Obligation to reimburse player for AH overpayment?

[Jeska]

It's not stealing though. If I put up an item for 700 and someone accidentally paid 700,000 instead how does that make me a criminal? I had no intention of forcing somebody to overpay. They just...overpaid. What if the two people involved are constantly on different time zones and can never get a hold of one another? Still doesn't make it criminal.

I agree and if someone isnt careful on the AH they can lose a great deal of money thats why they ask you "Are you sure you want to pay 300k for the 12 fire crystals?" if you just hit enter without reading that helpful little notice well really its nobodys fault except yours. People saying its stealing really need to give their head a shake, its more like you just tossed a ton of money down the drain.

 

[Reauland]

Far be it from me to talk about treating a game with giant elves and catgirls like it's reality, but when you're dealing with other people, it behooves you to treat it as such. Unless I'm very much mistaken, if you receive too much change back at the grocery store and keep it, that's not only unethical, it's criminal.

As far as gaming "crimes" go, I for one am not saying that they're obligated to return the overpayment, but it would certainly be nice to receive such courtesy.

Let those of you who have never, ever made a mistake make of that what you will, and by the way, if you ever do make such a mistake, please take a moment to think about the stance you took on this particular issue before you pick up your fork and dig into that heapin helpin of crow you've just been served.

 

[Xalioniaf]

Much to consider when this happens.
First off, what's the threshold? If I'm selling a multi-million gil item and I turn up an extra million or two, should I go out looking for this person? Would he care about that money when he fairly clearly has so much more on him?
Then, there's if the person ever brings the issue up to you. If they don't, should you actively go and seek them out? Probably not, since anyone who doesn't ask for the overhead back either doesn't want it (quit) or doesn't care for it.
If the issue is brought up, though, then you're in a position to consider whether or not you want to part with the money, and what either option will do to your reputation to that person and, maybe, to the server as a whole (I suppose this is more of an issue on Quetz, what with this board and all).
I've been on the receiving end once, and the giving end once. When I received an inordinately large sum of gil for a rather trite item, I sat on the gil for about a week, constantly logged on in case I got a tell overnight. After the week, I spent it on some fun shit, but at the end of the following week I got a tell asking for the money back. I told him I already spent it, and he threw a flurry of curses at me and said he'd GM me, but honestly if he couldn't be assed to send me a tell for a full week after he lost the gil, then it's no longer my problem.
As for when I lost money, I never found the guy who I bought from. Probably was a mule.

 

[Miros]

Far be it from me to talk about treating a game with giant elves and catgirls like it's reality, but when you're dealing with other people, it behooves you to treat it as such. Unless I'm very much mistaken, if you receive too much change back at the grocery store and keep it, that's not only unethical, it's criminal.

As far as gaming "crimes" go, I for one am not saying that they're obligated to return the overpayment, but it would certainly be nice to receive such courtesy.

Let those of you who have never, ever made a mistake make of that what you will, and by the way, if you ever do make such a mistake, please take a moment to think about the stance you took on this particular issue before you pick up your fork and dig into that heapin helpin of crow you've just been served.

Please don't be mistaken and think I'm some prick who would keep the 500,000 if someone overpaid on a stack of crystals or something. If they contacted me and told me it was a mistake I'd be more then happy then to give them the money back. Just as I'd *hope* someone would do the same for me. I wouldn't feel obligated but I would do it because I'm a good guy! /thumbsup

 

[Jeska]

Far be it from me to talk about treating a game with giant elves and catgirls like it's reality, but when you're dealing with other people, it behooves you to treat it as such. Unless I'm very much mistaken, if you receive too much change back at the grocery store and keep it, that's not only unethical, it's criminal.

How about if you recive too much change at the store and dont look at it just depost it into your pocket? If cashiers cant do their job properly its hardly my place to continually count back my change to make sure they havent short changed or overcharged me, quite often when I'm exiting a store I'm in a hurry, (just like people that use the AH in this game)

I've probably been overcharged a few times and missed it if I get more back than I should have well thats just balances it all out.

As far as gaming "crimes" go, I for one am not saying that they're obligated to return the overpayment, but it would certainly be nice to receive such courtesy.

It would be nice not to hear continual shouts from people about rude and annoying stuff but its an imperfect world, much like our real one deal with it. Fair enough though if someone payed me 3 million gil for 12 wind crystals and they asked me for it back, I'd probably return it, if they payed me 3k for 12 wind crystals I'd probably just laugh and send it back.

Let those of you who have never, ever made a mistake make of that what you will, and by the way, if you ever do make such a mistake, please take a moment to think about the stance you took on this particular issue before you pick up your fork and dig into that heapin helpin of crow you've just been served.

