POLNews - GM Policy (12th December)*Update* - continued from the other thread

[Burne]

Learn the difference between an argument/debate and flaming material. If this is all it takes to get you rattled, get a helmet.

Someone with no idea what constitutes as flameworthy, which was challenged and then repealed.

Where do you get this stuff from?

 

[RoM]

Where do you get this stuff from?

I'm an asshole. I make brash judgements about people i've not seen around and half-heartedly belittle them off the cuff, my bad. You got caught in the crossfire.

 

[Uzor]

It's amazing that you haven't bothered to note that you're arguing against your own point to me. The entirety of my point is that the sum of all resources on the game are founded on breaks in the ToS. There is no getting around it. Thusly, by your argument everything outside of the game would be cheating. This was hellstorms point as well, anything extraneous to the game could technicly be considered cheating as it was not information gathered as SE had intended.

No, I'm not arguing against my point. My point is that Parser is against the ToS and can be considered a cheat program. I haven't seen me argue against that point anywhere. I don't use the traditionall argumentative methods that most people use, though.

For me it's just about the black and white crowd and where they feel like drawing the line. As far as the parser goes i happen to consider it just slightly above hitting a site for a guide, i'm not out to make converts out of people. As most popular guides aren't player written in the slightest you're railing on and on about it is basicly moot, you're out in left field. As the top sites/guides used save the liscenced ones (of which there are none, why hello thar third party) are datamined for quick content upgrades which can then be listed i would move that, by your fundamental denial of the grey area, everything forthcoming of that information that is playerbase is founded on a cheat.

Please do show me a guide that isn't player written and only taken from in-game data mining. I'd love to see one.

There's no need to bust it down to simple little things like where to find a quest, the entire site is, at base, a foundation of cheating if we're to hold to the standards you, lavi, and hellstorm have argued. It's not as if we're talking about something blatantly beneficial like a fleetol, POS, etc. It's just helpful data from a local source as opposed to your tried and true FFXI guide/site.

The entire site isn't based on cheating, as most guides are player written based on their own experience.

As i stated before the cheat is in the eyes of the beholder. What i call good research and a natural, almost essential, part of any RPG (paying attention and research) you call cheating. I counter by applying your moral standard to every aspect of outside information that the game all but requires to be playable with any efficiency and you get a sore vagina.

No, I don't call it cheating. I call parser cheating. If you do it all by hand I'll applaud you, because that is research and paying attention. Opening a bot to do it all for you can't hardly be called paying attention.

As i see it based on the sample of people arguing your point ... all 3 of you, there's not much more effort worth putting in to it. Deny, as is your right. In a world where what is virtual is open to interpretation both moralisticly and legally there is no absolute on the issue of outside information resources and their relevance to cheating it's all a matter of perspective and will continue to be until the end of time.

I can't do anything but laugh at the bolded section. What am I denying? The only person I see denying something is you denying parser can be considered cheating.

Edit: Here, you're good with attempts at belittling. I'll help you out with your argument: There is 'As defined by SE' and then there is 'As defined'. Oh snap that makes me techincly correct again, the best kind of correct. Keep at it, you'll figure this all out someday.

Considering this game is owned by SE, there is only one defined. By SE.

Oh, snap. That makes me technically correct again, the best kind of correct. Keep at it, you'll figure this all out someday.

Let's try another.

You: 'All knowledge that is not firsthand is ill-gotten.'
Me: 'Not to posess knowledge outside oneself is mindless.'

Both valid answers, both from different perspective. You assume that i assume you're wrong simply because i think you're a tightass on the moral issue. Truth is i'd rather just not give ya a pat on the back over it, you've got arms use em.

Both are valid answers because both are different oppinions. I'm arguing my oppinion, you're arguing mine. The goal isn't to prove the other person is wrong, far from it. I think you're arguing without a goal, which is why you keep repeating the same things. It really is quite meaningless having an argument with someone that keeps repeating the same things as you are.

