NYC man gets 75 years for mugging 101-year-old

[Morcheeba]

Of course they do, but there's no law that states that elderly should be treated differently. There's a law that makes crimes towards children more serious than crimes towards adults, but there's no law stating that crimes towards elders should be treated differently. As such, the woman's age should not be taken in to consideration.

Yet her age changes the nature of the crime does it not?

 

[Khajit]

Why do they deserve MORE respect? They simply deserve the same respect any other human being deserves. Don't disrespect a person because they're young, old, middle aged or whatever. Being old doesn't negate personality traits that would cause you to lose respect for the person.
If they're a rascist bastard who screams the N word, no repsect for them. If they served in ww2 etc and helped literally defend the world from evil itself more respect to them. If it was 5 years since WW2 or 80 they'd still deserve the same level of respect that entails.
To give some reference to a base level of respect im using I treat each person with a basic somewhat decent (i suppose) level of respect as there is no reason for me to ever be rude to them yet or possibly ever in the future. Be polite etc.

Children get more leniency because they're cute i guess nor would they realize how rude they're being(unless it's obvious they know exactly how they're acting) I still wouldn't hit em though not even thinking about the consequences of a batshit insane mother going after me for that when there have been people cursed out for telling them that their kid was "merely" robbing a store.

Is my general respect level for other people extra high or something?

 

[bigbroon]

Then perhaps what needs to happen is they drop the word 'Hate' in the crime itself and hand out the punishment (just as severe) for the blantant actions.

The punishment suits the crime. The punishment suits the crime. The punishement suits the crime.

Honest to god. The CHARGE may not, but the punishment suits the crime lol.

Things need to change in the justice system, MUCH needs to change. I'm not opposed to saying that calling this a Hate crime MAY be inaccurate, but not calling it one can be just as inaccurate.

Do away with 'Hate Crime' altogether and balls up with the sentences period.

Question time- if we're unsure whether this is a hate crime or not.. how does this man get punished?

My opinion is simple, I don't give a shit if he rots. Depending on the actions of an individual who commits a crime this haneous, why do we care so much if they're slapped with a 'Hate Crime' charge if it hands out a suitable punishment? Why are we coming to the resue of criminals who have been proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?

'Oh he does't really HATE women, he just rapes them for fun, so technically it's only fair he should only serve a couple years and get out on good behavior so he can get back to raping them women.'

I'm all for fair treatment. Prove to me you deserve it.

This is true. Whether or not we think 75 years for the crime he committed is harsh, or leniant, is irrelevant; that's an argument for another time. To me, the charge is of huge importance, not just because of the sentence specific charges bring. 75 years is excessive for this crime, for one main reason: he's serving about...5 times the amount of time in prison that murderers, rapists and child molesters serve.

Do away with the "hate crime" terminology? Absolutely. Revamp the whole justice system, take every crime, name it appropriately, and re-do the maximum sentences for all crimes. Life means life, 25 years means 25 years (if you feel like Parole and good behaviour are relevant, make it 24 years if they're good), and there'll be no controversy like this.

You'll have a list of crimes, a list of the minimum -> maximum sentences for said crime, and then the only issue will be whether or not people agree with the sentences, as opposed to nobody being clear as to what the person's guilty of and nobody gets sent down for a ludicrous amount of time compared to other crimes.

Again, if things continue like this, it won't be an isolated incident. The next time some crack-head beats someone up for his hit money, if the person is of a certain race, age, weight, or any other personal variable, the guy (regardless of how worthless his life is in the eyes of us) will get an extremely unfair sentence, standing alone AND in comparison to all other crimes.

I'm no different from anyone else, I let out a "quite fucking right" when I hear people get maximum sentences for crimes, but I also believe in fairness to all. If you're fair to a certain amount of people, you're being unfair. The justice system depends on fairness, equality, and justice. I'm all for maximum sentences being increased, but totally against people getting harsh jail terms through loopholes and flawed prosecution.

 

[Morcheeba]

Why do they deserve MORE respect? They simply deserve the same respect any other human being deserves. Don't disrespect a person because they're young, old, middle aged or whatever. Being old doesn't negate personality traits that would cause you to lose respect for the person.
If they're a rascist bastard who screams the N word, no repsect for them. If they served in ww2 etc and helped literally defend the world from evil itself more respect to them. If it was 5 years since WW2 or 80 they'd still deserve the same level of respect that entails.