I've probably eaten more than my fair share of crow during my four something years in this game, I've also probably benifited from other peoples stupidity paying my mules more than they put stuff up on the AH for, guess this games all about taking the rough with the smooth.

I certainly wont lose any sleep over something I lost due to my stupidity at putting it up for less than it was worth, nor will I worry about faceless people that have more money than sense when it comes to simple transactions on a virtual AH.


Heres a question, if I recived 3 mil gil for a silver ore I put up for 300 gil, and I attempt to find the player but he's vanished. Days go by, weeks and no sign of him. Hmmm maybe he quit and secided to give some lucky miner one hell of a leaving present?

Weeks become months still no sign of him, should I be charging interest for holding onto his gil so long or is it mine now? Sure am broke that 3 mil would buy me some nice stuff.....

Six months pass... Screw it he's not coming back and that 3 mil can buy me and my friends a lot of happiness I spends it and then Three weeks later I get a tell, Er sorry to bother you but quite some time ago I think I overpayed you on a siver ore, I stopped playing for awhile but I'm back now can I have the money back please?"

After all its the right thing to do....

Problem is now I'm broke and need to sell stuff to make the 3 mil, and guess what prices dropped alot so stuff dont sell for what it did weeks ago....

 

[Hexx]

But see, you're adding an inordinate amount of time to it. In Zerayla's case, it's barely been a week, if that much. How much time you should wait is really subjective. My personal opinion? I'd say give it a week or two; if no contact has been established with you by the person, and you have done your fair share of searching the person out, then by all means keep it. The reason I say it's criminal is because it amounts to stealing. Honestly, you don't need to find the person online to send them back the over payment. Check the AH history, see who it was, send it via delivery box. If after X amount of time, the person has not removed it from their MH, then by all means keep it.

 

[Xalioniaf]

What if they got rid of all their gil with the intent of selling their character, or giving it away to a friend?
The person who lost the gil should be the one to establish contact. To use the store analogy earlier, if I look in my pocket when I get home and notice I have extra change/dollar bill, why is it my responsibility to drive back out to the store and give them back the money?

 

[Hexx]

What if they got rid of all their gil with the intent of selling their character, or giving it away to a friend?
The person who lost the gil should be the one to establish contact. To use the store analogy earlier, if I look in my pocket when I get home and notice I have extra change/dollar bill, why is it my responsibility to drive back out to the store and give them back the money?

That's a bit of a flawed analogy. 1) Unless the store is within walking distance why even bother, 2) Logging onto FFXI and doing a quick /sea all "name" doesn't detract from your day, 3) If the person intended to rid themselves of that money, then they will pretty much never bother to check their delivery box, which in turn means the money you sent back will remain until you cancel the delivery after X amount fo time.

My stance on this is because the one time it happened to me, I just wrote it off as a loss, however the person (Hookx if I remember correctly) searched me out to return the difference (bought 1 holy bolt quiver when i was lookin to buy a full stack).

 

[Miros]

But see, you're adding an inordinate amount of time to it. In Zerayla's case, it's barely been a week, if that much. How much time you should wait is really subjective. My personal opinion? I'd say give it a week or two; if no contact has been established with you by the person, and you have done your fair share of searching the person out, then by all means keep it. The reason I say it's criminal is because it amounts to stealing. Honestly, you don't need to find the person online to send them back the over payment. Check the AH history, see who it was, send it via delivery box. If after X amount of time, the person has not removed it from their MH, then by all means keep it.

I'm just not buying into your argument. I don't see how it is stealing if there is no original motive. Nobody put their items on the AH with the thought that they'll get a chance to steal an overpayment. I don't mean to sound insulting but you are feeding into the common attitude of the latest Gen Yers, which is basically the inability to take responsibility for something that they did in the wrong. The fact of the matter is that the buyer was the one who put in incorrect amount. I'm sure plenty of people have done it before. I think I've done it here and there in my FFXI career. Maybe spent like 5k on a single crystal accidentally. I wasn't going to go calling the person who was selling it for the normal price a criminal because I didn't receive my money back. I was able to say it was my fault and just move on.

I'm trying to keep Zer's post seperate but I just wanna comment and say she's doing the right thing. She's not flaming them or blackballing or anything. Just seeing if she can get a hold of them.

 

[Jeska]

What if they got rid of all their gil with the intent of selling their character, or giving it away to a friend?
The person who lost the gil should be the one to establish contact. To use the store analogy earlier, if I look in my pocket when I get home and notice I have extra change/dollar bill, why is it my responsibility to drive back out to the store and give them back the money?

