POLNews - GM Policy (12th December)*Update* - continued from the other thread

[delsus]

Do you even know how hard it'd be to make a program that reads a certain part of a video file, recognize certain symbols as letters/numbers, and then calculate it?

It would NOT be worth it.

Soz dude but its built into mircosoft video edit there is a way to prase a video from it, very dam tricky and need to get some plugins but its all possable.

 

[Tim Wakefield]

Soz dude but its built into mircosoft video edit there is a way to prase a video from it, very dam tricky and need to get some plugins but its all possable.

Ill get it for you after i shower.

 

[Tomasello]

No, card counting wasn't a good analogy. While similiar, Parsing causes no damages. Card Counting causes damages to the House, in taking money from their banks, and the players around them. Other cheats are damaging to the game while giving one or a group of players a clear advantage, solely to be used by them. Parsing gives one player an "advantage," causes no damage to any other player, as well as becomes an "advantage" for the rest of the community by showing clear cut differences in equipment over long periods of time.

I'm on PS2, your on PC. You have access to a parser I don't. Your not writing shit down on a pad and paper and neither am I if I want to do my job effectively instead of scribbling on a note pad. Your using an unauthorized 3rd party program that gives you an advantage. Therefore your advantage is my DISADVANTAGE.

It's called cheating.

It is the same as card counting. The house is not the casino but all the players of ffxi without a parser unable to access the data you have. Thereby allowing you to select gear to enhance your char that I may not be aware of. Until every player in ffxi has a parser.

It's called cheating.

A white lie is still a lie. A parser is still cheating until ok'd by SE. Anything that gives anyone an advantage they can not obtain/use themselves is unfair.

End of Story.

 

[Skaw]

Uh, PS2 users have a method to yield the same results. Just because they don't do it doesn't mean everyone else has an advantage over them. Again, the information becomes shared. Sure. One person gets immediate knowledge of whats better, but he's not likely to keep it to himself. Like Decidence, for example. He shares his findings publicly on his web blog thing. Or joining your EXP party with that knowledge, cranking out faster kills and more EXP/Hr for you.

I guess it was cheating when item XXX is introduced and someone finds out how to obtain it, but doesn't let people in on his secret so he can dominate the market, right? He obviously has an advantage over other players.

Thats no different than someone camping a NM, getting a drop, becoming "better" than other campers, and then moving on.

 

[Tomasello]

I guess it was cheating when item XXX is introduced and someone finds out how to obtain it, but doesn't let people in on his secret so he can dominate the market, right? He obviously has an advantage over other players.

Thats no different than someone camping a NM, getting a drop, becoming "better" than other campers, and then moving on.

The difference is I can obtain item XXX if I figure out the quest. I can't obtain a parser. Even if I was on a PC, SE does not allow parsers so I'm not going to use something that may potentially ban me from the game. They do allow you to have Item XXX.

 

[hellstorm]

I don't even play anymore, fucktard. When in doubt and found without straw to grasp for make wild assumptions, gets em every time.

That's cool, just don't act surprised that everyone thinks you're an idiot on this topic, the point has been made a sufficient ammount of time to warrant ridicule. Even if i were still playing it and using it it wouldn't be 'cheating' (break in ToS i can give you) as i would not horde the information solely for my own gain, rather i'd offer it to those willing to learn or not push it on those who'd rather do without the help. Regardless it makes no more of an impact than watching your combat log and making the inferences yourself. It just so happens the parser is accurate.

S'pose i'm full on dumbass for the evening, sleep calls and is infinately more fulfilling than any more time wasted on you and your learning disability.

As much effort that you put into this argument, it look like you never gave the game up.

there a difference though. quest, craft list other stuff you pull from places like somepage are from datamining.

You can't datamine recipes. The recipe list is server-side. Thus, it is impossible to datamine recipes. Trust me, I've tried.