You just twisted everything!

lol Uzor said they wanted to be treated with more respect than to be cooed and taunted like babies. That's why I used the word respect.

The fact that he listed his reasons for giving children special treatment in such cases. That's why I used the word respect. Because these are the people that have helped to CARRY us thus far. These are the people who have contributed their whole lives (not YET to contribute), but now in a feeble state we're going to say you are equal to a 35 yr old man in this situation. Doesn't matter that you've broken your hip and need help climbing stairs.

Elders should be treated differently after a certain age. Fuck it make the age 90. I can probably defend myself pregnant at 27 AND being female than a lot of 90 year old men could. Not all but most.

It's only fair.

 

[Khajit]

If you're in a feeble state with a broken hip at age 35 as a man you still deserve the same help you'd get at age 70. If any person had the same problems the elderly have I'd treat them with the same respect given to the elderly which is the same respect given to everyone else.
ON the other side of the coin fucking around with a blind man that can barely walk whom is hard of hearing is no less douchey than doing the same to an elderly blind man with arthritis with no hearing aid.

 

[Morcheeba]

If you're in a feeble state with a broken hip at age 35 as a man you still deserve help.

Sure you do. But are you then not considered handicap?

 

[Thelona]

Why do they deserve MORE respect?

I think its this attitude which is one of the reason our society has gone to absolute SHIT.

you think theres a reason why pretty much every civilization in the history of the world has looked to their elders with respect and looked to them for wisdom and leadership?

In America i guess it means its just time to take granny drivers license away, throw her in a nursing home and stop listening to her.

old people deserve respect because they know a shit-ton more about the world and life then you or I do, they deserve respect cause they've been there and done that. they deserve respect cause they've been threw times in their life tougher then anyone in our generation has any idea of. and they deserve respect because they've gone threw all of that just to come out weak and sick and in need of support of the younger people in their life that they spent THEIR entire lives raising and teaching


Old people deserve respect period, a society that forgets that will fall into ignorance, cruelty, selfishness and poverty, and deserves no less.

 

[Khajit]

Sure you do. But are you then not considered handicap?

And what would you consider the old person with the same problems? Sounds handicapped to me.

 

[Morcheeba]

And what would you consider the old person with the same problems? Sounds handicapped to me.

No see that's elderly. Not handicap. Out of the ordinary physical or mental limitations/differences or what have you.

By 90 years old there's a HUGE majority of elderly, especially women, who would have fallen and broken their hips. They're not considered handicap.

 

[Khajit]

I think its this attitude which is one of the reason our society has gone to absolute SHIT.

you think theres a reason why pretty much every civilization in the history of the world has looked to their elders with respect and looked to them for wisdom and leadership?

In America i guess it means its just time to take granny drivers license away, throw her in a nursing home and stop listening to her.

old people deserve respect because they know a shit-ton more about the world and life then you or I do, they deserve respect cause they've been there and done that. they deserve respect cause they've been threw times in their life tougher then anyone in our generation has any idea of. and they deserve respect because they've gone threw all of that just to come out weak and sick and in need of support of the younger people in their life that they spent THEIR entire lives raising and teaching


Old people deserve respect period, a society that forgets that will fall into ignorance, cruelty, selfishness and poverty, and deserves no less.

where did i say they deserve NO respect? Is the base level of respect you're assuming I have for other people so low that you assume I'd treat them that way? Yeah they did stuff. They deserve respect for that. It doesn't mean that if some other person whom is less elderly has done the same thing the older person gets precedence on respect as if it's some giant ranking competition.

 

[Khajit]

No see that's elderly. Not handicap. Out of the ordinary physical or mental limitations/differences or what have you.

By 90 years old there's a HUGE majority of elderly, especially women, who would have fallen and broken their hips. They're not considered handicap.

Well they should be since they have just as much trouble moving around compared to a base "normal" human.
I see no reason to not treat them with kindness nor to try and arbitrarily give them less for whatever reason.
Elderly should get to use handicapped parking, a walker doesn't seem much better than a wheelchair as far as freedom of movement goes(except moving up/downhill).

 

[Morcheeba]

Well they should be since they have just as much trouble moving around compared to a base "normal" human.

But they're not. You cannot compare a 70+ year old man to a 60- year old man. You just can't. Thing is there is no dividing line because some elderly are considerably more selfreliant and physically fit than others their age.

