Oh noez what will the HNMLSes do!?!!111

vang said:
How do you belive in cheating but not mpking cheaters/gilsellers?
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Depends on what you mean with cheating. Buying gil is cheating, since you get ahead of people.

Gil selling isn't cheating, since they don't get ahead in the game

MPK'ing can be cheating, but it's mainly just cruel

Botting is cheating

Replacing .dat's can be cheating.

Windower is cheating.

And honestly, if everyone else is cheating on something, you can do better then them still. But it's harder to do. If you cheat, too, you have the same handicap, and thus it becomes easier.

I don't believe there's any HNM LS (that use PC) that's not cheating. Most people that play on PC use Windower, and thus, cheating. Most people in HNM LS's that camp king HNM's use the .dat removal trick.
 
vang said:
How do you belive in cheating but not mpking cheaters/gilsellers?
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Because people don't classify those methods as 'cheating' but rather 'fighting fire with fire' because if they have to consider themselves cheaters they'd have to submit to those against cheating MPKing them.

And we all know everyone on this board is far too righteous to ever be a cheater.
 
Claiming fafnir without the darter dat against people without darter dats isn't cheating. Seeing Proph, Leg, me, and jb all provoke fafnir right in a row against some other NA team that didn't take the darters out...that was cheating. Felt bad that day. Really petty. They really were trying to claim Faf legitimately. That, or they were incompetent at cheating themselves. The only way to cheat against a cheater is to cheat more than they do. Are they both cheaters? No, not in that isolated system where the totally non-cheater is irrelevant. Maybe in some small way non-cheaters aren't there to begin with because they don't have hope, but that's a small way that has no solution. You can only yell at the rain with that position. It's going to keep raining, so you can either do something or you can do nothing. So you take the darter dats out and do something. Better than whining on a forum about how you don't have a chance in hell of claiming fafnir to me.

Cheating is relative to your competition though. You can either look at it that way, or consider everything that's against the terms of use as cheating regardless of how minor. One gets you results, and a guilty conscience. The other gets you a halo on your head, and you do without. In the end, showing up to a team with the darter dats on is/was naive. All god shells who went to Fafnir should have done their homework and done the same.

But HNMLS's will do what NM whores did when they got their bootleg taken away...they'll deal or they'll disappear. Or they'll...I dunno...whine for months on forums about the glory days.
 
Uzor said:
vang said:
How do you belive in cheating but not mpking cheaters/gilsellers?
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Depends on what you mean with cheating. Buying gil is cheating, since you get ahead of people.

Gil selling isn't cheating, since they don't get ahead in the game

MPK'ing can be cheating, but it's mainly just cruel

Botting is cheating

Replacing .dat's can be cheating.

Windower is cheating.

And honestly, if everyone else is cheating on something, you can do better then them still. But it's harder to do. If you cheat, too, you have the same handicap, and thus it becomes easier.

I don't believe there's any HNM LS (that use PC) that's not cheating. Most people that play on PC use Windower, and thus, cheating. Most people in HNM LS's that camp king HNM's use the .dat removal trick.
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How is windower cheating?
 
Fuck all the people who cheat in this game. You people are the bottom of the barrel. Cheating on a video game, it's just sad. Maybe when your balls drop you'll think a little bit differently about it but until then know this. You are shallow, worthless pussies, that need to be smacked in the back of the head with a Louisville.
 
It's ok because when multiple NA lses and JP included get multi mpked in the Aery repeatedly just because I can have it done I don't want to hear any whining out of any of you especially OH.

Cheating is cheating, you cheat your way, i will cheat mine just to have fun ^^

Claiming an HNM unfairly is fun to you, watching massive amounts of people die ingame is fun to me :D

this is also directed at other LSes, not just OH and their pro-dat removal policy.
 
