Pandemonium Warden - Round III

I sill stand by my reasoning. SE always /always/ does this. Every game they make.

EVERY ONE

Has an uber boss or two that just /can't/ be beaten the same way as any other boss, monster, or thing in the rest of the game...

Take Ozma for example. Normally, he is completely immune to non ranged attacks, has a high magic resist, and a move that will wipe out your whole party in a single hit.

Now to solve these problems, you either need to A find his magic weakness, or B find a way to melee him. And a way to avoid is insta kill move.

Turns out SE did give us a way to bypass this. No it wasn't some uber awesome armor, it wasn't using a glitch in the terrain. It was doing a side quest to obtain the ability to melee him, and doing a quest to obtain an item that made Ozma's uber one hit kill move.... HEAL your party full.

Hmmm

So what we need to do is make a lay out of exactly what it is that kills the parties.

What is AV's and Pand's move/moves that make the party wipe. what seperates these guys from other HNMs?

I can think of a few, feel free to add on to the list.

AV:

Has all 2 hours.

Can repeatedly use Benediction to heal self.

Will spam these moves to own us all.

Pand? I dunno much about him.


Another thing I am starting to notice. These bosses are having some serious connections to other stuff. Take Pand's first batch of forms.

Chariots, Beastmen leaders. Can anyone think of another quest that requires us to beat these exact monsters?

Can you say Nyzul Isle Weapons? Maybe using the new nyzul WS coming out soon will do something, trigger something, whatever.

I'm not saying zmggottausesinfulweaponsonAVtowin, I'm tossing out ideas to trigger other ideas from other people.
 
I agree completely, what I think is for PW, we still dont have the ability/weapon/item that will give us the edge in combat. Same thing with AV, although I think by now the ability/weapon/item is out there, just not known since AV appears about as often as a blue moon. BTW points for that analysis Urat
 
Urat said:
Stuff.
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AV is just fucking broken, if the player base that has figured out every single thing in the game in a matter of weeks can't beat a NM that has been out for 3 years and still can't be beaten that means the NM is fucking broken. The majority of the player base has given up on AV now because his drops just aren't worth it, they are just small increases to armor they can obtain much easier from other events.

PW has many more forms then that he also has a much harder version of the 3 ToAU HNMs which go like this....
ffxi_20080810_052234.png

That's what happened when just 1 Fulmination went off.

Zoot from BG said:
The first problem we ran into was that when the Dvergr spawned after we defeated a form, and casted the Stun Aoe on everyone, the next form rushed after whoever had hate last and then picked people off on its hate list. We had to make sure the tanks had hate and then disband the party quickly.

If the tanks didn't get hate quickly, it picked off our damage dealers one by one which slowed down the lamp phase. And we couldn't properly kite because the entire ally would have been drawn in. And also, once our tanks did get hate the lag from having everyone in such a close proximity would stall them long enough so that PW and the Lamps got enough hits off to kill them.

What we started to do was have all the healers and people without a a large amount of hate clear out towards 3-2%, and have the tanks and a designated person high on the hate list stay close. If the tanks didn't have hate, the designated person with hate would kite pw until the tank party (which then disbanded from alliance) claimed with hate.

On the gear form, having healers in party was a pain in the ass. The gears were of course very hard to pull off of PW because of the weird shared hate. The Artificial gravity and a buffed up Rail Cannon would hit the tanks as they spawned into the middle area from draw in, because they were so hard to move. This caused some messiness at the beginning, both from the tanks getting gravitied and the healers dying because the tanks only have ~2 seconds to gtfo once they are drawn in before getting eaten by PW and its lamps, so they can't really stop to cure and get hate back.

What we did for this form was have one white mage in the tank party to erase and two healers out of party sit at either tunnel to heal as the kiters passed, because its at these points that the kiters tend to get hit the hardest.

The next problem we encountered was that a few forms have increased movement speed.

We first experienced this with Zazarg, who moved at at least 15% movement speed along with his helper soldiers. Instead of kiting this form, we had ruke supertank while the pld party held a few of the lamps.

Amendment: Only Zazarg and his mnks were a problem with their movement speed in relation to the generals, the others were pretty easy to kite because they either stopped to cast or ranged attack.

The next problem we had with this was with Khimaria and his puks, who all moved at increased movement speed. We really didn't have a way we could supertank this because khim hits like a truck AND moves with increased speed, so instead we had a tank run in, invincible and get a head start where we could pick off 4-5 of the weak puks before restarting. It only took us two tries, after the first time we had so many puks down that we were able to keep the tanks alive.