What if you were shopping at many stores that day and you cant recall if it was the first or tenth one that overpayed you. ^^

 

[Hexx]

I'm just not buying into your argument. I don't see how it is stealing if there is no original motive. Nobody put their items on the AH with the thought that they'll get a chance to steal an overpayment. I don't mean to sound insulting but you are feeding into the common attitude of the latest Gen Yers, which is basically the inability to take responsibility for something that they did in the wrong. The fact of the matter is that the buyer was the one who put in incorrect amount. I'm sure plenty of people have done it before. I think I've done it here and there in my FFXI career. Maybe spent like 5k on a single crystal accidentally. I wasn't going to go calling the person who was selling it for the normal price a criminal because I didn't receive my money back. I was able to say it was my fault and just move on.

I'm trying to keep Zer's post seperate but I just wanna comment and say she's doing the right thing. She's not flaming them or blackballing or anything. Just seeing if she can get a hold of them.

I get what you're saying Miros, but spending 5k for a single crystal, vs millions for a few Iron Ingots is completely different. Yes, it is the buyers fault for messing up and not paying attention, but in my eyes the seller becomes a thief for keeping the money if said person is trying to recover it. Like I posted earlier, can't find the person? Simple, send it via delivery box! If the person who over paid is actively trying to get the money, he/she will be checking their delivery box just in case. If they MEANT to throw that money away, then they probably wont.

I agree, Zerayla's being classy about it. I just didn't agree with Jyak saying she's black balling anyone =P

 

[Miros]

I get what you're saying Miros, but spending 5k for a single crystal, vs millions for a few Iron Ingots is completely different. Yes, it is the buyers fault for messing up and not paying attention, but in my eyes the seller becomes a thief for keeping the money if said person is trying to recover it. Like I posted earlier, can't find the person? Simple, send it via delivery box! If the person who over paid is actively trying to get the money, he/she will be checking their delivery box just in case. If they MEANT to throw that money away, then they probably wont.P

I'm still having difficulty seeing your argument where the obligation pours onto the seller. IF the buyer got in contact that's a different story. If the buyer made 0 effort to contact the seller then I don't see how it's thievery? Why should the seller be obliged to send anything back? Why should they have to put up a mail space and then wait the magical number of days?

 

[Jeska]

I'm trying to keep Zer's post seperate but I just wanna comment and say she's doing the right thing. She's not flaming them or blackballing or anything. Just seeing if she can get a hold of them.

I wasnt even aware this was about Zer I just saw this topic on overpayments and repayments and decided to post my thoughts.

Interesting point, some people may not even be aware there is a FFXI AH.com site or a community forum like this one, they may treat this much like a simple game and feel no concenice whatsoever at keeping extra gil overpayed to them. Most of those situations like I've said before are probably faceless mules that spend all day buying and selling stuff I doubt very much they'll notice any varience in their funds.

 

[Miros]

I wasnt even aware this was about Zer I just saw this topic on overpayments and repayments and decided to post my thoughts.

Interesting point, some people may not even be aware there is a FFXI AH.com site or a community forum like this one, they may treat this much like a simple game and feel no concenice whatsoever at keeping extra gil overpayed to them. Most of those situations like I've said before are probably faceless mules that spend all day buying and selling stuff I doubt very much they'll notice any varience in their funds.

The question arose from Zer's topic and I'm trying to keep the two separate. :S I'd refund the money if I could to Zer! But my view still stands the same.

 

[Reauland]

Oh, trust me. I know you're one of the good guys, Miros. I was actually referring to some of the more strident voices of opposition.

Speaking of which:

How about if you recive too much change at the store and dont look at it just depost it into your pocket? If cashiers cant do their job properly its hardly my place to continually count back my change to make sure they havent short changed or overcharged me, quite often when I'm exiting a store I'm in a hurry, (just like people that use the AH in this game)

I've probably been overcharged a few times and missed it if I get more back than I should have well thats just balances it all out.

It's all in the degree of the error. If you pocketed a few pennies, maybe a five or even a ten, odds are you'd never notice it. But let's say for the sake of argument that the clerk handed you 100 dollar bills in place of ones without realizing it. Would that wash out? How about the reverse - what if the clerk either erroneously or nefariously shorted you to the tune of fifty or one hundred bucks and you were in too big a hurry to realize it at the time. You honestly gonna try to tell me that you wouldn't contact the store in hopes of getting it back? You bet your ass you would, and would probably never return to the store if they didn't return your cash. You might even go so far as to tell all your friends about the assholes at that store and warn them against their slipshod, or downright thieving, employees.

The principle's the same here, the only difference being that we're talking about a game, albeit a game that demands that someone devote great amounts of time to accumulating "wealth," at least if you're just a poor, working stiff like myself.

