POL News: All Worlds Maintenance

[Everlasting]

dunno, SE chooses a crappy way to get some where? And how do we know it's not happening to anything else? Do you know of anything else that connects the same path as a particular zone? I personally don't. Also a packet lost somewhere isn't as bad, as when it is lost in a videogame. If packets are lost in a video game you are gonna be disconnected from the game, in case it's a hacking attempt or anything else of the sort. In other types of software you are just losing a packet that will get resend, and probably will go through a new path to get to you.

Any UDP based application that passes through the supposed problematic area would see the same problems.

If the problem is in say Russia wouldn't we be hearing about it now due to a large number of applications being broken? Wouldn't we see something on InternetWeatherReport? A backbone problem that somehow only effects FFXI doesn't make any sense to me.

If the problem is with SE's network or the first hop or two after it then it's SE's problem, they did not investigate well enough.

Quick question: Was the packet encryption intact? If so that's all packaged up by SE's servers. How could an encrypted packet become corrupted yet you can decrypt it? I've never been able to decrypt corrupted files.

If the encryption is intact then the actual data inside is what you're saying is bad and in that case it's SE's fault.

 

[Artem]

Any UDP based application that passes through the supposed problematic area would see the same problems.

If the problem is in say Russia wouldn't we be hearing about it now due to a large number of applications being broken? Wouldn't we see something on InternetWeatherReport? A backbone problem that somehow only effects FFXI doesn't make any sense to me.

If the problem is with SE's network or the first hop or two after it then it's SE's problem, they did not investigate well enough.

Quick question: Was the packet encryption intact? If so that's all packaged up by SE's servers. How could an encrypted packet become corrupted yet you can decrypt it? I've never been able to decrypt corrupted files.

If the encryption is intact then the actual data inside is what you're saying is bad and in that case it's SE's fault.

Okay you tell me, in last year there were several backbone failures across the world. Can you tell me what they area? lol... it's not like this kind of stuff goes on Fox "Backbone in Russia collapsed"

not everything has to be go through the same backbone to get to the same location.

I'm going to say this for everyone in clear space

Other programs use a different path to reach you when a packet is lost. SE DOES NOT RESET THE WAY EACH SUB-SERVER SENDS YOU THE PACKETS UNLESS YOUR IP HAS CHANGED. That means if the packets are lost they aren't reset. They will keep sending the wrong way, pretty dumb I know, but saves processing power.

 

[Everlasting]

Okay you tell me, in last year there were several backbone failures across the world. Can you tell me what they area? lol... it's not like this kind of stuff goes on Fox "Backbone in Russia collapsed"

not everything has to be go through the same backbone to get to the same location.

I'm going to say this for everyone in clear space

Other programs use a different path to reach you when a packet is lost. SE DOES NOT RESET THE WAY EACH SUB-SERVER SENDS YOU THE PACKETS UNLESS YOUR IP HAS CHANGED. That means if the packets are lost they aren't reset. They will keep sending the wrong way, pretty dumb I know, but saves processing power.

Have you ever seen InternetWeatherReport or any of the other web sites devoted to the health of the internet? You won't see it on Fox but you will see it there...

Your last statement is incorrect. The client has NO IDEA of the route the packet will take to reach its destination, it only knows the next hop.

Please answer my question about the encryption.

 

[Uzor]

I don't think there's any use trying to explain it Artem. I attempted to do that for like 14 pages <.<; They'll keep askign the same questions that's already been answered. All I got from trying to explain and help them were people calling me a moron and saying I don't know what I'm talking about, and that its obviously SE's fault.

I'm sure you're more knowledgable then me on the issue,but I still don't think you'll be able to convince them that its not SE's fault. they kept asking me the same questins I already answered and accused me of saying things I never said. i'm sure they'll do the same to you ~.~

 

[Ubuntu]

I think SE should provide us free VPN access for the interim lol

The problem might not necessarily be in the application layer. If it's in the 3 or 4 layer like the traffic shaping problem vonage's been having with various ISPs... than... um... idk lol

Anyhow, have anyone try using a Socks5 public proxy from Japan and connect from there? but yeah... would be nice to have VPN access to japan

guys have you read my post? lol

it's hard to trouble shoot a Toyota in US from Japan lol

Seriously, has anyone tried a public proxy (socks5)?