Khimaria's fullmination was insane, and we fought it with wings up the entire time, as well as hydra having all three heads + regen the full fight and cerb having access to GoH from 100%. Fullmination wasn't too bad of a problem, we just had a Fullmination go off while we were kiting to recover from lamps and it hit the entire Damage alliance...which left us in really bad shape. Then a missed stun and oh boy. Khim and Cerb weren't resistant to stun but Hydra was.
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I more thing, if the secret to beating PW is the new weaponskills why the fuck would SE release PW before the new ws's were out? Unless they are that fucking retarded.
 
Auron X said:
I more thing, if the secret to beating PW is the new weaponskills why the fuck would SE release PW before the new ws's were out? Unless they are that fucking retarded.
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Because SE IS retarded LOL
 
Why did SE have the unbroken weapons available as the final prize in Nyzul months before you could break them?

You expect SE to wait 3 years and release all 3 expansion packs in a row?

They made the mob, released him, and are now finishing up on the nyzul weapons.

Did you also not see the fact that the prereq step 1 and 2 quests for the nyzul weapons were released /with/ the ZNMs? Maybe SE just didn't expect us to be able to fight pandemonium this soon? Maybe they thought it'd take LSs another month or so to fight him.

Right around the time they plan on releasing the WS. Huh, isn't that interesting.

Another thing. the only reason we are able to figure things out as a community in 3 weeks is cause you get like 1,000 people all doing it on a day to day basis.

Server wid,e how many people do you even /think/ try and fight AV a day? 5, 6?

Thats a lot more than five to six hundred people doing such and such quest, or a few hundred leveling such and such skill, or a few hundred parsing such and such weapon's TP return under 12 and a half Haste.

If so few people are even trying to fight AV, how the hell are we /ever/ going to solve it.

It's called trial and error for a reason, if we don't do the trials anymore, there won't be any errors, or the possibility of success.

So once again, we need to start doing what we've done with every other FF's uber boss, make a list of what kills us, and figure out how to combat it.
 
Urat said:
Why did SE have the unbroken weapons available as the final prize in Nyzul months before you could break them?

You expect SE to wait 3 years and release all 3 expansion packs in a row?

They made the mob, released him, and are now finishing up on the nyzul weapons.

Did you also not see the fact that the prereq step 1 and 2 quests for the nyzul weapons were released /with/ the ZNMs? Maybe SE just didn't expect us to be able to fight pandemonium this soon? Maybe they thought it'd take LSs another month or so to fight him.

Right around the time they plan on releasing the WS. Huh, isn't that interesting.

Another thing. the only reason we are able to figure things out as a community in 3 weeks is cause you get like 1,000 people all doing it on a day to day basis.

Server wid,e how many people do you even /think/ try and fight AV a day? 5, 6?

Thats a lot more than five to six hundred people doing such and such quest, or a few hundred leveling such and such skill, or a few hundred parsing such and such weapon's TP return under 12 and a half Haste.

If so few people are even trying to fight AV, how the hell are we /ever/ going to solve it.

It's called trial and error for a reason, if we don't do the trials anymore, there won't be any errors, or the possibility of success.

So once again, we need to start doing what we've done with every other FF's uber boss, make a list of what kills us, and figure out how to combat it.
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Bolded part SE should of fucking learned from their mistakes when people hit the level cap as fast as they did when the game first came out. Don't put a mob into the game if you don't put the means to beat it also into the game with it.

People don't even try to fight AV anymore, they just let it despawn because all AV is, is SE's big fucking joke. Everytime someone figures out a way to fight it they fix it. Urat I have a question have you ever even fought AV? If so then you have no idea what its like to fight it.

Lastly it doesn't matter how long we have to wait until they release the final Nyzul weapons and weaponskills because they probally won't be the key to anything and if they are then SE owes that ls a big fucking apology for making a huge fuckup and should of realized that they shouldn't of released PW when that first ls popped ATNM test.
 
The idea that you need the nyzul weapons to beat PW is stupid.

PW is beatable. Thats not the problem here. The problem is the massive resources, manpower, and time needed to be able to do it. If that linkshell hadn't spent 18 hours GETTING to the final form, they wouldve taken it down in a few hours I'm sure.

So please, stop the speculations and theories. How to kill it isn't the problem. The length of the fight and the fact that SE completely disregarded their own message that pops up everytime you log on in making this fight is the issue.
 
Mayhaps the weapon is the key to it not taking 18 hours?

Mayhaps the forms are neverending?

I'll give you another good example from a different game. Vamp in MGS4. You could sit and fight him for 18 hours straight, and give up, saying the makers are retards, cause you don;t have any more time to kill him...