A good example of this is goblin drinks. The recipe been out since the cop expansion was release but was only discovered 2-3 months ago. People have tried many things to pop the goblin wolfman. If it could be datamined it would have been found long ago. Even more so not even the parade gorget has shown up till it was discovered 2-3 months ago. Only thing they knew by the datamined was that goblin wolfman spawn in oldton movalpolos.

 

[Skaw]

Actually, Parage Gorget has been on Somepage for a long time. Added to FFXI: July 2005 That'd be September 2006 if it was added after the recipe was found.

phail moar newb.

 

[RoM]

The parser does all that automatically, requiring no input what-so-ever from the user.

No user input yields no parser information. The parser itself is user input. This is why you fail.
This is also why hellstorm calling it a bot doesn't hold water.

Even for PS2 users who don't want to go about getting the info from the sony HDD, the information is out there and has been for quite some time before, during, and after the advent of the parser. No one with the gumption to go about getting educated is at a loss and those who lack the gumption are at a loss on their own accord.

A break of ToS does not a cheat make.

A community resource CANNOT, by definition, disadvantage the community.

 

[Tomasello]

A break of ToS does not a cheat make.

LMAO, are you insane? This is the definition of cheating.

So flee hacking, warp hacks etc are not cheating? They break the ToS. The ToS are the rules of SE we're all supposed to abide by. If you break the rules it's called CHEATING.





TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY VERBATUM:

2 results for: CHEATING


v. intr.

1) To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2) To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
3) Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
4) Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base.

n.
1)An act of cheating; a fraud or swindle.
2)One who cheats; a swindler.
3)A computer application, password, or disallowed technique used to advance to a higher skill level in a computer video game.

 

[Bajaratt]

LMAO, are you insane? This is the definition of cheating.

So flee hacking, warp hacks etc are not cheating? They break the ToS. The ToS are the rules of SE we're all supposed to abide by. If you break the rules it's called CHEATING.

Yeah, if you'd bother to pay attention at all, no one said that flee hacking and warp hacking were not cheats. They said that while both parser and flee/warp hacking are violations of the ToS, parsing still isn't cheating.

The only way parsing could be considered cheating is if:

1) You're an idiot (Covers hellstorm and a few others)
2) You only use the broadest definition of the word cheating (Covers the rest fo you)

There is no unfair personal advantage when the results of the parse are made public. You might barely outdamage someone for a party, but they'd notice that you're doing more and look at your gear or ask you how to improve. That is, of course, assuming you decided to keep the results of your parse private, which is almost unheard of when comparing 2 pieces of gear that have not been parsed before. The entire community benefits, even you lowly PS2 users.

Parsing is advanced research into gear, nothing more.

 

[RoM]

LMAO, are you insane? This is the definition of cheating.

So flee hacking, warp hacks etc are not cheating? They break the ToS. The ToS are the rules of SE we're all supposed to abide by. If you break the rules it's called CHEATING.





TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY VERBATUM:

2 results for: CHEATING


v. intr.

1) To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2) To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
3) Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
4) Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base.

n.
1)An act of cheating; a fraud or swindle.
2)One who cheats; a swindler.
3)A computer application, password, or disallowed technique used to advance to a higher skill level in a computer video game.

You're a dumbass. Obviously flee hacks and the other crap is cheating as it provides a clear advantage to one player over the community. This is not so with the parser. Breaking the ToS in this instance does not designate a cheat as the rules you refer to don't give have any bearing on the influence or lack thereof of the parser; we'll get to that further down the post. SE obviously didn't consult the dictionary to make these rules, they talked to lawyers. Which is why you and i get to dance this dance like we do. It's open to interpretation if the means to the end does not detract from the community. This is the crux of your coniption fit. i argue for the community and it's perspective, you argue for only yourself and your perspective. Such selfishness.

1/3 and 1/4 and that's being extremely liberal with your highlights as i'm about to show. You obviously didn't let the 'cheating at cards' example sink in before highlighting it as a valid definition... ah well, moving on.

