PLD with strategy question

Braydon

Braydon

I ♥ Boobs
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Joined
Dec 2, 2004
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940
Age
44
I have a question for the community at large:

I was in a weird party the other day. The whm, who got leader after I got invited, annoced to the party that he hates paladins. Thinking to myself “Oh good”, I didn’t let it phase me.

Then he invites a ninja/blm to be our tank, which is where my problems started. They instructed me to try and get agro away from the ninja. The whm, having no faith in Plds, though I couldn’t do it. Well, I could about 85% of the time, but I burned through MP like a motherf***er. After both the Nin and I lost aggro, the whm died(no reraise) and started in on me again, now asking me to cure the ninja.
I left soon after.

What would have been the optimal strategy with a Ninja/ Pld combo?

Here was our battle strategy:
Thf pulls,
I (pld) voke it off thf
THF SATA’s of Ninja
At this point, my job was to get aggro back.

I’m thinking that the optimal would have been to let the ninja get agro, and got hate nuts if he lost aggro, but I dunno. I felt like I was holding aggro by a thread most of the tim, which I don't like at all.
 
I would have the Nin be a DMG dealer set to nuke and do their special debuffs and have you full out tank, maybe he pulls hate at the start with an offensive spell and SATA offa you to solidify hate.
 
well if the whm dont believe in the PLD, and like NIN better, let him be that way. and have him be with "Blink" tank rest of his life
i will just leave the PT
 
Direwolf has it exactly right: the nin/blm should get hate after the thf pulls, then the thf should SATA onto you.

I wasn't there, but my guess is the reason that you had a hard time keeping hate is because you couldn't cure yourself BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T TAKING DAMAGE. Cure spells generate alot of hate. Sure, you can heal the nin, but if he needs so much curing from the whm that the whm grabs hate, then it's just not working with the nin tank. If you can cure yourself, voke and Flash--you will be a hate magnet.

Example: I'm playing as PLD 41 in CN with thf/nin, mnk/sam, whm/blm, rdm/blm, and smn/whm. The pt set-up is ok despite lack of a blm and only one consistent DD (the mnk). The plan is for the thf/nin to pull, the mnk/sam to hit and get hate, then the thf will SATA off me. We don't have a 2nd voker, so everyone needs to sit tight until SATA is done.
Our real problem is that the mages can't seem to lay off the spells long enough for SATA to go off. So they get hate right off the bat, and the SATA is ruined about 90% of the time.
The thf and mnk know what they are doing, but I can't seem to get the mages to listen to me. But it's not a problem for a PLD/WAR. I when the SATA is ruined, I just voke > Flash > cure 3 and then cure 2 or 3 as needed. I still have shield bash, sentinal and cover if needed. I even get the thf to start to SATA off the mnk near the end of the fights to help finish off the mobs. Even then I rarely lose hate and still have cover when I do lose it.

My point being: the cure spells generated most of that hate.
 
People here made some very valid points. I definitely agree that after THF pull, the NIN/BLM should have pulled hate so you could be SA/TA'd on. Afterwards, the party should have worked together so that the mob would stay on you. Of course, if the battles were long, the NIN/BLM could steal hate from you so the THF could SATA again.

PLDs are really only useful as tanks. So if there's a PLD in a party, then he or she should tank. If you're going to designate another member as a tank, then might as well not have the PLD (in exp PTs).

Also, as you know, PLDs (NINs too) require the party's cooperation to work. Of course, you need to make every effort to gather as much hate as possible, or in some situations maintain enough hate and let go so that the mob can be turned around so that you could be SATA'd on.

So while PLDs are chiefly responsible for hate management in parties, they are not the only ones responsible.
 
i was in the same pt as braydon i believe as a rng?
there is absolutely nothing wrong with pld(i am a 70 pld) however, its faster xp when a nin tanks. with the nin/blm, the pld got first voke then the thf sata onto the nin/blm. the blm kept hate by using blm spells as well as nin tools to keep hate. kept hate quite well i might add. that was actually one of the better pts ive had even though the setup was a tad odd.
 
I disagree with Master, personally, I would have left the pt as soon as the WHM said they hate PLDs. and yet again, personally, PLD would have been main tank regardless. I know blink tanks are nice and what not, but when mobs have double attack, or are of the mnk class, unless it's a NIN/WAR, they're not keeping hate, or living very long, At least this is what i have seen. Most of the blink tanks I've been in pts with as a DRG/WAR weren't sufficient in keeping blink up. Even with me or someone else voking, they'd eithre voke right back, or take too long to cast. Eh, this is just my stance as a DD. I prefer PLDs as tanks, NINs as pullers. <Thank you>
 
masterorion1 said:
i was in the same pt as braydon i believe as a rng?
there is absolutely nothing wrong with pld(i am a 70 pld) however, its faster xp when a nin tanks. with the nin/blm, the pld got first voke then the thf sata onto the nin/blm. the blm kept hate by using blm spells as well as nin tools to keep hate. kept hate quite well i might add. that was actually one of the better pts ive had even though the setup was a tad odd.
Click to expand...

Legolas(the Nin/BLM) was awsome. But I definetly had hate on me a majority of the time.
 
I'm sorry but you're all failing to see something very important here.

Hate is based on comparison not transfer. For nin/blm to tank, he must have more hate than everyone else. Without provoke, his possibility for hate is very low. You were asked to not take hate from Ninja, but that ninja had very little means to generate hate. therefore you must generate very little hate. I don't care how good you want to claim the ninja is. If you want to be tank, fuggin sub war. If the whitemage wants his damn blink tank, invite a nin/war not a nin/blm. A nin/blm can take damage but can't generate hate.
The point being, the WHM was a dumbass who doesn't know a god damn thing about hate management but makes blanket statements about 1 job being better than the other. His own stupidity got him killed.
 