Well you can all stop worrying. Windower now has a plugin that lets you remove dats again and avoid SE's fix. :roll:
 
Peregrine said:
Cheating is relative to your competition though.
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Cheating is relative to the rules... if everyone else is cheating and you do the same, you're still cheating. What changes is the justification.

Rones said:
Windower now has a plugin that lets you remove dats again and avoid SE's fix.
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God damnit. I really wish Cliff hadn't added plugin functionality to the Windower.
 
vang said:
It's ok because when multiple NA lses and JP included get multi mpked in the Aery repeatedly just because I can have it done I don't want to hear any whining out of any of you especially OH.

Cheating is cheating, you cheat your way, i will cheat mine just to have fun ^^

Claiming an HNM unfairly is fun to you, watching massive amounts of people die ingame is fun to me :D

this is also directed at other LSes, not just OH and their pro-dat removal policy.
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vang FTW? XD
 
I really don't view the windower as a cheat. If you use it to run a bot, or some other program that gives you some form of advantage over another player, then that's cheating. Me being able to check my e-mail while I'm looking for a group isn't cheating at all.

I had my flies taken out for camping fafnir, but mainly to cut down on the lag present, since I suck at claiming. Is that a cheat? Yes, but since it only helped me if we(usually someone else) claimed him, I didn't really care about it. If I didn't lag to hell every time I went to Dragon's Aery, I wouldn't care about the flies, although now I'll have to live with them.
 
CubsWoo said:
vang said:
How do you belive in cheating but not mpking cheaters/gilsellers?
Click to expand...

Because people don't classify those methods as 'cheating' but rather 'fighting fire with fire' because if they have to consider themselves cheaters they'd have to submit to those against cheating MPKing them.

And we all know everyone on this board is far too righteous to ever be a cheater.
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:roll: cheating is wrong. Mpking is wrong. Tossing paper on the street is wrong.

Motivation, and severity of consequences are what truley matters here. I don't wanna just back down and let the jps who mpk/bot win the day, even if I have to drop to their level, but I'm only in support for doing things in retaliation, not starting them, if SE would of just banned jps who cheated, or the ones who mpk'd, if the GM's actually did their job, we wouldn't have to take matters into our own hands, but now that's the only option other than backing down.
 
Daveman said:
:roll: cheating is wrong. Mpking is wrong. Tossing paper on the street is wrong.

Motivation, and severity of consequences are what truley matters here. I don't wanna just back down and let the jps who mpk/bot win the day, even if I have to drop to their level, but I'm only in support for doing things in retaliation, not starting them, if SE would of just banned jps who cheated, or the ones who mpk'd, if the GM's actually did their job, we wouldn't have to take matters into our own hands, but now that's the only option other than backing down.
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So if the GM's decided tomorrow to 'do their job' and ban all the people who have been cheating at HNM camps, including every NA who removed the .dat files, would you accept those bans as justice?
 
well.. Dragon's Aery really doesn't need cheating in terms of .dats. The flies are easily killed if you sleepga them and have a lot of BLM -ga at once or take one at a time.
 
CubsWoo said:
Daveman said:
:roll: cheating is wrong. Mpking is wrong. Tossing paper on the street is wrong.

Motivation, and severity of consequences are what truley matters here. I don't wanna just back down and let the jps who mpk/bot win the day, even if I have to drop to their level, but I'm only in support for doing things in retaliation, not starting them, if SE would of just banned jps who cheated, or the ones who mpk'd, if the GM's actually did their job, we wouldn't have to take matters into our own hands, but now that's the only option other than backing down.
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So if the GM's decided tomorrow to 'do their job' and ban all the people who have been cheating at HNM camps, including every NA who removed the .dat files, would you accept those bans as justice?
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Yes.

SE doesn't perma ban for first offense unless it's something extremely major, so if SE banned everyone who removed dats for like whatever the standard is (72hrs?) and then warned that future offenses may result in harsher punishment, then so be it.

Also remember that justice also includes punishments that fit the crime.
 