 

[Everlasting]

Alright, I'll check back later to see if Art has responded to his paradox of a statement.

If the encrypted FFXI data is corrupt then it's SE's fault. A router along the way cannot magically break SE's encryption, corrupt the FFXI data inside then re-encrypt it and send it on its way. If the encrypted packet itself is corrupted then you wouldn't be able to decrypt it, this holds true for *any* application that uses any type of encryption.

You two have fun stroking each other's backbones, I'll leave you alone for a while.

 

[Ruffyreborn]

none of this is SE's fault, its all your fault for trying to DL the update while everyone else did. The people not having problems downloaded earlier in the day when they werent clogged. Why the hell do you think people head trouble downloading it, and it took so long later on??

 

[Ruffyreborn]

Alright, I'll check back later to see if Art has responded to his paradox of a statement.

If the encrypted FFXI data is corrupt then it's SE's fault. A router along the way cannot magically break SE's encryption, corrupt the FFXI data inside then re-encrypt it and send it on its way. If the encrypted packet itself is corrupted then you wouldn't be able to decrypt it, this holds true for *any* application that uses any type of encryption.

You two have fun stroking each other's backbones, I'll leave you alone for a while.

its a simple matter of "if it was SE's fault, then everyone would be affected." Simple as that. And you know what? Everyone isnt affected.

 

[Everlasting]

If it is some type of traffic shaping it was implemented at the exact same time that FFXI was updated, and the odds are sharply against that.

 

[Dowzer]

I don't think there's any use trying to explain it Artem. I attempted to do that for like 14 pages <.<; They'll keep askign the same questions that's already been answered. All I got from trying to explain and help them were people calling me a moron and saying I don't know what I'm talking about, and that its obviously SE's fault.

I'm sure you're more knowledgable then me on the issue,but I still don't think you'll be able to convince them that its not SE's fault. they kept asking me the same questins I already answered and accused me of saying things I never said. i'm sure they'll do the same to you ~.~

I don't think it's anything personal...It seems like people would rather hear this from Square than their fellow players.

Which you should know is totally understandable. Especially when said people don't know exactly what you are talking about.

When you "dumb" it down for us, it actually really helps. The vast majority of us don't even know what a MAC address is, let alone how packets are sent/received.

Basically, you said the "server" inbetween players and Square isn't paid for by Square. That sent a clear message (to me) that SE has no control over this "server" being fixed in a short period of time, it could take weeks like the past Russian backbone issue.

 

[Sharpe]

I don't think there's any use trying to explain it Artem. I attempted to do that for like 14 pages <.<; They'll keep askign the same questions that's already been answered. All I got from trying to explain and help them were people calling me a moron and saying I don't know what I'm talking about, and that its obviously SE's fault.

STFU Uzor, i'm sick of every post you put on here, you make yourself sound like some sort of all knowing being when in fact you're far from it.

 

[Artem]

I can't even say what I said is 100% true, that's what I have decided after my own research. Believe me or not.

quoting myself here...

Seriously, I don't care if you believe me or not. I stated my opinion on the issue, if you think it's invalid, you may disregard it. If you think it's SE fucking up their own code, I have to say 1. why update networking code on a version update (seems like something you'd need a full day maintenance for just that particular part) 2. if SE is corrupting their own packets, than everyone would be having problems.

For those two reason I don't believe, the problem lies in SE's internal framework. I'm not going to argue anything or prove that I'm right. Maybe I'm not right. I don't work for SE, it's not my job to know the problem for sure. Frankly though, my view on the problem is a lot more realistic than most of what was said in this thread. Take it with a grain of salt, if I'm wrong, I'll admit to it.