Edit: As for everything being against the ToS, I do believe I've already stated several things not against the ToS. And I haven't contradicted myself on those points either. Perhaps your meaningless counter-argument comes from you now knowing what my point or your own points really are?

 

[Tomasello]

Excuse me for butting in, guys, but if quest text and hit/miss damage text are both accessible to all players in-game, how does "parsing" come off labeled as "cheating" while "datamining" is not? Keep in mind, I'm approaching this from the perspective of datamining being considered "analysis of game data."

I think SE thinks of Parsing as something similar to card counting in a casino. While on the surface there seems to be nothing inherently wrong by sitting there looking at numbers, it does give you an advantage over another player who otherwise does not have access to the data you have and and has to make a more educated guess over which weapon to use etc.

I tend to agree. Fraps on the other hand, I don't really see any more harm in that then in Ventrillo. One is voice software the other is video. Unless they think someone would start analysing the dmg output on video and start had crunching numbers. Which is pretty stupid considering if someone were to go to those lengths it would be a lot easier to just download a parser.

 

[RoM]

Again, as stated. Waste of time. My point does not escape you because it is flawed, it escapes you because your point is all that matters and you live in some jaded little world where you get to have your cake and eat it too, go you. Go lick your wounds with the moral minority, you folks have already been laughed off the board on this topic.

 

[Flameass]

If they didn't want you to parse, why would they even make their client save logs on your computer?

 

[Garvin]

I gotta lol that you keep calling it a bot, Uzor. A specialized tool to perform calculations outside of the game isn't a bot, what is wrong with you? You still have yet to explain why my example, though it will probably never happen due to the difficulty of it all, is not cheating, but parser is.

Both are automated.
Both calculate the same things.
Both work from the exact same source. (A live recording of the chat log will turn out exactly the same as the files it is saved to)

One arguably violates the terms of service, and suddenly becomes cheating, an advantage which is unfair.

The other does not, yet accomplishes the exact same thing automatically in the exact same manner, yet the advantage it grants, according to what you have said, is fair.

Explain this. I can. Here's a tip: Things that may violate the terms of service are not automatically "cheating". Especially ones that do it on a technicality.

I can see why SE wouldn't want people to dig into the game .dats. That makes sense on several levels, and is information intended to be unavailable to the player. It's gonna get spied on though, that's pretty much a consequence of making it client side. They'd need to encrypt it to do otherwise pretty much. Log data however, is a stored version of information that WAS presented to the player, in the format it was presented. It consists entirely of things the player has seen. Nothing else.

I'm done with this, the mentality of dragging everything else down is kind of annoying, I've seen it before, and it's majorly depressing to see you with it, for some reason. Adios.

 

[Marajade]

If they didn't want you to parse, why would they even make their client save logs on your computer?

They're stored for GM acess. But they arent even encrypted remotly.

 

[Skaw]

They're stored for GM acess. But they arent even encrypted remotly.

Partly. I'm sure theres serverside logs, as this games client-side don't log too much data. Past 200 lines or so of chat I'd say(all together, not per log.) With some GM calls, 200 lines goes in the blink of an eye compared to when you get your response.

 

[Uzor]

Again, as stated. Waste of time. My point does not escape you because it is flawed, it escapes you because your point is all that matters and you live in some jaded little world where you get to have your cake and eat it too, go you. Go lick your wounds with the moral minority, you folks have already been laughed off the board on this topic.

I never once said my point is all that matters. And if you don't care about your point, then why do you keep arguing? Your oppinion is flawed.

I gotta lol that you keep calling it a bot, Uzor. A specialized tool to perform calculations outside of the game isn't a bot, what is wrong with you? You still have yet to explain why my example, though it will probably never happen due to the difficulty of it all, is not cheating, but parser is.

Because it does it automatically, with log files saved from in-game. Isn't that what a bot do, work fully automated requiring no input fro mthe user?

Both are automated.
Both calculate the same things.
Both work from the exact same source. (A live recording of the chat log will turn out exactly the same as the files it is saved to)

If you used FRAPS to record it, then yes, it would be against the ToS. But since a hand-held camera isn't against the ToS, it's not breaking the ToS.

