NYC man gets 75 years for mugging 101-year-old

[Morcheeba]

From what i've been gathering the main argument/motivation being tossed around by "your side" for it being "ok" to sentence the man to such a ridiculous sentence has been that it's ok because the victim was old and therefore helpless.
My examples pointed out that the same amount of helplessness happens to several different types of victim regardless of age.

Assault is assault. At the end of the day it's still a person attacking another regardless of who it is as the helpless threshhold gets passed the second the attacker is winning. If the attacker loses does that mean they deserve a lesser sentence? They had the exact same intent to do the exact same crime and as such deserve the same exact punishment. Whether the attacker won of not is inconsequential except to the victim and/or any damages incurred for medical expenses.

In the end advocating extra years being added to a sentence(over the maximum for the proper charges for the case) simply because you dislike the crime is the same as ignoring that there are already "fair" sentences for the crime in place that can be given.

See this is where I strongly disagree.

Assault is not Assault.

1: a woman punching a man leaving a mere scratch because he called her a C**T

2: a woman punching a man to the point of near death for calling her a C**T

which is worse? You can slap the same name on the actions sure, but when the nature, end result and long term effects differ so significantly as does the varibles then no Assault is not Assualt. And in fact they are 2 very different situtions that call for 2 very different and carefully thought out punishments.

 

[Thelona]

Assault is assault.

this is where i disagree with you khajit, I dont agree that assault is assault regardless of the details.

Someone getting in a bar fight and kicking some guys ass cause he said something about his girlfriend IS NOT EQUAL to a man beating a 101 year old woman nearly to death.

when the assault is in such a barbaric, malicious, and voilent fashion, extra punishment is fitting.

2 guys.

1 guy overheres someone say something insulting about his wife in a bar, and proceeds to kick the guys ass. this is assault.

1 guy is walking down the street and see's a blind man walking down the street, he decided to rob this guy, and then just for kicks decided to kick the shit out of him ending in a curb stop, breaking the blind mans jaw and knocking out his teeth.

would you say these 2 assaults call for the same punishment?

 

[Khajit]

That's where attempted murder comes in. Attempted murder is attempted murder. Does it matter if the murderer sucks at doing it?
Was referring to morcheeb's post.
For thelona we have multiple degree's in the justice system to my knowlege. so they would still be convicted of assault but they would be convicted of the assault degree most relevant to the attempted or actual actions. So if in the curb stomp battle the blind guy pulled a stinkmeaner(boondocks) the assailant should still be charged just as harshly as if he had actually succeeded in the curb stomp.

 

[Morcheeba]

That's where attempted murder comes in. Attempted murder is attempted murder. Does it matter if the murderer sucks at doing it?

Attempted murder is where the accused is found to have tried at killing the victim.

Someone losing it and continually beating on someone may not actually be attempted murder. That may not be the intent at all. They may literally just want to use this person as a punching bag without clueing in they could potentially KILL the person.

And that's why there's manslaughter, when the 'unexpected' (give me a break) happens and the vic dies from their injuries.

E- if a woman really wanted to kill a man for calling her a C**T I highly highly highly doubt she would attempt to do so by punching him >.>

Just saying, it's not impossible, just extremely unlikely. She would probably pick up a weapon/instrument of sorts or wait for a better & more opportune time.

 

[Thelona]

That's where attempted murder comes in. Attempted murder is attempted murder. Does it matter if the murderer sucks at doing it?

no, because for attempted murder you have to prove that someone INTENDED to kill someone. which is the exact reason I'm guessing they didn't charge this guy with attempted murder.

tho i would like an answer to my question.

would you give the same sentence to a man that got in a bar fight, and a man who beat up and curb stopped a blind man?

they are both Assault.

 

[Khajit]

Attempted murder is where the accused is found to have tried at killing the victim.

Someone losing it and continually beating on someone may not actually be attempted murder. That may not be the intent at all. They may literally just want to use this person as a punching bag without clueing in they could potentially KILL the person.

And that's why there's manslaughter, when the 'unexpected' (give me a break) happens and the vic dies from their injuries.

Manslaugher is manslaughter yada yada. Fit the crime with what actually happened. Take what happened and fit it into the appropriate degree figured out for you by the law. In the end going over that becomes excessive punishment.
There's voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter. Voluntary is when you want to hurt the person and they endup killed as a result when you weren't trying to kill them. Involuntary is when its a compete accident an as such you cant get charged as it does not exist as a crime. Gross negligence does i suppose but that isn't relevant to the original case.
Why isnt attempted manslaughter a perfectly fine charge to be added to the list against him?

 

[Uzor]

Uzor mentioned no one being treated differently except for perhaps children.

I have often believed that the elderly are much like children. Not all are as dependent as others, but in cases such as this I think after a certain age they should be exceptions and considered exceptionally.