In the literal sense FFXI's combat log is thusly a cheat as well as any non-liscenced SE product that has game information in it, more on that later. Only a little because i've already gone through 2 of you braindead fucktards this week on this issue and you're going to be a pushover anyway, easily dismissed back to the bowels of who gives a shit.

Explain to me how the parser does the highlighted anymore than the game itself. By your literal definition i can't help but note that ANY resource outside of FFXI is cheating. There are NO liscenced sites that hold information. SE does NOT allow for transmission of game data be it from the actual game or otherwise if you real the EULA and ToS. Much like the NFL on tv, you're not permitted to talk about it if one of their lawyers is in the room. Thankfully that's not the case. It's up to you to make the call wether it's a cheat and shut the fuck up about, no one cares about you're weak little moral values that don't hold any kind of fucking weight if applied to anything else in life virtual or otherwise.

While we're at it let's talk a minute about windower. This idea came to me while on the shitter, i wish to opine. Windower fits your definition of cheating, however most TVs come with PIP now. Thusly PS2 users have an advantage over PC users if we're both to hold to the same moral standard. As such windower levels the playing field for PC users simply because SE didn't think about it and you don't bring it up because it dwindles your point on the whole cheating issue, makes it blurly .. kinda ... a big fucking grey area. All you'd have to have is an svid output and PIP and BAM, you're a fucking cheater too. Regardless of use or relevence to advantage your setup predisposes you to it, what's more you have no choice but to have the option of being a cheater open to you making you guilty by association wether you like it or not. I can't watch tv and play FFXI, i'm gonna whine about it because it's morally wrong that someone else can.... or i could get the fuck over it and turn my head to the right so i can see mine. Same. Fucking. Deal. Either you can pay attention and sweat out your numbers or you can grab the parser and do the same thing without all the bullshit involved. Sure, it's a break in the ToS. 'Deliberately breaking the rules' .... the ones that apply to programs which A.) cause dmg to SE/FFXI, or your computer/account (hello thar pre-emptive keylogger protection) or B.) Gaining and unfair advantage over the community. 'A' doesn't even apply and 'B' the parser is in direct opposition to as it benefits (read: advances) the entire community as a whole ... save people who have their heads in the sand and can't be bothered with all this sense everyone's out making. The parser has nothing to do with either of those things, as such i don't bat an eyelash saying that the parser and windower (without plugins) are above these rules as they do not pertain to either. Make no mistake, at base those two things are the only reason those rules exist.

It'd be like someone in WoW complaining because i have dmg meters running and they don't know a damn thing about UIs. Boo-Hoo. Read your combat log, get a meter, or leather up buttercup. The counter to this, obviously, is that Blizz allows for user created interface content whereas SE does not. However it's the same argument regardless.

The parser DOES NOT give an unfair advantage. It simply displays what YOU have been doing. The parser does not give a shit what you wear, what you fight, what you eat, how long you party. However all these things are required at length for the parser to give a player insight to how they are doing. Much like simply just playing the game would. This could easily be done by making assumptions but most people want hard numbers, the game provides hard numbers which you recieve. The parser just so happens to put them together neatly for you to make your own calls about what to wear, fight, eat, etc next. The parser DOES NOT function without player input. Calling the parser a cheat is basicly claiming the combat engine and logs are also cheats and should be removed from the game. Take your bumpkin-ass logic and GTFO.

If you tightasses want to live by a corporate designation as to what is and is not cheating (and believe me, cheating is a moral issue not what's listed in the ToS as shown above because people tend to overlook things) Then so be it. While you're at it don't smoke pot for snapple don't support the war or anyone in it for starbucks. Ignorant sheep.

All i give a shit about is someone making a cohesive point on the issue which all 4 of you on the moral crusade have yet to do without having said points crammed right back down your meagerly collective throats. Cry moar.

Let's get real simple on the issue for the slow kids in the crowd:

Learning = cheating.
Your logic.

It doesn't matter that the parser operates within the same parameters as the combat log, it's cheating to you because it's not SE authorized. A break of ToS does not a cheat make. There is no one who benefits solely from the parser, in fact no one benefits from the parser at all. You benefit from making good decisions on your gear by analyzing the numbers provided to you anytime YOU do something in the game, making your definitions moot as the same advantage is achieved in game without use of the parser.