One arguably violates the terms of service, and suddenly becomes cheating, an advantage which is unfair.

Cheating, yes. Parser do give an unfair advantage, albeit extremely small. But even doing something minor that gives you even the slightest advantage is still cheating. Calculating your exp/hour doesn't really give you an unfair advantage, now does it?

The other does not, yet accomplishes the exact same thing automatically in the exact same manner, yet the advantage it grants, according to what you have said, is fair.

Parser does give an unfair advantage since it does it fully automated. If you record something with a hand-held camera, then that involves something you're doing by hand (recording). Thus, the work is yours. While yes, it does perform the same function, you did something by hand. Everything you do outside of your computer means you do it by yourself, and SE can't controll that. It automatically becomes "your work".

Although using that as an example is rather useless, since no one won't ever bother programing something that you're using as an example.

Explain this. I can. Here's a tip: Things that may violate the terms of service are not automatically "cheating". Especially ones that do it on a technicality.

I never said everything is automatically cheating. I said parser is cheating because it gives a slight advantage.

I can see why SE wouldn't want people to dig into the game .dats. That makes sense on several levels, and is information intended to be unavailable to the player. It's gonna get spied on though, that's pretty much a consequence of making it client side. They'd need to encrypt it to do otherwise pretty much. Log data however, is a stored version of information that WAS presented to the player, in the format it was presented. It consists entirely of things the player has seen. Nothing else.
[/quoted]

Yes. But they don't read it from the in-game log to calculate it themselves. They make a program read the saved logs to do it fully automated. Thus requiring no effort from the user.

I'm done with this, the mentality of dragging everything else down is kind of annoying, I've seen it before, and it's majorly depressing to see you with it, for some reason. Adios.

Since when am I draggign everything else down? I'm saying parser is cheating. You're trying to make yourself feel better by saying parser is't a cheat. Thus making you play 100% clean. Whatever makes you feel better man.

Anyway, I'm off to bed. g'night.

 

[Garvin]

You're trying to make yourself feel better by saying parser is't a cheat. Thus making you play 100% clean. Whatever makes you feel better man.

I don't use the parser. Or windower for that matter, no need to.
Good night.

 

[hellstorm]

If they didn't want you to parse, why would they even make their client save logs on your computer?

you be amazed how much is client side, if I rember right it had something to do with ffxi being on ps2 as well as pc.

 

[hellstorm]

I think SE thinks of Parsing as something similar to card counting in a casino. While on the surface there seems to be nothing inherently wrong by sitting there looking at numbers, it does give you an advantage over another player who otherwise does not have access to the data you have and and has to make a more educated guess over which weapon to use etc.

I tend to agree. Fraps on the other hand, I don't really see any more harm in that then in Ventrillo. One is voice software the other is video. Unless they think someone would start analysing the dmg output on video and start had crunching numbers. Which is pretty stupid considering if someone were to go to those lengths it would be a lot easier to just download a parser.

About the whole Fraps thing, the only legal thing they could do to you with an actual reason behind it is get you for Copyright infringement because on fraps it doesn't have the official logo such as the Screenshots from ingame do.

pretty much what blaze said. It a copy right infringement. Good analogy with the card counting = parser

 

[Skaw]

No, card counting wasn't a good analogy. While similiar, Parsing causes no damages. Card Counting causes damages to the House, in taking money from their banks, and the players around them. Other cheats are damaging to the game while giving one or a group of players a clear advantage, solely to be used by them. Parsing gives one player an "advantage," causes no damage to any other player, as well as becomes an "advantage" for the rest of the community by showing clear cut differences in equipment over long periods of time.

To think otherwise is just foolish. It's as advantageous as reading a book while looking for party, compared to the guy bitching about having nothing to do while in the same situation.

 

[RoM]

I never once said my point is all that matters. And if you don't care about your point, then why do you keep arguing? Your oppinion is flawed.

Example? I've seen a ton thrown at you to illustrate how skewed your view is.