 

[Zyndara]

none of this is SE's fault, its all your fault for trying to DL the update while everyone else did. The people not having problems downloaded earlier in the day when they werent clogged. Why the hell do you think people head trouble downloading it, and it took so long later on??

its a simple matter of "if it was SE's fault, then everyone would be affected." Simple as that. And you know what? Everyone isnt affected.

Two things: 1) I had no problem downloading the update whatsoever. In fact, I was gone the majority of the day and downloaded it well into the day after the update so it's not like this is a congestion issue with the download. 2) Saying SE isn't at fault or has nothing to do with the issue because everyone isn't affected by the problem is a bad argument. Any time they do maintenance or an update, they talk about "fixing" problems which haven't necessarily affected me although I may play that job or use the same system. To say everyone has to be having the problem for it to be SE's issue is just really, very inaccurate. It may not be SE's problem. I'm not on their end, so I don't know. But the bottom line is it has happened to too many people under very different playing conditions for it to be blown off by SE.

 

[Uzor]

If it is some type of traffic shaping it was implemented at the exact same time that FFXI was updated, and the odds are sharply against that.

Because if they replaced their network gear with, they'd all have new MAC addresses. And in that case, you need to find it again, which results in your packages taking a different route.

And like Artem said, and I said aswell, there's no "server" that everything gets sent to. Every region on every server have a different set of computers with a gateway leading to them. When this gateway is replaced, it results in this gateway having a different MAC. Thus resulting in you only DC'ing in specific areas. Mainly the ones in which your packages are sent through the faulty route.

 

[Uzor]

STFU Uzor, i'm sick of every post you put on here, you make yourself sound like some sort of all knowing being when in fact you're far from it.

I haven't once said I'm a know-it-all. I'll take that as a compliment if you think I know a lot, though. I do, however, speak my oppinion a lot. I rarely speak about things I know I don't know anything about, such as american politics, and quite a lot of other things.

As for this DC'ing issue, me and Artem seem to share the same oppinion for once. And since me, artem and a few others seem to know about networking, and all of us seem to be of the oppinion that its not SE's fault, I'm sticking with it being a backbone problem.

Oh, and Dowzer, what was that about not anything personal? Although I already know Shapiro have something against me. He /blisted me in-game

 

[acts]

Ok! For everyone who doesn't understand all this, I made some graphics to help:

Here is what Artem is saying:

The SE FFXI Servers are self-explanatory, multiple computers comprise vanadiel. You are at home on your computer. Me is at home at my computer.
The Internet is made up of small ISPs that all hook up to a backbone. Think of it as America's roads with many small roads that lead to the bigger Interstates. UPS travels across those roads. So does the information between computers.

See the big black circle where the connection is broken? Now Follow the paths.

Me - I can get to Windy easy, my computer for some reason makes me go the green route to FFXI Server and Back. However, if I follow the purple, It sends the information but never gets back to me, thus I can't seem to get into Sandy.

You - For some reason your packets get routed, based on your IP/where you are, for both Windy AND Sandy through that broken area. Well, sucks to be you, because you can't get those packet informations back.

So you're sending information to the server, but somewhere on the way back, you can't get any of that information, so ultimately the game drops you.

In this scenario, a lot of people have been toying with MAC Addresses and changing IPs. Changing IPs can help because it may change the way you route your way to the server and back, and fix those problems. BUT, now you run the risk of possibly re-routing how you got to bastok computer.

Think of it as UPS trying to find the quickest best route to deliver information and packages to and from your home to your destination.

Here's Scenario 2:

Information is sent along those lines from the first graphic in little packets. It's like shipping letter after letter from UPS across the nation, and you collect all the letters and it forms a book telling you what to do.
Somewhere along the line back, the packets destination, or the header, or something related to it is all messed up so it never comes back to you. For example you send all the letters across the nation, but they address it to you at the wrong address. Well, now you never get any of those letters back. Or maybe you do get the letters back, but the content is all junk, and you have the wrong letters you need.
That's also a possibility. In fact we don't know the code, or how it's done, so we don't really know anything at this point.