Given the right combinations i'd be willing to (and this is a bit of a stretch) I'd be willing to speculate you could make the parser show whatever you want it to depending on your gear, mob, food, etc. The only qualifier for what is better is the player, no different then life without the parser. Hence the parser is a non-influence.

Had you morons decided to go on this bitchfest when it was new to the world that might give you some credit. However unfortunately there's really no difference between bitching about the parser being a cheat and a player guide being a cheat as with a player guide you still did not put in the information/work on your own to arrive at a conclusion but are getting an unfair advantage based solely on the work of others. The same holds true if you want to go waving the EULA and ToS in the air for guides outside of brady manufactured ones. Much like a parser user gains information based on the programmer's (read: most likely another user) time and effort to make the parser and said user's time and effort parsing their own gear and whatnot to draw conclusions for themselves. Either way everyone's fucked by your logic. Not only should you not parse, you shouldn't ask around for help.

The argument is cyclical, however, there is no absolute on the whole 'cheat' factor. Either you're willing to go that far or you aren't. If you haven't gone far enough down the line of your own reasoning to make any kind of actual point that is irrefutable then you've wasted your time. This is why this is such a dead conversation. Everyone else knows the parameters are case sensitive and can be twisted just about every way possible to make an intelligent point for either side. The only problem really is that the moral brain collective has you 4 to represent it.

As it's obviously not possible nor is it really an interest of mine to persuade you out of your obviously well thought out (sarcasm is fun) opinions there's really not alot left for me to do or say here. You will continue to deny any logic thrown at you to substitute your own, which is what you should be doing, it's not my style to discredit autonomy. It is my style to point out the flaws in said autonomy just so someone can make an even bigger fool of themselves for my entertainment. You continue to live in your own jaded little worlds where what is true in one moral situation does not hold the same bearing in another moral situation and your decisions on right and wrong are carved in stone by incredibly flexible corporate legal CYA jargon. In my world that's bullshit, we only get one set of personal rules to live by on any given situation which is why i live in the grey. It affords flexibility and perspective.

As i stated from post 1 on the issue it's your call, don't get your panties in a bunch because other people not only have better persepective but a larger capacity to explain their views than you do and have surer footing to make said argument.

Edit: Edited not to come off as stoned as i am right now and to assure that i've made a big enough wall of text not to have to bother with rebuttal.

 

[Uzor]

Your point doesn't work. I can script a very easy excel workbook that you punch in the numbers and it will spit out all the same info as the current parser. All you have to do is type in the info. Info can be as you exp, from a recorded source, can be OCRed from the video checked over for errors. hell copied and pasted by hand from the logs. Might wanna learn what parsing actually means, it's a very interesting section of computer science. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsing.
Bye bye.

My point does work. Putting it in excell still means you have to insert the info yourself. This is what parser doesn't need you to do. And if you copy/paste it from the logs, that means you opened up a game file which is not allowedto be opened. And thus, you're still breaking the ToS by doing something that's not allowed.

And yes, I know what parsing means.

You can do part manually. Record the video, the go over it and after each screenful take a screenshot and feed it into one of the large already existing pool of OCR software and you've just recreated the battle log.

That's not what he said. Garvin's post was for the program to pull the info from the video by itself.

Actually, Parage Gorget has been on Somepage for a long time. Added to FFXI: July 2005 That'd be September 2006 if it was added after the recipe was found.

phail moar newb.

Yes, we all already know that. But the recipe haven't been known untill SE actually told us what the ingredients were on the fan thingy. You should try reading some before you argue, 'cause you seem completely clueless.

No user input yields no parser information. The parser itself is user input. This is why you fail.
This is also why hellstorm calling it a bot doesn't hold water.

Are you retarded? It seem you are from your posts.