Turns out you just can't kill him like that. Turns out you gotta use an item in your inventory you never used and practically forgot about.

What your saying is that even using the special whatever it would take forever to kill him, it would take 18 hours.

what I'm saying is mayhaps using the key it would take 20 mins to 1 hour to kill him.

What I'm saying is the guys at SE are probably shaking their heads that these guys managed to burn their way for 18 hours through the neverending forms without realsing they're obviously neverending.

You expect to believe that SE would expect us to spend 18 hours+ on a mob? Do you seriously, actually believe that? Do you not even slightly think that, hey, the thing they've done on every damn single other big boss in every single other game they've made doesn't apply to this one?

I'm seriously wondering what kind of flippin retarded LS wouldn't figure it out already. I can pretty accurately say, the forms won't end from this point.

Maybe this guy was created to tell us, "Hey, we're asking you to think outside the box again, why aren't you yet?"

You. Can't. Beat. this. Boss.

Using conventional means. Maybe when he starts looping forms you'll get it. Thin kabout it, you're killing Pandemonium Warden. not Cerberus, not Khimaria, not Hydra, not this guy, not that guy.
 
Tyrath said:
The idea that you need the nyzul weapons to beat PW is stupid.

PW is beatable. Thats not the problem here. The problem is the massive resources, manpower, and time needed to be able to do it. If that linkshell hadn't spent 18 hours GETTING to the final form, they wouldve taken it down in a few hours I'm sure.

So please, stop the speculations and theories. How to kill it isn't the problem. The length of the fight and the fact that SE completely disregarded their own message that pops up everytime you log on in making this fight is the issue.
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Ummmm isnt this the FFXI Endgame Discussion forum???? HELLO!!!!!! This forum was MADE for discussion and speculation.
 
Urat, what you're not taking into account is that somewhere on the internet is a statement from Sage Sundi that AV is meant to be double digit hour fight. Whether thats true or not, I don't know. But that speaks for how SE thinks about these fights. Quit trying to figure out the "hidden tricks" behind's SE's retardation. There aren't any.


And no, I don't believe the forms will infinitely loop because they reached the form finally that kept flashing between every monster. The form started doing new things with the lamp. Theres a 99% chance that that was the last form.


Hexx said:
Ummmm isnt this the FFXI Endgame Discussion forum???? HELLO!!!!!! This forum was MADE for discussion and speculation.
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Its hard to have a discussion when none of us have fought the thing. Throwing out theories without the means to test them accomplishes nothing.
 
Urat said:
Mayhaps the weapon is the key to it not taking 18 hours?

Mayhaps the forms are neverending?

I'll give you another good example from a different game. Vamp in MGS4. You could sit and fight him for 18 hours straight, and give up, saying the makers are retards, cause you don;t have any more time to kill him...

Turns out you just can't kill him like that. Turns out you gotta use an item in your inventory you never used and practically forgot about.

What your saying is that even using the special whatever it would take forever to kill him, it would take 18 hours.

what I'm saying is mayhaps using the key it would take 20 mins to 1 hour to kill him.

What I'm saying is the guys at SE are probably shaking their heads that these guys managed to burn their way for 18 hours through the neverending forms without realsing they're obviously neverending.

You expect to believe that SE would expect us to spend 18 hours+ on a mob? Do you seriously, actually believe that? Do you not even slightly think that, hey, the thing they've done on every damn single other big boss in every single other game they've made doesn't apply to this one?

I'm seriously wondering what kind of flippin retarded LS wouldn't figure it out already. I can pretty accurately say, the forms won't end from this point.

Maybe this guy was created to tell us, "Hey, we're asking you to think outside the box again, why aren't you yet?"

You. Can't. Beat. this. Boss.

Using conventional means. Maybe when he starts looping forms you'll get it. Thin kabout it, you're killing Pandemonium Warden. not Cerberus, not Khimaria, not Hydra, not this guy, not that guy.
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This ls DID REACH THE FINAL FORM and it took 18 hours to reach. SE has also stated that AV will take about 18 hours to kill. SE just doesn't know how to scale mobs from not challenging at all....to impossible to kill.
 
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Speculation is where ideas originate. Without ideas, how are any of us ever going to finally beat this thing. What if we finally get a chance to take this sucker on? What we gonna do? Just sit there tryin to figure out a way to beat it AS we are getting beat down? History has shown us that speculators have come up with some of the best ideas which now make our life easier. What did the catholic church do to Galileo when he said that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not the other way around?? Come guys, lets be civil about this ^^b
 
Saying the Nyzul weapons may be needed to take down Warden actually makes things unbelievably worse, since those too have incredibly unreasonable requirements to unlock.