All of the elders I've met HATE when younger people treat them like children. They hate the baby-speak their relatives used when they talk to them, and they hate when their caretakers constantly ask them how they're feeling with a cutesy voice.

They're not children, and they deserve more respect then that.

this is where i disagree with you khajit, I dont agree that assault is assault regardless of the details.

Someone getting in a bar fight and kicking some guys ass cause he said something about his girlfriend IS NOT EQUAL to a man beating a 101 year old woman nearly to death.

when the assault is in such a barbaric, malicious, and voilent fashion, extra punishment is fitting.

2 guys.

1 guy overheres someone say something insulting about his wife in a bar, and proceeds to kick the guys ass. this is assault.

1 guy is walking down the street and see's a blind man walking down the street, he decided to rob this guy, and then just for kicks decided to kick the shit out of him ending in a curb stop, breaking the blind mans jaw and knocking out his teeth.

would you say these 2 assaults call for the same punishment?

Please do quote where it said he beat her nearly to death. It seem everyone on the "He deserves the punishment" side is of the opinion that he beat her nearly to death, but I see no evidence supporting this claim.

 

[Thelona]

it left her with broken cheek bones and eye socket. She easily could have died.

if you hit a 101 y.o woman hard enough to literally break her face that qualifies and nearly beating her to death imo.

 

[Morcheeba]

All of the elders I've met HATE when younger people treat them like children. They hate the baby-speak their relatives used when they talk to them, and they hate when their caretakers constantly ask them how they're feeling with a cutesy voice.

They're not children, and they deserve more respect then that.

I mean them no disrespect. And I personally do not speak to elder in baby or cutesy voices, that's actually quite absurd and ridiculous. I may practically yell at some if near deaf but I do not coo at them >.>

What I was saying is if you are going to group children in a catagory of their own based on a number of variables, you should also do so with the elderly.

Because we naturally weaken with age there should be a age in place where these crimes are treated differently when envolving someone of that age group.

 

[Khajit]

You hit anyone with enough force to break their face and they'd stand a chance at dying.
Human beings are fragile.
But anyway. so he hit her hard enough to possibly kill her.Attempted manslaughter at minimum or attempted murder is still a perfectly viable charge esp when it's on video to prove he didnt accidentally make her slip and bump her head on the floor. If he did that to any other human being that wasn't elderly he'd get the same sentence for attempted manslaughter.


As for the children part. Well children are alot more likely to be fucked up permanently and for a longer time as a result. Hence the actions against children in addition to our paternal/maternal instincts influencing this have much more severe long term effects and trauma making a harsher sentence more justifiable.

 

[Thelona]

Why isnt attempted manslaughter a perfectly fine charge to be added to the list against him?

I don't think attempted manslaughter is a real crime khajit. That would be what? Attempting to accidentally kill someone?

theres murder, killing someone on purpose
attempted murder, trying and failing to kill someone
and manslaughter, accidentally killing someone.
theres no attempting to accidentally kill someone.

 

[Khajit]

I don't think attempted manslaughter is a real crime khajit. That would be what? Attempting to accidentally kill someone?

You musta missed a previous edit. Manslaughter is hurting a person while not meaning to actually kill them(and they endup dead anyway) or attacking them in a rage etc and not stopping to think that it might kill them.
So attempted manslaughter is when you do the same thing but fail at killing them.(probably just barely) Attempting to "accidentally" kill someone would fall under attempted murder as you intended to kill them in the first place.
I think if he was attempting to actually murder her in cold blood he could have easily done something more effective given the "mile long rap-sheet" which undoubtedly shows some experience with inflicting maximum harm on a person.

You're thinking of involuntary manslaughter which isnt a crime as it's a total accident.
Damn these edit war's. we both have to backtrack to make sure the other side didnt say something we missed cause of an edit.

 

[Morcheeba]

You musta missed a previous edit. Manslaughter is hurting a person while not meaning to actually kill them(and they endup dead anyway) or attacking them in a rage etc and not stopping to think that it might kill them.
So attempted manslaughter is when you do the same thing but fail at killing them.(probably just barely) Attempting to "accidentally" kill someone would fall under attempted murder as you intended to kill them in the first place.
I think if he was attempting to actually murder her in cold blood he could have easily done something more effective given the "mile long rap-sheet" which undoubtedly shows some experience with inflicting maximum harm on a person.

You're thinking of involuntary manslaughter which isnt a crime as it's a total accident.
Damn these edit war's. we both have to backtrack to make sure the other side didnt say something we missed cause of an edit.

I agree. I think we're actually enjoying the discussion a little too much >.>

But does 'Attempted Manslaughter' exist? If it does than yea he should certainly have it slapped on the list of charges. The way you described it as a viable charge makes sense to me.

