only the poor bitch about prices

dedalius said:
Phraust- You forget that I am a member of the economy, I know how it works. Rather than having a bunch of cheaper items (the ores) why don't you buy a bigger item (say erase). Now, you can see that you have enough to buy the charm you sell the scroll. Doing what you're saying is like holding on to quarters when trying to buy a car. You don't hold on to quarters, you change them for dollars, then tens, then twentys, and so forth.

Market lag getting the gil to get Erase, I can drawyou up another example with shorter times that could make the situation more relevant if you wish, or you cna just get the point. It's up to you. And who's to say SE won't up on the next update make erase as easy to get as Raise III, which use to be worth a lot?

dedalius said:
Your second problem, say you see them go at 80k, you put yours up for 75 and they don't sell. If you watch the items in the game then you learn the curves. Such watching produces results like: only sell stuff on saturday night/sunday morning, because thats when prices jump. Following market trends is what being a smart buyer is out. You can play our market exactly like wall street executives play theirs. I made a good 100k this weekend by buying/selling Spider webs. I bought 10 on Thursday afternoon for 30k apeice. Then I held them until Sunday mid-day when they reach peak (usually) and sold them for 40k apeice within minutes. You just have to watch the market and learn trends.
The point of the second problem was that the market was getting choked out by the gil sellers, and thier Zerg tactics on marketing.

You're trying way too hard. The fact is, you will have to have liquid assests at one point or another, it's unavoidable. And the market lag between the time you are liquidating, whatever the items or items may be that you're liquidating, and the time you possess enough gil to buy your item you could end up fucked. Even somethign as drastic as being Joe Sixpack the monk and selling everythign I own to buy a 8 mil Scorpion Harness, only to find by the time I sold everything and made 9 mil to find out that not only could I not buy the scorpion harness for 9, 10, or even 15 mil, that I couldn't even get my gear back that I had sold, unless I came up with another 11 mil. And that took only a night to happen....

...And that happened to a lot of people.

Which is probably why this topic even started... There were enough people caught in that liquidating transition that lost a lot of wealth. Subsquently, complained, and thus annoyed Sculli to the point of actually making a flame...

Flat out. A lot of people got fucked.
A lot of people, even quite a few who were well off, became poor.

I keep a certain amount of spending cash on me, it was annoying to see that it had lost 50% of it's value on christmas day. WHere yes I was pleased in some right that my total net worth increased by 75-95%, I still felt bad for people who were in transition.

Quit with all the Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda, BS. You and I both know the point I am trying to make. And you know for a fact that this in game market isn't as cut and dry, nor as easy to predict as you make it out to be.
 
dedalius said:
Mattaru- I'm not talking about your lucky 100k under price on a erase scroll, I'm talking about consistant ability to make money by watching AH trends. I rarely farm anymore because I can sit at the AH watching price trends and make plenty of money doing that. All it takes is some ability to read and process data. You can even use a spreadsheet program and create graphs. Sure the occasional under-buy is great but to consistantly make money you have to watch trends. Every economy has its trends, even one as artificial as ours.

I'd like to see these graphs, or at least how you compile data, what you look for etc. And yes this economy works like any other though to a greater extreme.

I was saying your stock market analogy doesnt really hold true because of the difference b/t corporation speculation and item price speculation. The price of a good in the economy can very easily be affected by a single crafter deciding to enter into the market, and there is no press to report on a new firm entering the market etc, it will just happen and can greatly effect price. Since the FFXI market is so fluid it has general upwards and downward trends but I'd be very suprised to see speculation on certain items in particular and their particular trends. Phraust's point it seems is that the market can change and move so fast that stable income makers are undermined by unstable price changes in the good sold and the desired good. Extend that to what im saying, the market moves so quickly in items that would be worth speculating (if it did not change much very little profit is to be made) than how is it trackable.
 
Phraust said:
Market lag getting the gil to get Erase, I can drawyou up another example with shorter times that could make the situation more relevant if you wish, or you cna just get the point. It's up to you. And who's to say SE won't up on the next update make erase as easy to get as Raise III, which use to be worth a lot?