In fact, we basically don't know. It's all speculation what the problem is. Hell it could be a combination of both issues. Whatever problem is we need to remain calm and wait it out. BUT, SE could handle it better by addressing customers and not tossing us to the side. Also, for the record they were mum about it the whole weekend. I left Saturday morning and they didn't admit to it, I came back late sunday night and they still didn't. They only started fessing up to problems monday morning.

 

[Everlasting]

quoting myself here...

Seriously, I don't care if you believe me or not. I stated my opinion on the issue, if you think it's invalid, you may disregard it. If you think it's SE fucking up their own code, I have to say 1. why update networking code on a version update (seems like something you'd need a full day maintenance for just that particular part) 2. if SE is corrupting their own packets, than everyone would be having problems.

For those two reason I don't believe, the problem lies in SE's internal framework. I'm not going to argue anything or prove that I'm right. Maybe I'm not right. I don't work for SE, it's not my job to know the problem for sure. Frankly though, my view on the problem is a lot more realistic than most of what was said in this thread. Take it with a grain of salt, if I'm wrong, I'll admit to it.

The "research" you did is impossible as I explained before. Either you're not telling the whole story or you're lying, I still don't understand why you won't address my point if you feel you're so right and have done this "research". If you did what you said you did then answering my question is very simple and will help everyone get one step closer to determining what the actual problem is, why aren't you?

You make multiple updates at the same time to reduce downtime. It's foolish to have two separate downtimes when you can do everything during one. I'm not sure what makes you think it would take an entire day to update the encryption.

Here's a nifty idea for you: What if only say 20 of their 100 servers are somehow sending out bad data? I've worked with load balanced web servers where one server has the new page and the other one still has the old page. Guess what happened? Only *some* people have the problem yet it was our problem!

Uzor, MAC address has nothing to do with routing, they are very far removed from each other as far as networking is concered.

What's making this frustrating is both you and Uzor have incomplete or incorrect knowledge and are aruging based on that. You continue to make points based off incorrect assumptions and don't address my legitimate questions.

 

[Ruffyreborn]

Two things: 1) I had no problem downloading the update whatsoever. In fact, I was gone the majority of the day and downloaded it well into the day after the update so it's not like this is a congestion issue with the download. 2) Saying SE isn't at fault or has nothing to do with the issue because everyone isn't affected by the problem is a bad argument. Any time they do maintenance or an update, they talk about "fixing" problems which haven't necessarily affected me although I may play that job or use the same system. To say everyone has to be having the problem for it to be SE's issue is just really, very inaccurate. It may not be SE's problem. I'm not on their end, so I don't know. But the bottom line is it has happened to too many people under very different playing conditions for it to be blown off by SE.

I understand what you mean.

But (boldened text) its just as much a bad accusation to be saying it IS SE's fault. Theyre a professional company, they have admitted to their problems before, and I dont think they would hide having this one, since its so large. I do believe it to be client side, because several people have fixed the problem just by changing their IP. I believe if it was server side, this change wouldnt have fixed jack for the client. But everyone (or near everyone) that downloaded on the day the update was released (before 2-4pm EST) has no problems whatsoever.

 

[Zephayra]

I love your graphics Acts.

 

[Artem]

I have no incentive of proving anything to you. If you don't believe, great! I'm not arguing for my point, all I did was state it. Now from what I can see from your questions you have the knowledge of encryption and packet analysis that is equivalent to that of the respective Wiki post. I don't see a reason of going out of my way how it's not impossible to recognize and work with some corrupted encoded code.

You already made up your mind that I'm wrong. Me saying anything will not make you change your mind. It will just end up in me explaining more technical stuff than I want to.

Why is it so hard for people to understand that some people are just offering their own opinion and don't really care to argue for it?