have posted under this topic - because Numo was clearly in an exp set-up.
 
Arctyrael said:
The more gear you have that increases your damage, the better the chance a ninja has of keeping hate. IMO +enmity gear is useless when there is an alternative that helps with hate and contributes to killing a mob faster.
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you need to know how much damage that +str +attack gear is actually doing to say a statement like that.

I've tried both, STR setup w/ everything from osode to flame rings to triumph earrings and you're damage does not go up a helluva whole lot, you'd be doing say 60 a hit instead of 50 w/ a really good attack setup, along with during weapon skills doing 900 instead of 700. how much hate do you think that keeps on you? now instead of running all that STR how about putting up another 8 or so Enmity, which one would you think would keep more hate, a LOT more hate.

now sence you are all worried so much about exp parties because I believe that's all you have experience with I'll go into what I did for exp.

not evasion, why? because I never could afford it I dont' even think I had a SH unless I was borrowing from a friend but it didn't matter because I always had friends like jonas and legalus and nocturnus at my side for exp and they just destroyed everything and I rarely tanked, we still rolled in 8-10k xp an hour... now what does that show you? you can do any setup and be perfectly fine if you can do your job half well and know how to count shadows.

there was something else I found baffeling too lemme look....

Arctyrael said:
Someone said when you look at the whm and they have more than 1k MP, you are doing your job well. Yes, that is a good indicator of your performance, but that also means the magic that could be used to help the party is just sitting there. You are not exploiting the full balance of your party. If you could trade 200 MP/fight for about 300 more damage(rough guess, so sue me), that is better than just letting it go to waste. I always kept my MP above 400 hitting chain 6 & 7s.
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yes of course, if it was an XP party I was worried about and my whm was always over 1k mps I would replace them with another DD, another DD is a lot more than 300dmg. but during gods and the like it's prolly a pretty good idea you have a whm on incase anything happens.

Arctyrael said:
We didn't have an awesome 'ninja' party either. Monk, Warrior, Ninja, Black mage, Bard, and White Mage. Did Mistra lose hate? Of course he did. It is easy to lose hate when the best damned monk in the game and the best Warrior in the game are hitting unresisted Dark skillchains in excess of 800 & 900 on Demons + incredible Magic Bursts by Vivikun(back when we worried about skill chaining). Usually though, the mobs didn't last longer than 2 seconds after that went down however.
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very good, thank you for agreeing with me in that it doesn't matter what setup you are using during XP because the monsters die too fast. :D

Arctyrael said:
Early Levels EVA onry.
Later levels freedom of choice. EVA w/thief, STR w/out, whatever works
Click to expand...

I've never used a thief in my XP parties, there was never a need because I never lost hate long enough for it to matter.

Arctyrael said:
My post had nothing to do with the initial post of this topic, I just felt it would help clarify str vs. eva and to help Mistra out - cause he really is the greatest person I know @ Ninja.
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yes you helped him out in saying that str setup doesn't matter in XP parties, Hey! I support him in that theory too! yay we agree

in closing I said in my first post and I've said it again to clarify, other people came here to stress what I was saying but lemme say again.
I DON'T CARE ABOUT XP PARTIES, USE WHATEVER CAUSE IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER.

so thank you for the post that didn't need to be :)
 
Arctyrael said:
Then he shouldn't have posted under this topic - because Numo was clearly in an exp set-up.
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1. I was defending why STR setups piss me off and are not needed, clearing stating that I was meaning HNM/Gods instead of xp parties.

2. the start of the post was about boyada tree which is an early level *pre-65 is early level* which in your eyes would be EVA onry.
 
I'm catching a sense of sarcasm - but meh. All STR setups have there value, but /equip macro's make the best ninjas. There are times when EVA > STR and times STR > EVA.

I didn't set out to attack anyone. Just saying i see the value behind a DD Tank.
 
Arctyrael said:
Then he shouldn't have posted under this topic - because Numo was clearly in an exp set-up.
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Hmmmmm

Originally Posted by Arctyrael
My post had nothing to do with the initial post of this topic.

So you can go a little of topic but no one else can. Just read the whole post before responding is all I ask.
 
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