Here's where there's danger just like in the real life stock market. It can drop, and occasionally it will. There's only been a handful of times I have seen an item permanently drop in price. Other than that the item goes through lulls just like in a real market. Having Erase when they drop it is just like having Enron stock in this situation.

Phraust said:
You're trying way too hard. The fact is, you will have to have liquid assests at one point or another, it's unavoidable. And the market lag between the time you are liquidating, whatever the items or items may be that you're liquidating, and the time you possess enough gil to buy your item you could end up fucked. Even somethign as drastic as being Joe Sixpack the monk and selling everythign I own to buy a 8 mil Scorpion Harness, only to find by the time I sold everything and made 9 mil to find out that not only could I not buy the scorpion harness for 9, 10, or even 15 mil, that I couldn't even get my gear back that I had sold, unless I came up with another 11 mil. And that took only a night to happen....

...And that happened to a lot of people.

Having liquid cash is unavoidable yes, but you can minimize the damage that it does. Having 9 million gil in cash, or in darksteel ores is a stupid idea. You can help curb the damage done by investing in items.

Phraust said:
The point of the second problem was that the market was getting choked out by the gil sellers, and thier Zerg tactics on marketing.

If the market is getting zerg rushed, then wait for the rush to be over. If you watch the prices when that happens you'll see that all the prices return to a more appropriate value. I'll use the elemental staves. On Leviathan there is a Japanese woodworker named Gaga. Every once in a while Gaga decides he wants to make a bunch of elemental staves. During this time all the NQ staves drop in price. Sometimes as much as 50-60%. Now is when you buy them. They can, and will go back up. The "zerg rush" caused them to drop in price. You can either buy them now, or if you already have them and want to sell them, wait until the rush is over. I waited 3 weeks to get my earth staff because I watched the prices, and waited for Gaga to go on one of his crafting sprees.

Mattaru said:
I'd like to see these graphs, or at least how you compile data, what you look for etc. And yes this economy works like any other though to a greater extreme.

I said you could make them, not that I did. But I'll tell you what I look for when I watch the market. I keep track of the faster selling items, nothing like Baronne gear that only sells once every other week. Stuff like erase, the level 36 stat rings, and when I get enough money, the level 54 ones. These aren't all of them, but it's a good idea. I do this to minimize the selling time variable. I can get a very quick turnaround of my item->gil conversion with these. Also, I don't buy just one. If I can only afford one item of a certain price, I'll get 3-4 different items of a lower price. If I have 6 erase scrolls, I have to wait for 6 white mages to have gil to buy them. If I have one erase scroll, one stonega III scroll etc. then I can diversify my purchases amongst the different jobs and crafts.

If I were then going to record my observations, I would make a graph that on one axis has the price of the item (scale appropriate to cost; i.e. no millions on darksteel ore, and no 10ks on emp pin). The other axis would have date along with the day of the week to make it easier to read. This would show the general price curve and would give you a good idea of when the price peaks. It usually peaks about the same time every week due to people's play habits. If you see an overall upward trend over a few weeks, then the item might be worth investing in. If not, don't do it unless you want to gamble.

Mattaru said:
I was saying your stock market analogy doesnt really hold true because of the difference b/t corporation speculation and item price speculation. The price of a good in the economy can very easily be affected by a single crafter deciding to enter into the market, and there is no press to report on a new firm entering the market etc, it will just happen and can greatly effect price. Since the FFXI market is so fluid it has general upwards and downward trends but I'd be very suprised to see speculation on certain items in particular and their particular trends. Phraust's point it seems is that the market can change and move so fast that stable income makers are undermined by unstable price changes in the good sold and the desired good. Extend that to what im saying, the market moves so quickly in items that would be worth speculating (if it did not change much very little profit is to be made) than how is it trackable.

You don't need press. The difference between the in-game economy and the real life economy is that I can walk to the AH and look at prices. I can't walk into the NYSE and do the same thing. You can do your own research a lot easier here than you can in real life. Just like in playing the stock market, if your darksteel ores drop from 80k to 55k then don't sell them. Wait for them to go back up like they always will and sell them later. Unlike in the real economy, the demand for items in this game will never go down. Crafters will always need materials to make stuff.