But that's why I said there should be an age in place where a crime such as this holds stiffer punishment for the accused.

I'm not saying you are treating them unfairly. I'm saying you need to think of them as needing a little more help then the average adult.

 

[Khajit]

There are regulations/test to check on if a person qualifies for handicapped parking.(probably a doctor's note) It wouldn't been too hard for an elderly person to get a doctor's note if the same regulations were in place for determining if an elderly individual deserves to get handicapped parking.


To sum up the basic of the elderly respect idea.
it's not that they automatically deserve more respect for being old. It's that if they deserve extra respect it's because they already did stuff that deserves it vs everyone else who hasn't yet. They deserve respect for WHO they are not WHAT they are.

 

[Thelona]

where did i say they deserve NO respect? Is the base level of respect you're assuming I have for other people so low that you assume I'd treat them that way? Yeah they did stuff. They deserve respect for that. It doesn't mean that if some other person whom is less elderly has done the same thing the older person gets precedence on respect as if it's some giant ranking competition.

I didn't mean to say you have No respect for elders, but you ask why they should get more respect then anyone else, i was listing why.

this thread has slid so far off topic im not even sure where the argument stands at this point.

 

[Khajit]

Eh so we covered multiple topics. No big deal. It's not like we could add much more to the original one without new information.

 

[Uzor]

If you're in a feeble state with a broken hip at age 35 as a man you still deserve the same help you'd get at age 70. If any person had the same problems the elderly have I'd treat them with the same respect given to the elderly which is the same respect given to everyone else.
ON the other side of the coin fucking around with a blind man that can barely walk whom is hard of hearing is no less douchey than doing the same to an elderly blind man with arthritis with no hearing aid.

This is not the case at all though. Most elderly people get treated like shit at hospitals, unless they have a fuck load of money. Why? Because generally, treating them is not worth it. Let's face it, a 90+ year old potentially does not have a lot of time left to live anyway, so why treat them for problems that would likely reemerge? That's how the hospitals think, and as such give elderly a lot worse treatment than a 30 year old would get.

Care for the elderly sucks in almost all western countries.

 

[Tomasello]

Most elderly people get treated like shit at hospitals, unless they have a fuck load of money. Why? Because generally, treating them is not worth it. Let's face it, a 90+ year old potentially does not have a lot of time left to live anyways.

I think you just described Obama's healthcare plan far better than I ever could. Thank you.

 

[Morcheeba]

There are regulations/test to check on if a person qualifies for handicapped parking.(probably a doctor's note) It wouldn't been too hard for an elderly person to get a doctor's note if the same regulations were in place for determining if an elderly individual deserves to get handicapped parking.


To sum up the basic of the elderly respect idea.
it's not that they automatically deserve more respect for being old. It's that if they deserve extra respect it's because they already did stuff that deserves it vs everyone else who hasn't yet. They deserve respect for WHO they are not WHAT they are.

Okay I think the words 'more respect' was used out of context. When really all I meant was I feel elderly should be give more consideration of their age and the hardships often associated with age in cases such as these. Because they are less likely to be able to fend off an attack as well as someone 20 years their junior.

 

[bigbroon]

This is not the case at all though. Most elderly people get treated like shit at hospitals, unless they have a fuck load of money. Why? Because generally, treating them is not worth it. Let's face it, a 90+ year old potentially does not have a lot of time left to live anyway, so why treat them for problems that would likely reemerge? That's how the hospitals think, and as such give elderly a lot worse treatment than a 30 year old would get.

Care for the elderly sucks in almost all western countries.

This isn't true. An easy example would be my Grandmother. She's due to have a hip replacement on Wednesday. She's old. 80. She doesn't have a great deal of time left. She's getting a hip replacement that could potentially last her 2 days. Why? It's one of a couple of reasons:

1) You don't pay for your specific healthcare in this country. This I don't buy, because where the money comes from is irrelevant. A hip replacement costs money, and denying her the hip replacement would save them money.

2) She's a citizen of this country, and has just as much a right to healthcare as everyone else.

Number 2 is certainly more likely for me. I think saying "most people get treated like shit in hospitals" falls under the ever-expanding category of *massive ignorant generalisations*. Do you read the paper, see some old guy who got left in a corridor for 12 hours while they waited for a bed and think "oh snap, old people get treated like shit?" If not, I'd love to know where this comes from. Are you a hospital inspector? I have, or had, 4 grandparents like most other people, and none of them have had anything but pleasant, efficient experiences in hospital.