It would be nice not to hear continual shouts from people about rude and annoying stuff but its an imperfect world, much like our real one deal with it. Fair enough though if someone payed me 3 million gil for 12 wind crystals and they asked me for it back, I'd probably return it, if they payed me 3k for 12 wind crystals I'd probably just laugh and send it back.

lol thanks. I'm infamous for not "dealing with it." Trust me, I deal. As far as the rest of this goes, it appears that you're already coming around to seeing this as an issue with shifting gradations of offense. 3k? Nobody's sweatin that. 3 million on the other hand? Well . . . that's another matter entirely.

I certainly wont lose any sleep over something I lost due to my stupidity at putting it up for less than it was worth, nor will I worry about faceless people that have more money than sense when it comes to simple transactions on a virtual AH.

Losin sleep? Maybe not, but you're losing time - the time it will take you to replace the gil you accidentally lost. If you thought for one moment that someone might be so kind as to return an overpayment it might well have taken you weeks' worth of farming time to accumulate, you wouldn't at least ask? If not, something tells me that makes you the exception rather than the rule. As for the "more money than sense" shot, forgive me for saying so, but this sounds just a tad bit more like some personal grudge you bear someone than it does hypothetical discussion.

Heres a question, if I recived 3 mil gil for a silver ore I put up for 300 gil, and I attempt to find the player but he's vanished. Days go by, weeks and no sign of him. Hmmm maybe he quit and secided to give some lucky miner one hell of a leaving present?

Weeks become months still no sign of him, should I be charging interest for holding onto his gil so long or is it mine now? Sure am broke that 3 mil would buy me some nice stuff.....

Six months pass... Screw it he's not coming back and that 3 mil can buy me and my friends a lot of happiness I spends it and then Three weeks later I get a tell, Er sorry to bother you but quite some time ago I think I overpayed you on a siver ore, I stopped playing for awhile but I'm back now can I have the money back please?"

After all its the right thing to do....

Problem is now I'm broke and need to sell stuff to make the 3 mil, and guess what prices dropped alot so stuff dont sell for what it did weeks ago....

I might search down who made the bonehead move on the AH list; I might even go so far as to see if they're online at the moment, If I did my search and saw them online, I'd probably go preemptive and send em a tell, foreseeing the possible repercussions of not returning the gil before I forgot where it came from. But if they dropped off the planet for 6 months like in your example and came back asking for it, yeah, if I had it on me at the time, I'd happily send it back to them. If not, I'd certainly try to work out some way to pay them back over time, whether it was sending the gil in installments or working out some sort of marathon BCNM-fest with me and the other people who, in your example, benefited from the 3 million in the first place.

Maybe that's just me, though. Anyone who'd like to test my moral fiber, feel free to send heaping TONs of gil to my dbox. I'll give it right back. I swear.

 

[Jeska]

never mind ^^

 

[somedude]

there is NO take backs in this game. i have paid 2 mil for a 200k item, and it SUCKED!!! if they wanted to be nice, and give it back, well that is very cool of them. everyone makes mistakes, but in no way can you blame someone for a mistake YOU made. never herts to ask.if they say "no thanks" you just have to eat it as a loss and move on. is more criminal to call them out for a mistake you made.

 

[chrono fantasy]

For me personally, I would return the person's gil if they bidded way too high and it was a mistake because of lag or they weren't really paying attention.

Think about it this way. We all make mistakes from time to time, and one day you might be one of those people who accidentally bidded a lot more on an item. I'm sure you would like to receive your hard earned gil back and it'll bother you that it's gone.

It is rather selfish if you just keep that extra gil to yourself and blame the person for being human and making mistakes.

I agree, you do not have any obligation to return the gil, and there is no law stating that you must return the extra gil, but it is a moral act. If you keep the gil away from that person and they politely ask for the overpayment back, and you decide to keep it, that really says a lot about who you are overall, and that type of person you are really reflects you throughout the game.

 

[Xalioniaf]

If you keep the gil away from that person and they politely ask for the overpayment back, and you decide to keep it, that really says a lot about who you are overall, and that type of person you are really reflects you throughout the game.

I don't think anyone's arguing against that, but rather what they would do if the buyer didn't ask for the money back.

 

[Palides]

I'd return it if it was someone I knew, was an acquaintance with, or even someone I don't know who basically was just never an asshole.

If you were ever an asshole for any reason sorry, your money is mine.

Hasn't ever happened to me yet, but I once payed 200k for a 5k earring due to server lag, and selecting the item below the one I wanted to buy. Didn't every see that money again, lol.