My Spider Web example is a perfect example for price speculation. Through watching their prices I see that they tend to reach their lowest on Wednesday or Thursday, and reach their peak early to mid Sunday. Unless the people on your server are radically different than on Leviathan, then yours probably follows a similar pattern.
 
Well i was close to buying SH at 8 mil.But now it hit the fang to like 500 mil or something?? i can't get it now lol
 
2 comments.

Mish, there is another factor on why people are buying the scrolls. There is a HUGE contingent that quested those scrolls way back in the day and sold them for a quick buck because they were never going to be a mage. Now they are a mage and need the scrolls and have no choice but to buy it.

Pere, you are close when you say time = gil. I think it's more along the lines of time spent = gil. Meaning it's how you spend your time too. Some people spend all their time leveling, some skilling up or questing, and some crafting. Hell Im only "high level" because I got extremely lucky and found a good static that dragged me to 75. Otherwise I very much suspect that I would still be mid 60's (been 75 for almost a year now). I spend the majority of my time crafting. Not for the gil, but because I really enjoy it, though the gil is a nice side effect.
 
Mistaya said:
I think all players BEGAN equally, as a level 1 XX with no subjob in a main city making alliances to kill tiny mandragoras or what have you. The richest player on the server had the same stats and equipment as the guy who starts tomorow once.

The inequality is the amount of time played, that's all.


While I do mostly agree, I think there's more of an inequality than that - some people may kill a NM a couple dozen times with no drop while some other person may kill it and run 4/4. With a little bit of luck (wether you wanna thank TH or not), a person could actually surpass people whom have played a year or two longer than them within just a few hours. Not very likely, but it does happen.

And Alanon, while I do know that there's probably people in the hundreds who sold their Tele scrolls and are wanting to get em back...for every person buying a quested item, there's obviously someone not doing the quest, for one reason or another*. While I see how it's understandable on some quests like Jaguar Mantle, where the character hasto goto several high-level areas and in the end fight 4 NMs, these quests simply require a certain amount of fame, talking to an NPC going to (x) zone, checking a ???, talking to two other NPCs, done. At least Yhoat and Vahzl have a level of difficulty (one's bad drop rate, other comes from a constantly camped chest).

*More specifically on that..best example I can think of is when a new quested item is introduced and it starts selling on AH. Anyone buying it is either someone who isn't getting it via the quest, or someone who quested it, sold it, and wants to get it back. In my opinion it's people's simple unwillingness to do these quests that's driving up the price, wether it be because the quest is too tough for them or "not worth their time". Level 5 fame isn't all that tough to get in most areas (except maybe Bastok ^^; ) and going to a zone, popping sneak and checking a ??? is clockwork compared to some of the crap they put you thru on other quests.

Think it's silly that people will go fight four demon NMs that cast escape on your tank just to get some 20k grenade but might not be willing to toss on a sneak and check a ??? for a 500k scroll =P
 
Originally Posted by Phraust
Market lag getting the gil to get Erase, I can drawyou up another example with shorter times that could make the situation more relevant if you wish, or you cna just get the point. It's up to you. And who's to say SE won't up on the next update make erase as easy to get as Raise III, which use to be worth a lot?

[/quote] Here's where there's danger just like in the real life stock market. It can drop, and occasionally it will. There's only been a handful of times I have seen an item permanently drop in price. Other than that the item goes through lulls just like in a real market. Having Erase when they drop it is just like having Enron stock in this situation.
saying that you can get erase majority of the time you are sharing the profits with 3 to 6 other people so the profit is not so great. With hnm you have 18 people or so camping not to kill a hnm but to claim. this is the reason so called "lux items" have rose in price. Prime example is serket serket could be killed by a ninja and rdm combo easy but because of so many gil seller cells camp it you need like 18 people to claim to make that even worse the item drop rate go down because of so many people killing. Also it make it so the item has to be bought and cant be hunted. if little johnny wanted serket ring he has to buy it because there is no way he can kill him self and almost no way you are going get 18 people to compete with gil seller cells for 3-4 weeks just so little johnny get a serket ring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phraust
The point of the second problem was that the market was getting choked out by the gil sellers, and thier Zerg tactics on marketing.
If the market is getting zerg rushed, then wait for the rush to be over. If you watch the prices when that happens you'll see that all the prices return to a more appropriate value. I'll use the elemental staves. On Leviathan there is a Japanese woodworker named Gaga. Every once in a while Gaga decides he wants to make a bunch of elemental staves. During this time all the NQ staves drop in price. Sometimes as much as 50-60%. Now is when you buy them. They can, and will go back up. The "zerg rush" caused them to drop in price. You can either buy them now, or if you already have them and want to sell them, wait until the rush is over. I waited 3 weeks to get my earth staff because I watched the prices, and waited for Gaga to go on one of his crafting sprees.
the problem is with gil sellers the zerg rush never ends. it true finish crafting items will flux with amount in ah but ingrdients that are rare to fine normally dont go down which is why crafter are making less and less money not to mension items like ebow and enhancing sword which always set at about 12 mil.