The nature of my opinion is that it cannot be flawed as, and follow me closely here there non-standard argument style guy...

A. It's an opinion.
B. It allows for everyone's opinion and does not require anyyone's opinion to substantiate or validate it but my own.
C. My moral application can withstand any topic it relates to.

In short, grey can't be wrong. It's how it is on large. Just because you live in a black and white world doesn't mean that at base you're not full of shit and can't apply the same moral sets to one situation as another. I can, it's called clarity. I've no need to get indignant simply because you disagree, this is where we differ. It does not, however, make me any less full of shit. It goes both ways, hence opinion and not fact. This is the nature of a moral argument, it's case specific from the perspective of the participants.

It's a personal call how far you want to go calling something a cheat. At base calling the parser cheating is the same as someone calling you at cheating on an open book test. The information is widely available both online and off. If relevence is your issue, as opposed to hell's hang up on hauby's and third partys (hello guides) then the same must be true if someone were to work out the information for themselves as it's not intended by SE for you to know the exact formula even though it's written in every line of combat. Therefore your logic is flawed by the standard of your own argument. The really groovy thing is no one gives a shit if you don't make sense unless you're trying to preach to them about something they've already made up their mind about. The rest, as they say, is silence.

 

[hellstorm]

Garvin why do you find it so hard to call parser a bot? Can you not do everything a bot does by hand? Yes you can. Otherwise you would not be able to beat a bot. Fishing bots is anouther example, you can fish yourself but it take lots of time. Smn bots same thing. While Parser, yes you can do yourself but it would be alot more work and would not be as accurate do to you having to stop every few min to write down all your data. So your exp per hour go right out the window. So yes parser is a bot.

 

[Bajaratt]

No, card counting wasn't a good analogy. While similiar, Parsing causes no damages. Card Counting causes damages to the House, in taking money from their banks. Other cheats are damaging to the game while giving one or a group of players a clear advantage, solely to be used by them. Parsing gives one player an "advantage," causes no damage to any other player, as well as becomes an "advantage" for the rest of the community by showing clear cut differences in equipment over long periods of time.

To think otherwise is just foolish. It's as advantageous as reading a book while looking for party, compared to the guy bitching about having nothing to do while in the same situation.

Exactly, there is no advantage over another player, because everyone uses the data to make determinations about their gear. Everyone(baring idiots who are too stupid to do research) found out that osode was not the end-all, be-all body piece people once thought it was; and everyone benefited. It doesn't give you any advantage in the game besides sense into what gear works best. It's providing the same "advantage" as doing research.

 

[Skaw]

Garvin why do you find it so hard to call parser a bot?

A bot performs it's duties regardless of a person being around or not. A Parser without someone around doesn't yield anything.

 

[Bajaratt]

Garvin why do you find it so hard to call parser a bot? Can you not do everything a bot does by hand? Yes you can. Otherwise you would not be able to beat a bot. Fishing bots is anouther example, you can fish yourself but it take lots of time. Smn bots same thing. While Parser, yes you can do yourself but it would be alot more work and would not be as accurate do to you having to stop every few min to write down all your data. So your exp per hour go right out the window. So yes parser is a bot.

It's not a bot in that you won't magically get parsing data if you're not at your computer, but a bot will still be doing whatever it is you want it to do.

 

[hellstorm]

No, card counting wasn't a good analogy. While similiar, Parsing causes no damages. Card Counting causes damages to the House, in taking money from their banks. Other cheats are damaging to the game while giving one or a group of players a clear advantage, solely to be used by them. Parsing gives one player an "advantage," causes no damage to any other player, as well as becomes an "advantage" for the rest of the community by showing clear cut differences in equipment over long periods of time.

To think otherwise is just foolish. It's as advantageous as reading a book while looking for party, compared to the guy bitching about having nothing to do while in the same situation.

and what do you think parser does? It hurt the house. It make people uniformity, it make the latter armor drop in demand, while the better armor go up in demand causing economy and overcrowding problems. Then you got idiots like bajaratt and yourself that seem to think anyone who don't have said armor is gimp.