Even for PS2 users who don't want to go about getting the info from the sony HDD, the information is out there and has been for quite some time before, during, and after the advent of the parser. No one with the gumption to go about getting educated is at a loss and those who lack the gumption are at a loss on their own accord.

There's a lot of things that people haven't compared. There's a lot of things that you parse yourself on the way from 1 > 75 in order to see what works best. You assume everything is end-game.

A break of ToS does not a cheat make.

A community resource CANNOT, by definition, disadvantage the community.

grammar ftw.

It's not about disadvantage the community. The definition of a cheat isn't to give a disadvantage to a whole community. It's to give someone an advantage over others, which Parser does.

I'm way to otired to read your big wall of text and possibly bullshit atm RoM, so I'll save that for tomorrow. 2 hours of sleep ftw.

 

[RoM]

My point does work. Putting it in excell still means you have to insert the info yourself. This is what parser doesn't need you to do. And if you copy/paste it from the logs, that means you opened up a game file which is not allowedto be opened. And thus, you're still breaking the ToS by doing something that's not allowed.

cntrl-A, cntrl 1, alt 5. Look mommy i'm inputing. Aside from that the information is accessed realtime every fight, how do you see over all the failure in your posts? There is no difference between the parser and paying attention. There's more then a few people on the board's who could simply do the work in their head realtime, i'd wager. Just because the option is open to them not to have to doesn't make it any more detrimental to the precious rules/tos/eula. It's not as SE intended so it must be cheating, fucking college.

Are you retarded? It seem you are from your posts.

Look who's talking, where's the rebuttal? Wait i have one... YOUR MOM. See how that makes me correct? yea, me either. Oh wait .. this must be that non-standard form of arguing you were prattling on about earlier. My my, how intellectual. Well, i just feel silly now.

grammar ftw.

protip: When in doubt claim intellectual superiority based on punctuation. I'm impressed you must've picked up 'trolling for dummies' and had a good read.

It's not about disadvantage the community. The definition of a cheat isn't to give a disadvantage to a whole community. It's to give someone an advantage over others, which Parser does.

As the information has been out there since before the parser and the same results can be achieved without it you're just full of more fail.

I'm way to otired to read your big wall of text and possibly bullshit atm RoM, so I'll save that for tomorrow. 2 hours of sleep ftw.

I know you will, it's why you brought the subject here to the FB to give and take attention over an otherwise resolved issue and pump up that ego. My guess is you'll keep spouting the narrow minded bullshit and someone else will step up to put you in your place. You're beneath me and have been for quite some time the only amusing thing at this point is that you haven't bothered to stop and realize it. There's nothing you've said that hasen't been countered, meanwhile i'm wracking up unanswered points along with the rest of the crowd. Clearly you are superior in your lack of well rounded thought on the issue, i can live with that if you can.

Until such time as any one of you clods can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the parser provides any more of an advantage than any other informational resource available to the community both in or outside of game (the latter being nothing but third party, good luck) you are useless to your cause.

The ends are all that matters if they are all equal, which in this instance they are, the means are just discourse for semantics.

You and yours have been owned at every turn of the conversation proving either that you're wrong or stupid. At the very least you have a child's understand of what constitutes cheating on a moral basis. You can make the call on that, it's not my place really.

Edit: Edited poorly for grammar, god knows we can't have bad grammar on the internet.

 

[Skaw]

Yes, we all already know that. But the recipe haven't been known untill SE actually told us what the ingredients were on the fan thingy. You should try reading some before you argue, 'cause you seem completely clueless.

Once again, Uzor replies without reading everything, as always.

This is what was posted in Hellstorms post:

A good example of this is goblin drinks. The recipe been out since the cop expansion was release but was only discovered 2-3 months ago. People have tried many things to pop the goblin wolfman. If it could be datamined it would have been found long ago. Even more so not even the parade gorget has shown up till it was discovered 2-3 months ago. Only thing they knew by the datamined was that goblin wolfman spawn in oldton movalpolos.

And I was posting to tell him he was wrong, like he always is.