Originally Posted by Peregrine
The whole premise of MMOs is that all players are equal.
Not sure what to make of you of all people saying that.
Developers created MMOs in such a way that the premise is that all players are NOT equal. If they had in mind that all players would be equal, then there would be one set of end-game gear that all players could easily get unrelated to the players play-time and financial abilities. This is clearly not the case.

MMOs are meant to cater to two groups of people equally from a dev's perspective (which is different than the players perspective). The dev's cater to the hardcore gamers, who get all the uber gear and get to see high end zones. And the dev's and hardcore gamers cater to those who want to be hardcore, and try, and try, and try, and eventually either become hardcore, or quit after realizing that given their circumstances they will never ever be in the top 10% of the game.
I am not imposing anything, I am pointing out that the majority of players plays the game with the goal to better their character, be it to "be like the guy with all the cool gear", or be it to "get all the cool gear listed on allakhazam". Few people play the game just for fun and with disreard to equipment issues. Those people who manage to play the game just for fun are happier players, and things like rising prices have no impact on them.

I'd like to hear a factual argument that would support the notion that MMOs mean for all players to be equal.
well actually all player are equal. In rl there are many factors that make a person sucessful, but in game all you know is a char. when you first start out all lvl 1 mithra rdm are the same and at 75 all mithra rdm base skills are the same. The only thing that change is choice. mmo are is choices you can choose to be rdm or war, you choose to be mithra or hume, you choose boy or girl. you choose your equipment depending in what you want to put str in. you choose your food dependng on your need, you choose your craft you want to lvl, you choose where you want to lvl. A mmo does not have 1 set goal it has many because everyone plays mmo for diffent reasons, BUT the base stats of a char are same as anyone else.
depending on you job and race you will have strs and weaknesses, but no one is overpowered, untill you get into 3rd party programs that allow you to claim faster and run faster and walk though walls then you throw equallity out the window. so designer design mmo to give people choices and goals to follow while still keeping fairity. Though designer never could have expected the gil seller conquest. Most gil seller do not break the rule in all fact they are actually doing what this game was intended to do do things as a group to stranghten you weakness. If it was not for gil sellers in some ocatsions price could be alot worse then the are because the common person does not like to farm with the needs of the demand.:partytime:
 
dedalius said:
Here's where there's danger just like in the real life stock market. It can drop, and occasionally it will. There's only been a handful of times I have seen an item permanently drop in price. Other than that the item goes through lulls just like in a real market. Having Erase when they drop it is just like having Enron stock in this situation.


I think you have become too focused on Phraust's choice of item in his explanation to actually listen to the actual point. But because I like crushing people's foolish aspirations towards being a smartass, I'll fill you in why your example is even more faulty. Erase scrolls are purchased 1 at a time, and only 1 per person, the likelyhood of stokepileing the scrolls is very low as well, since the profit you would stand to make when attempting to resell a scroll purchased on the AH for a higher amount would likely be eaten by the taxes. In the case of ores, a person leveling blacksmithing stands a good chance of buying dozens at a time, the ore is common and hundreds are sold a day, with fluctuations occuring at all hours. Erase is not so common, and the chance that you will have to relist it is high, since people are more willing to wait it out (as can bee seen with WHMs waiting til their late 40s and sometimes 50s to purchase the scroll). Not only is your example poor in demand, but the amount of money changing hands is actually lower.