Quite what this has to do with the issue at hand isn't obvious to me, though. All Khajit said was that you *deserve the same treatment* for your specific illness, regardless of age, and this principle should be carried over.

Moving on...

Old people don't deserve automatic respect. I've met some right old codgers. Elderly, moody, rude, overly aggressive and downright unpleasant. Why would I respect this? I'm not for one second implying that old people shouldn't be respected, but they certainly shouldn't be given respect as an automatic right. Respect is earned. Plain and simple, you don't demand respect, you earn it (from me, anyway.) I respect certain young people more than old people, and I think that's the correct way. If I see an old person come on the bus, I give them my seat. Not because I respect them, but due to medical circumstances and the circle of life, they need it more than me. I would have no problem telling an elderly person to take their zimmer frame and try and fit it up their sagging ass should they act rudely to me. Old people have been alive longer, that's all. That doesn't earn respect, most of the time, you have little influence over how long you live.

Horrible young people turn into horrible old people. Nice, genuine young people turn into nice, genuine old people. Respect is 100% earned, and you have to give it to receive it. That's where I stand on that one, and I doubt I'll find anything to change my mind on that one.

Holy shit, we're quite off topic now...

Do the previous posts mean that this guy should receive the same treatment were it a 4 foot tall colour-blind man? He's physically far inferior to this man, so by the logic I've seen, he's 75 years in the slamma'. This logic is illogical. Assault is, as Khajit said, assault. There are varying degrees of assault, and that's why sentences for crimes aren't set at 1 value, there's a bracket. If you punch someone in the face who insulted you, you'll get a small sentence at most. If you beat the living shit out of someone in a totally unprovoked attack, you'll get a relatively long sentence. Saying "assault it assault" isn't implying that all crimes deserve the same punishment, it's stating a fact.

This man assaulted another human being, and robbed her. That's where it starts and ends. All this "she was old, helpless, and he's a piece of shit" is crap. You're innoccent until proven guilty, and so until you can prove he attacked her "purely because she was old", as opposed to "purely because he wanted her money (and her being old on spurred him on)", he is no more guilty of a hate crime than anyone on this forum.

 

[Morcheeba]

lots on 'respect'

I used the wrong word, I should have broken it down as I did on my previous post. "Consideration" if you will, that's merely a swapped word where I believe the treatment of both is the same.

Do the previous posts mean that this guy should receive the same treatment were it a 4 foot tall colour-blind man? He's physically far inferior to this man, so by the logic I've seen, he's 75 years in the slamma'. This logic is illogical. Assault is, as Khajit said, assault. There are varying degrees of assault, and that's why sentences for crimes aren't set at 1 value, there's a bracket. If you punch someone in the face who insulted you, you'll get a small sentence at most. If you beat the living shit out of someone in a totally unprovoked attack, you'll get a relatively long sentence. Saying "assault it assault" isn't implying that all crimes deserve the same punishment, it's stating a fact.

1st bolded part; I don't see how being short is a huge disadvantage or
inferior physical attribute. And I also can't see the disadvantage with being colour blind, other than possible mixing his race when describing him later?

(Edit - my bf said 'you don't need to see colours to kick someones ass) Size is never a great judge of strength or capability, that is a lesson worth learning early.

But being an age most do not even survive to, if & when they do they're near crippled. Not all, but a large majority. That is definitely far inferior physically.

2nd bolded part;
Depending on the context of course.

Khajit used it like this;

Assault is assault. At the end of the day it's still a person attacking another regardless of who it is as the helpless threshhold gets passed the second the attacker is winning. If the attacker loses does that mean they deserve a lesser sentence? They had the exact same intent to do the exact same crime and as such deserve the same exact punishment. Whether the attacker won of not is inconsequential except to the victim and/or any damages incurred for medical expenses.

So he basically said the exact opposite of what you said he said ... or meant >.>

This man assaulted another human being, and robbed her. That's where it starts and ends. All this "she was old, helpless, and he's a piece of shit" is crap. You're innoccent until proven guilty, and so until you can prove he attacked her "purely because she was old", as opposed to "purely because he wanted her money (and her being old on spurred him on)", he is no more guilty of a hate crime than anyone on this forum.

I'm going to agree with you here as I have with others, the Hate Crime thing and the charge itself can make an exit. Honestly.

But the punishment should stay.