In addition: You're so far off the base of your arguement against Parser, you might as well quit now and try again next time, buddy.

 

[Makelith]

grammar ftw.


I'm way to otired to read your big wall of text and possibly bullshit atm RoM, so I'll save that for tomorrow. 2 hours of sleep ftw.

Protip: When commenting on someone elses spelling and grammar, you should probably spell check as well.

 

[Tomasello]

You're a dumbass.

Leason for the day kids. Want to know how you can tell if someone has lost an agruement? They resort to insults and attacks. There's nothing left for them to argue. Everything out of there mouths is bullshit.

They want to "legitimise" their cheating:

"I stole bread only because I had to feed my family"

"I never cheated on my girlfriend except that one time"

"Parsers, even though they break the rules and give me an advantage isn't cheating."

Your violating ToS with unauthorized 3rd party software and obtaining data I don't have to give your self an edge. How the fuck does that give you an advantage and not hurt me?

You lose pal, there is no gray area. GTFO with that bullshit. "I parse for the better of the community" lmao. Me telling you your violating ToS is for my selfish reasons? Whatever, Robin Hood.

Parse if you want I don't give a fuck, BUT DON'T PRETEND YOUR DOING NOTHING WRONG BY TYPING A PAGE OF BULLSHIT TO LEGITIMISE YOUR WRONG DOING...

You can type 300 pages for all care. If ToS says you can't do X and you decide to do X for your own personal gain it's cheating. YOUR BREAKING A RULE!!!!!!! HELLO McFLY!

You operate in the land of fantasy where any bad behavior can be justified as long as you receive a benefit. Grow Up.

 

[Makelith]

Parse if you want I don't give a fuck, BUT DON'T PRETEND YOUR DOING NOTHING WRONG BY TYPING A PAGE OF BULLSHIT TO LEGITIMISE YOUR WRONG DOING...

You can type 300 pages for all care. If ToS says you can't do X and you decide to do X for your own personal gain it's cheating. YOUR BREAKING A RULE!!!!!!! HELLO McFLY!

When revised the same can be said about your whole boat of people.

If you don't want to know our parser results, we don't give a fuck, but don't pretend that your some sort of saint by typing a page of bullshit.

You can type 300 pages for all i care. If ToS says you can't do X and i decide to do X to help out the community to set a new standard of gear, then i'll be happy knowing i "cheated" in the broadest use of the term, to help out my fellow player. Grow up.

 

[RoM]

Leason for the day kids. Want to know how you can tell if someone has lost an agruement? They resort to insults and attacks. There's nothing left for them to argue. Everything out of there mouths is bullshit.

They want to "legitimise" their cheating:

"I stole bread only because I had to feed my family"

"I never cheated on my girlfriend except that one time"

"Parsers, even though they break the rules and give me an advantage isn't cheating."

Your violating ToS with unauthorized 3rd party software and obtaining data I don't have to give your self an edge. How the fuck does that give you an advantage and not hurt me?

You lose pal, there is no gray area. GTFO with that bullshit. "I parse for the better of the community" lmao. Me telling you your violating ToS is for my selfish reasons? Whatever, Robin Hood.

Parse if you want I don't give a fuck, BUT DON'T PRETEND YOUR DOING NOTHING WRONG BY TYPING A PAGE OF BULLSHIT TO LEGITIMISE YOUR WRONG DOING...

You can type 300 pages for all care. If ToS says you can't do X and you decide to do X for your own personal gain it's cheating. YOUR BREAKING A RULE!!!!!!! HELLO McFLY!

You operate in the land of fantasy where any bad behavior can be justified as long as you receive a benefit. Grow Up.

Proof positive you don't have to read someone's post to respond like a jibbering idiot. Read moar.

2 lines this time, do i win?

 

[Tomasello]

2 lines this time, do i win?

You cheat, so you lose.

 

[Tomasello]

If you don't want to know our parser results, we don't give a fuck, but don't pretend that your some sort of saint by typing a page of bullshit.

At least you admit you know your cheating.