Try spamming 6 elemental debuffs spells that do 110 damage each, one after another, and repeat, and tell me that a NIN/BLM can not keep hate...
With haste equip+ haste you will be able to repeat this process as much as possible, depending on how many tools you have on you.
The party I admit had a bad setup, the THF had no DEX or AGI gear whatsoever. So SATA was pretty much useless.
I never got hate from the SATA.
It was the elemental debuff spells that got the hate off the pally.
So it was pretty much me and braydon changing turns tanking.
NIN/NLM is meant for nuking, not for tanking. I made that clear when I joined the party. We were a lvl 43 party that took down helm beetles.
200+ exp. I do not think a normal lvl 43 party could do that.
Only reason I came as NIN/BLM is because I knew there was a PLD to help keep hate, and that Braydon did very well.
Most of the other members were noobs that did not know what they were doing.
I was talking in /tells most of the time with Braydon concerning hate and the WHM's comments.
As I told him in-game also, as a NIN/BLM with mostly INT equip I cannot dodge as many attacks as NIN/WAR with AGI and eva equip.
So Braydon's job in the party was to keep hate as much as possible. while I nuke the mobs.
I could just take a couple of hits if the Pally lost hate to me.
IMO PLD are better at tanking cuz of the more "tools" they have to gain hate.
I was not in the party when the WHM said that she did not like paladins, and I would have probably said something if I had seen her/him (it was a good while ago) say that.
 
Nin/blm can't keep hate, I reiterate. It's not the fault of the Nin/blm, meaning you. It's just the reality of the situation. Spam all the ninjutsu you want I refuse to believe you can tank without voke every thirty seconds. You already said you weren't there to tank and I doubt if you were you'd have showed up as blm sub no? That elemental ninjutsu stuff is great, and I've seen it with war sub and with blm sub first hand. The difference is not all that great, and war sub can do it on top of provoke. All of that, and ninjas often have hate problems. Defense is their strong point, hate is their weak point.

Just as an example to prove my point. Have you ever tried fighting a high level HNM with a PLD and a NIN at the same time? The nin will normally tank for as long as possible. If hate is lost, the PLD provokes it and tries to pull back. The pld normally will pull so much hate in the mere act of getting it off a soft member that the nin has trouble getting hate back for quit some time. The whitemage has to heal the paladin, therefore the paladin must raise hate further. Seeing the picture?

The WHM was insistant on having a Nin without voke tanking, therefore that became the high limit for the party. Any actions behind that would include massive massive complications. BLM overnukes, Nin can't voke it off. PLD must nuke. PLD must be healed. PLD must gain more hate or the whm healing him dies. The relationship of the PLD's hate to the WHM has everything to do with that of the PLD and NIN. Whoever has most hate wins. It's that friggin simple. The WHM failed to see that anyone you heal must be able to generate more hate than you, or you become the default tank. If he didn't grasp that by his level his death was well deserved.
 
this is stupid

who was the NOOB WHM that said he hated paladin's...

i fuckin' want names...

NAMES DAMMIT

NAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Paladin's are just fine. I partied with them, from level 30- about level 60 straight. The odd time I would have a NIN for a tank, and that would be just great. It's so easy with Ustu: NI. NIN will take few damage before he/she recasts it. I love NIN tanks. Paladin's are just fine. Just more work involved ^^;. You probably just had a lazy ass WHM who doesn't like to do much work.
 
I can see how whm can prefer nin, less work. But personnally, I much much prefer a pld tanking. As a DRK, every time I partied with NIN tank, I keep stealing hate. So in the end, the whm still has to work more and cure me... oh wait, no they don't.....

Other thing that will happen is the party will ask me to slow down, like turn away for a few secs, not use Berserk, not use absorb-str. Wtf, I'm a DRK, I dish out damage.

PLD tank, I can unload, NIN tank, I get all the hate or hold back. Then again, maybe I just never partied with a good nin tank.
 
I have never been in a pt with a NIN/BLM tank, so I can't comment on them overall. But the senario presented included the whm asking the pld to heal the NIN because the whm was getting too much hate while casting. Enough said.
 
Tell the idiot white mage to get a clue, maybe I'm not at a high enough level yet. But right now at level 48, I lose hate to no one. Even if the THF SATA's off of another party member at some point during the fight I've got the hate back on me. And that applies to DRK's ;p

Though I'm not being cocky in my ability since you don't exactly need skill to be a Paladin, just spam Provoke/Flash/Cure spells.

But whoever said that thing about the NIN casting 6 spells off the bat doing 110 damage. I figure on a decent enemy, his blink tanking isn't going to last long enough to pull off 6 spells without being hit, which case. Like all NIN tanks he spams with "OMG PROVOKE, PROVOKE, PROVOKE" It's quite annoying. ^^

I'd rather have ( and be) someone who can take low but consistent damage to everyone else, and be able to hold and generate hate. Than be someone who relies on a skill to keep them safe and then lose 1/4th of their HP as soon as the mob lands one or two hits.

But once more, as I said I'm below level 50 so I can't comment on what it will be like beyond those levels. So sorry if some people find this post to be ill informed, or a flame attempt on NIN's.

I'd end up telling the guy to find another member instead of me, because really, there's no point in having a Paladin in a party if he isn't tanking. o.O;

"To each their own", is what it boils down to in this case, I guess. ^^/ Sad truth.
 
The WHMs that prefer NIN tanking in their parties always make me laugh.
They really should realize that optimal NIN tanking parties dont really need WHM too (and certainly not a PLD ... or a Taru PLD/WHM as main healer / backup tank) ...
 
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