It all evens out at the end. If their code is shitty and easily exploited and the dungeonmasters are ineffective than this is the environment that will pop up. The fact that bending the rules makes it unfair for people(like me, btw) who play PS2 and are unable to even the score, is merely an afterthought considering that the entire HNM system is: stupid, stupid, stupid.

Just as you log in the first time and read their warning label, telling you school, work, friends family all should come first before Final Fantasy, they stick in the highest levels arbitrary time consuming tasks like the need to spend 1-3 hours a day staring at your screen JUST TO BEAT OTHER LS OUT FOR THE CLAIM, HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH PREPARATION FOR THE ACTUAL FIGHT, and your whole LS has to be on at that specific time(hence the more real life you have the less change you have, regardless of how much time you're willing to put in when conviniant for you)... and it all just to know everyone else is going to any length to make an advantage for their own team...

Is this... really a moral issue?

When you've reached this point in the game is morality an underlying motivating factor for any LS as a collective? Or is the game flaw that forces you to compete with other human players for severely limited resources force you to look at your rivals as simply another challenge in the game that as a problem solver we seek to overcome?

Now I know I've made this point before... on regular NMs, and Vang came out saying it's whining. But seriously, it's pretty fucking stupid. I remember playing online games before this where the challenge of defeating great opponents was the actual battle, and fighting your way to the battle instead of the battle to get 20 people online at the same time because you can't do squat for yourself or the oh-so-glorious epic fight over who can press R2 and X faster and faster(my hat's off to you Vang!) .

For Leveling Up, and Quest content I give FFXI an A+.

For much of endgame content I give FFXI a F and recommend having its testicles removed so it doesn't breed.
 
Sad thing about the game and the only downside to it being a PC game is someone will find a way to cheat the system....it seems to never fail. Also, the end game isn't really crap it's the people and their crap that makes it out. Get a LS full of say 20 good friends who actually care about being friends first and just enjoy themseves and the game as a whole and it would be pretty fun I think but the chances of that happening are slim to none. There is only one Kizen(sp?) and it will probably remain that way forever.

Note: I'm not downing Kizen(sp?) but actually giving them props for once. Imagine that. In the time I've spent away from the game and got my head out of my ass about some of the members, I realized actually how good of a shell they are in terms of friendship for one another and skill but skill was obvious. Then again I'm from the outside looking in and have no real idea of how it is first hand, just what I think.
 
Elemmire said:
vang said:
It's ok because when multiple NA lses and JP included get multi mpked in the Aery repeatedly just because I can have it done I don't want to hear any whining out of any of you especially OH.

Cheating is cheating, you cheat your way, i will cheat mine just to have fun ^^

Claiming an HNM unfairly is fun to you, watching massive amounts of people die ingame is fun to me :D

this is also directed at other LSes, not just OH and their pro-dat removal policy.
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vang FTW? XD
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Vang is always FTW.

Bajarett it is considered cheating, you don't have the right to be picky and choosey on what is and what isn't cheating. Like I said me mpking you and you using windower is the same thing as far as breaking TOS.
 
I'm perfectly willing to admit it's against the ToS, but I still don't consider it cheating. To SE, they're both breaking the rules but I'd consider MPKing to be a bigger violation, since that's actually interfering with other people's enjoyment of the game.

Me using my windower for the sole reason of being able to use my computer without having to log off all the time doesn't give me any form of advantage or hurt another's gameplay, thus I don't consider it cheating. If I had a bot or some other program that I used because I had the windower, then I would consider myself to be cheating, but for now I don't consider myself as a cheater. If SE provided a windower then I would use that and I wouldn't be "cheating" in any sense of the word, but I doubt that would ever happen.

One thing that I find really interesting, is the differences in the ideas of cheating across the different MMO's. WoW provides a windower and lets you modify your GUI any way you want, but you can't do some things that are allowed by SE. They even consider logging out to clear your hate to be an exploit, while that's a viable tactic in XI.
 
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