The concept of PW having multiple forms is neat and all, but they should seriously (seriously.) cut down on how many forms he actually has, or at least limit how many times he changes. Anything beyond a 2 or 3-hour fight is pushing it as it is, let alone hitting double digits...I can only pray for the well-being of the LS who endures this bullsh-!t and gets dark crystals and nothing else. -_-


Urat said:
Server wid,e how many people do you even /think/ try and fight AV a day? 5, 6?
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Hey guys, I'm gonna throw together a mean RDM/WAR/WAR/NIN/BRD/BRD cannon to take down AV, who's with me?
 
Putting more people on an NM won't speed up the kill necessarily, and in this case it won't. If you've done minimal endgame beside dynamis sky you'd know that TP feeding is an issue, and mobs that have aoe are an issue. The report from this 18H attempt stated that all lamps have retarded aoe(s) (think chariot/gears) which makes it not possible to put too many melees on them. That's a constant in the ZNM system anyway, NMs have some retarded AOE centered around them that they can use even if the person with hate is out of range, as long one person is in range. It's actually more hurting with 36 than 18..
 
Urat said:
I wanna see this now, where did they say that? link or something?
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I provided a link to the "source" of where I read it on the opening post. Please click on that. And yes, read through all the pages from that link. Also note that a lot of the "quotes" that people have quoted on this topic so far are from that "source" where a lot of them said it was an 18 hour fight and how some of the HNMs took over an hour to kill (Cerberus, Khim, Hydra, etc).
 
Haven't read through all the posts, so forgive me if I missed something. I do think it is possible that there might be something needed to "lock" this thing, keeping it from changing to other forms, or at the very least, maybe weaken each of its' forms, making each of them easier/quicker to kill. One person mentioned that SE either makes nms very easy, or impossible, and in some sense, this is true. That is, the nms that just take melee/blm/healers/tanks to straight up kill turn out to be easy, even if they aren't at first. Too many aoes? Cut down the number of melee's, especially those w/o subtle blow. Hits too hard? Throw a nin or /nin tank at it. Dangerous up close, but not from far? Kite it. Simple tweaks to an otherwise straight foward strategy. Burns were unique when first thought up, but to some it feels like cheating, especially on things that don't require them.

Keep in mind, this thing may be tougher then AV, but it is a LOT easier to set up. AV was a random pop from a mob that takes some effort to pop/kill. This thing is a popped nm, therefore you can set up times to fight this, instead of having to jump on a random spawn. There are already people with a pop set(s), or close to one. These ls's could save up multiples (not like everything otw to it is pointless, I think every tier 4 drops something good/useful for someone, the tier 5 pops are just a bonus to that), then brainstorm, and test this. It may very well be that you have to spend close to a RL day to kill this, which in that case, I will agree with you that it's pointless. However, we don't yet know enough about this mob to know for certain how to beat it (they say they got it to its' final form, but there is no way of knowing yet if after that form, it won't revert to its' first form, maybe a little tougher version of it).

Who knows, in the end, maybe I'm giving SE too much credit, lol.
 
Ewok said:
Haven't read through all the posts, so forgive me if I missed something. I do think it is possible that there might be something needed to "lock" this thing, keeping it from changing to other forms, or at the very least, maybe weaken each of its' forms, making each of them easier/quicker to kill. One person mentioned that SE either makes nms very easy, or impossible, and in some sense, this is true. That is, the nms that just take melee/blm/healers/tanks to straight up kill turn out to be easy, even if they aren't at first. Too many aoes? Cut down the number of melee's, especially those w/o subtle blow. Hits too hard? Throw a nin or /nin tank at it. Dangerous up close, but not from far? Kite it. Simple tweaks to an otherwise straight foward strategy. Burns were unique when first thought up, but to some it feels like cheating, especially on things that don't require them.

Keep in mind, this thing may be tougher then AV, but it is a LOT easier to set up. AV was a random pop from a mob that takes some effort to pop/kill. This thing is a popped nm, therefore you can set up times to fight this, instead of having to jump on a random spawn. There are already people with a pop set(s), or close to one. These ls's could save up multiples (not like everything otw to it is pointless, I think every tier 4 drops something good/useful for someone, the tier 5 pops are just a bonus to that), then brainstorm, and test this. It may very well be that you have to spend close to a RL day to kill this, which in that case, I will agree with you that it's pointless. However, we don't yet know enough about this mob to know for certain how to beat it (they say they got it to its' final form, but there is no way of knowing yet if after that form, it won't revert to its' first form, maybe a little tougher version of it).

Who knows, in the end, maybe I'm giving SE too much credit, lol.
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Amen!
 
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