Now if you want to give examples of rapid sales running upwards of 600k, you could look back to when THFs camped VE and there would be 30+ hairpins on the block without prices dropping. But really, the notion that you can simply wait out the economy till a more reasonable price is available leaves you open to the exact same fluctuations, reguardless of whether you are selling ores, bird feathers, erase scrolls, or scorpion harnesses. Ideally, a fast selling item, that can be obtained reliably and sold at a constant price is best, but hell if you were to find that, you would end up competing with 10 other people and that reliability would be gone. Personally, I always hold a mil on me, and hold store items that I know are likely to increase in value. It worked when survival belts rose from 20k to over a mil and it will continue to work as time goes on. This bullshit about how tossing around huge chucks of cash will lead to other huge chucks of cash is a pipe dream.

I'm tired of hearing from people who bitch about prices, then immediatly try and tell me how the economy works. If you know so much, there would be nothing for you to be bitching about, since the price level would be logical to you.

dedalius said:
Having liquid cash is unavoidable yes, but you can minimize the damage that it does. Having 9 million gil in cash, or in darksteel ores is a stupid idea. You can help curb the damage done by investing in items.
Just for the record, darksteel ore is an item.
 
Bigboy said:
I think you have become too focused on Phraust's choice of item in his explanation to actually listen to the actual point. But because I like crushing people's foolish aspirations towards being a smartass, I'll fill you in why your example is even more faulty. Erase scrolls are purchased 1 at a time, and only 1 per person, the likelyhood of stokepileing the scrolls is very low as well, since the profit you would stand to make when attempting to resell a scroll purchased on the AH for a higher amount would likely be eaten by the taxes. In the case of ores, a person leveling blacksmithing stands a good chance of buying dozens at a time, the ore is common and hundreds are sold a day, with fluctuations occuring at all hours. Erase is not so common, and the chance that you will have to relist it is high, since people are more willing to wait it out (as can bee seen with WHMs waiting til their late 40s and sometimes 50s to purchase the scroll). Not only is your example poor in demand, but the amount of money changing hands is actually lower.
ME said:
I said you could make them, not that I did. But I'll tell you what I look for when I watch the market. I keep track of the faster selling items, nothing like Baronne gear that only sells once every other week. Stuff like erase, the level 36 stat rings, and when I get enough money, the level 54 ones. These aren't all of them, but it's a good idea. I do this to minimize the selling time variable. I can get a very quick turnaround of my item->gil conversion with these. Also, I don't buy just one. If I can only afford one item of a certain price, I'll get 3-4 different items of a lower price. If I have 6 erase scrolls, I have to wait for 6 white mages to have gil to buy them. If I have one erase scroll, one stonega III scroll etc. then I can diversify my purchases amongst the different jobs and crafts.

Read the entire post.

Bigboy said:
I'm tired of hearing from people who bitch about prices, then immediatly try and tell me how the economy works. If you know so much, there would be nothing for you to be bitching about, since the price level would be logical to you.


Just for the record, darksteel ore is an item.

Just for the record, I'm not bitching. Also for the record, where did I say darksteel wasn't an item?


To Hellstorm: I'm having trouble reading your post, can you clean up the quotes?
 
dedalius said:
Also for the record, where did I say darksteel wasn't an
I see what you meant, and my wording was unclear. I meant that you should invest it in higher priced items. Goes back to my example of quarters -> dollar -> tens etc. I meant that having 9 million gil stored in items worth 30k apeice is a bad idea. It's better to have it stored in items worth 1mil+.
 
dedalius said:
Few months later because all of the elites have posted their strategies and make it easy for the non-elites to do it. Non-elites never would be able to take down stuff without the elites to do the work first. FYI before you start calling me an elitest, my highest job is 65 Bard and I am far from elite equipment.
So anything elite can do "gimps" can. Thank you for clearing this up.
 
Peregrine said:
So anything elite can do "gimps" can. Thank you for clearing this up.

The elite can do it better, faster, and before the gimps. Take a linkshell full of gimps, and do something that an elite linkshell hasn't already done and I'll be impressed.
 
alanon said:
Pere, you are close when you say time = gil. I think it's more along the lines of time spent = gil. Meaning it's how you spend your time too. Some people spend all their time leveling, some skilling up or questing, and some crafting. Hell Im only "high level" because I got extremely lucky and found a good static that dragged me to 75. Otherwise I very much suspect that I would still be mid 60's (been 75 for almost a year now). I spend the majority of my time crafting. Not for the gil, but because I really enjoy it, though the gil is a nice side effect.