 

[Khajit]

According to people claiming 40 years of experience as a lawyer on yahoo questions it is.
found a case on wiki of a person charged with it.
On 24 August 2004, Matti Nykänen was arrested on suspicion of attempted manslaughter after the stabbing of a family friend. He was found guilty of aggravated assault and sentenced to a 26-month jail term on 27 October 2004. As a first-timer, he was released from jail on 21 September 2005. While on probation, he was re-arrested four days later for abusing his current life companion, Mervi Tapola. Nykänen was convicted again for four months on 16 March 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matti_Nykänen
26 months seems a little low but considering the guy was an Olympic gold medalist and looks to be the equivalent of micheal jordan or tiger woods in his sport i think he got some special treatment.

 

[Uzor]

What I was saying is if you are going to group children in a catagory of their own based on a number of variables, you should also do so with the elderly.

Because we naturally weaken with age there should be a age in place where these crimes are treated differently when envolving someone of that age group.

I put children in a category of their own for several reasons

1) They are our future
2) They have their whole life in front of them
3) It is easier to fuck them up for life

The list can go on, but those are the most important ones.

I'm sorry, but a 101 year-old have lived their life, and they don't have much to contribute to society anymore. It may sound harsh, but I weigh children as being more important both for the future of the world, and being worth more than other people.

Answer honestly; If you had to choose between killing a child or killing an elder, whom would you choose? For me, the option is quite obvious.

Its not a simple matter of who is the most fragile. There's a lot of other factors to take in to consideration.

Also, I don't think attempted manslaughter exists. Wouldn't that basically be the exact same thing as aggravated battery/aggravated assault?

 

[Morcheeba]

According to people claiming 40 years of experience as a lawyer on yahoo questions it is.

It's freakin hilarious how Thelona described it though. I have to admit I like it much better.

'Attempting to accidentally kill someone'

How could you really charge someone with this crime though?

 

[Thelona]

Manslaughter is hurting a person while not meaning to actually kill them(and they endup dead anyway) or attacking them in a rage etc and not stopping to think that it might kill them.
So attempted manslaughter is when you do the same thing but fail at killing them. .

I looked it up, only a couple states have "attempted manslaughter" in the books.

But regardless your sidestepping the issue. he wasn't charged with attempted murder. because theres no proof he had the intent of killing her. so it falls back on assault.

Does beating a 101 year old woman to the point her face breaks, call for the same punishment as someone getting in a bar fight?

I don't care if you think one is attempted manslaughter or attempted murder, the court labeled it as assault so that what we're going with.

Do you give the guy who got in a bar fight the same amount of time that a guy who beats up a 101 year old woman gets? I'm just trying to show theres a REASON why they give judges the authority to place different sentences for the same crime, based on the details of the crime.

our justice system isn't perfect and we don't have different names for 30 different types of assault. so therefor we have to use REASON and LOGIC to determine if one assault is worse then the other.

 

[Morcheeba]

I put children in a category of their own for several reasons

1) They are our future
2) They have their whole life in front of them
3) It is easier to fuck them up for life

The list can go on, but those are the most important ones.

I'm sorry, but a 101 year-old have lived their life, and they don't have much to contribute to society anymore. It may sound harsh, but I weigh children as being more important both for the future of the world, and being worth more than other people.

Answer honestly; If you had to choose between killing a child or killing an elder, whom would you choose? For me, the option is quite obvious.

Its not a simple matter of who is the most fragile. There's a lot of other factors to take in to consideration.

Also, I don't think attempted manslaughter exists. Wouldn't that basically be the exact same thing as aggravated battery/aggravated assault?

Fair enough, but we're not in the position where we have to choose between anyone. It's simply asking if perhaps the elderly SHOULD be treated differently because of their declining state. Senses, reactions, strength, their, the fact that they HAVE contributed possibly their whole life.

Do they not deserve to be treated with a little more respect?

 

[Uzor]

our justice system isn't perfect and we don't have different names for 30 different types of assault. so therefor we have to use REASON and LOGIC to determine if one assault is worse then the other.

Which is the problem, as a lot of judges aren't capable of reasoning without involving their feelings, which makes for biased sentences.

Fair enough, but we're not in the position where we have to choose between anyone. It's simply asking if perhaps the elderly SHOULD be treated differently because of their declining state. Senses, reactions, strength, their, the fact that they HAVE contributed possibly their whole life.

Do they not deserve to be treated with a little more respect?

Of course they do, but there's no law that states that elderly should be treated differently. There's a law that makes crimes towards children more serious than crimes towards adults, but there's no law stating that crimes towards elders should be treated differently. As such, the woman's age should not be taken in to consideration.

 

[Thelona]

damn this thread, its moving so fast by the time I'm done typing the discussion isn't anywhere near where it was when i started typing.