There is little talent to earning gil unless you come up with schemes, and even then there is no secret. Schemes include "playing the AH"--a dumb attempt at being a stock market "playa," a BC charger, a casino operator, or a dynamis coin seller. HNMLS's don't pay out, they equip for the most part. If you want gil, spider webs are 40k a piece. Not that hard, and it'll beat my L80 cloth unless I too farmed silk. All you need is the time a day to do some moneymaking, and that time is all you need to make talent or smarts or "business savvy" irrelevant. Time is king. The only people who take too long to make gil are the people who take too long to level or don't have the support to do BC's. No one does it poorly. They just don't do it enough.
 
dedalius said:
The elite can do it better, faster, and before the gimps. Take a linkshell full of gimps, and do something that an elite linkshell hasn't already done and I'll be impressed.

I can't say this any more clearly. Anything you can do, a gimp can do. I don't recall saying anything about a time order, and you're a fool to think equipment quality says anything about the intelligence of the player base, rendering them unable to do something.

Elite do it first because that's what gunners do. Not because they're better at it. Because they are compelled to be gunners.
 
Peregrine said:
I can't say this any more clearly. Anything you can do, a gimp can do. I don't recall saying anything about a time order, and you're a fool to think equipment quality says anything about the intelligence of the player base, rendering them unable to do something.

Elite do it first because that's what gunners do. Not because they're better at it. Because they are compelled to be gunners.

Ever heard the phrase "anything you can do, I can do better"?
 
dedalius said:
I see what you meant, and my wording was unclear. I meant that you should invest it in higher priced items. Goes back to my example of quarters -> dollar -> tens etc. I meant that having 9 million gil stored in items worth 30k apeice is a bad idea. It's better to have it stored in items worth 1mil+.


What my point boiled down to though was that you were too stubborn to get the point of Phraust's post and could only see the word darksteel. Replace darksteel with adamant and you start to see the picture, and that is what he was trying to say, but using items more people are likely to know the value of, with numbers that are easier to understand.
 
Peregrine said:
I can't say this any more clearly. Anything you can do, a gimp can do. I don't recall saying anything about a time order, and you're a fool to think equipment quality says anything about the intelligence of the player base, rendering them unable to do something.

Elite do it first because that's what gunners do. Not because they're better at it. Because they are compelled to be gunners.

I don't believe that, but whatever. I think if the person is able to keep up with the elite they can't possibly be gimp. Either that or they are being carried along on the coatails of the elite. But, eh, this is a discusion for a different time.
 
Bigboy said:
I think if the person is able to keep up with the elite they can't possibly be gimp. Either that or they are being carried along on the coatails of the elite. But, eh, this is a discusion for a different time.

It's relevant as a point against whining about not being able to afford certain gear. You don't NEED in this game, and you shouldn't be so young as to whine about wanting something. You have to be 13 to play. Whining about high prices of scorpion harnesses is absurd when Scorpion harnesses won't win you anything. If you NEED gear to win otherwise you'd lose, chances are your player or your intelligence needs leveled.

If the person is able to keep up with the elite, no they aren't gimp. They have a character. That's all it takes. If you equip them correctly, no amount of equipping them decadently is going to get you wins and achievements that you couldn't otherwise have gotten anyway. There is nothing in the game that expensive gear solves. Nothing.

To get more back on track, it is unreasonable to whine about high prices unless your invested moneymaking tactic was destroyed by the imbalanced econ. Lower level silk is a good example. You used to be able to afford snipers and emp pin and leapers with a L65 cloth turning silk over. Now you have to work about twice as long to get the same profits. And again, what did you expect? You can't expect to make what you always have at the same level. That's not how econs work.

However, it is completely reasonable to whine about escalating prices. That is a huge problem. I can't possibly hope to compete with this inflation given the time I have in this game unless I pull my own schemes out instead of individual work. I won't do that, so the AH is pretty much dead to me. Only used to buy bolt heads and shihei.
 
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