Pretty soon religion will be "required reading" in

Darkdante

Darkdante

!@#$$%
Adventurer
Joined
Jan 28, 2005
Messages
2,750
Location
Some where out there
I suprisingly find myself in support of this guy. I sure wish they taught me some of this in my science classes. Its good to see the other side when your learning something to get a more complete picture.

Professor: Evolution cannot fully explain biology
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/10/17/evolution.debate.ap/index.html

He's basically just a lazy ass that thinks since he can't explain something its easier to say that a higher power created it.

But anyway, it is a good thing to see both sides of an opposing view.
 
Teachers are teachers, if they want to take belief and mix it in with there teachings, it seems ok to me. If the student doesnt want that, they can transfer classes. It's also fine so long as he isnt arguing proven fact and replacing it with religious "facts".
 
Yes, Behe is just a "scientist" that not only lacks critical thinking skills, but makes unscientific assumptions to fill in the gaps where his thinking skills fail.

For anyone even considering this Behe guy of having a valid point, please take the time (if you can be bothered) to read this nice article I've posted below, which debunks the cornerstone of Behe's Intelligent Design argument.

Behe's point is that Irreducible Complex(IC) objects could not have evolved. Irreducibly Complex meaning: any complex part of an organism that could not function if a single part of it was removed. And, according to Behe, since IC objects will not function if a single part is missing, then evolution could not have created them part-by-part. Thus evolution is wrong and Intelligent Design wins kthnx bai!!11!!1!11shift+one

If you don't want to read the entire article, you can get a basic gist by only reading the intro section, then skipping down to Irreducible Complexity in Nature but I would personally read the entire thing.

http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/icdmyst/ICDmyst.html

Archive for other articles opposing Michael Behe's claims: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html
 
the world is round!!!!!!!!!

every new theory gets shoved in the face, some stand the test of time, some don't.
 
Nitram said:
If the student doesnt want that, they can transfer classes. It's also fine so long as he isnt arguing proven fact and replacing it with religious "facts".
Click to expand...

Thats the problem in some situations - in younger ages children don't really know what they want to learn or what to believe. It usually ends up that the kids go home with the work that the teachers give them and the parents then need to make the decision as to what they do and don't want their kids to learn.

Sometimes kids don't have the option to switch classes or change teachers. In a school with only two teachers teaching the same subject, its hard to switch over to the next class or teacher - and what if that teacher is teaching the same thing? The kid should change schools? It doesn't always work that way.

I believe that teachers should teach this subject more objectively, giving the kids more than one option to believe, introducing religion, intelligent design, and evolution all as possible theories to the way human life was created. Then encourage the kids to perform their OWN critical thinking and come up with their OWN decions. Write papers on what they come up with, or design in class excersizes on debate - you can kill so many more birds with one stone if people in the education profession really wanted to take this topic to the next level. You could incorporate so many other critical thinking skills and excersizes into one topic if it was done right. This however, involves a major change in the way that most teachers teach, and I doubt that a lot of school districts or teachers would be willing to make that leap, being that it would not only be a little off the wall but pretty unconventional in the way that evolution has been taught throughout the years.

Strid said:
Teach facts not myths period
Click to expand...

Evolution itself is a theory, tiger, Where do you want to run with that argument?
 
..

I applaud the man for thinking outside the box!

I also do not disagree in any way whatsoever with what he's doing.

I do not see how the world can see a problem with this..

At 9th grade I have a sneaking suspicion that most kids can "kinda" think on their own, and that they should be getting most of their direction at home. All this "Teacher" is doing is simply introducing a notion to children, he's not doing it as a class that lasts weeks.. it's one speech. If it appeals to the children, or sparks some curiosity they will have to pursue that knowledge on their own and come to their own conclusions..

Why would anyone have a problem with this unless they're biased themselves, or scared of Christianity or even the thought of a higher power..
Why are so many people turned so against the religion that played a large part in founding this nation!?

Why are people so combative to anything that might have a "Christian" influence, but so many other things in school go unchecked.. I am so frustrated with a world that is so scared of offending any one person.. what kind of environment are we raising our children in?! ooooh don't do that you might hurt jimmy or becky's feelings... What happened with teaching children to just simply do what's right.. and follow through with the principles and morales taught at home regardless of the consequences. Do what you know is RIGHT.. nothing more .. nothing less.. by not doing so.. you have to live with the consequences.. I personally teach my child right from wrong. and encourage her to be strong and proud of the convictions she finds on her own. I don't force my own beliefs onto her. But amazingly enough at 6 years old she has a stronger grasp of right and wrong then soo many people in the world..

I'm tired of a pansy eating pussy footing gunshy pencil necked society..
bring back the days when men were men and women were.. well.. women.. I'm all about equality.. but by telling some people they're wrong and pushing them under the carpet ... aren't we saying they aren't equal?
what is so bad about Christianity and the viewpoints of hundreds of nations for over a thousand years that it has to be shunned now? I'm not saying that we should teach it in school.. There are private schools for that.
but why the screaming and fuss because one man introduces the notion that all children have heard from time to time to give them something that might light a fire in that dimly lit vacuum of a cranial cavity they have... ENCOURAGE OUR KIDS TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES !!! you'd be amazed at what our young minds can do and come up with when they're not stifled and suffocated.


/end rant

eidt:

oh and I don't remember where I read it.. but Darwin died a Christian denouncing his own theory saying it was poor speculation... but they don't mention that.. He released it as a "theory" and regretted doing so.. I found that ironic and mildly humorous..
 
Darwin did not recant on his deathbed. That story keeps circulating despite its refutation by members of his own family. And even if he did, so what? Modern research has long since outstripped and expanded upon his observations.

I don't understand why all these witch doctors feel the need to go into a science classroom and try to shoehorn their superstitions into it. If one of these yahoos went to a medical school and asked to teach a course on exorcism they would be laughed out the door, and rightly so.

If you want to believe in an Intelligent Designer, you're completely free to do so. Evolutionary theory and Christianity are not incompatible (just ask the Catholic Church). Call it God or whatever you want, as long as you realize it's your place to adjust your religious views to accomodate the facts and not the other way around. If you're given a mountain of evidence and disregard it because it conflicts with "what you've always believed" instead of changing your mind... you're the one with the problem.

Intelligent Design is just a shuck-and-jive move to get religion into the science classroom where it doesn't belong.
 
Re: ..

Darthyoda said:
I applaud the man for thinking outside the box!

I also do not disagree in any way whatsoever with what he's doing.

I do not see how the world can see a problem with this..

At 9th grade I have a sneaking suspicion that most kids can "kinda" think on their own, and that they should be getting most of their direction at home. All this "Teacher" is doing is simply introducing a notion to children, he's not doing it as a class that lasts weeks.. it's one speech. If it appeals to the children, or sparks some curiosity they will have to pursue that knowledge on their own and come to their own conclusions..

Why would anyone have a problem with this unless they're biased themselves, or scared of Christianity or even the thought of a higher power..
Why are so many people turned so against the religion that played a large part in founding this nation!?

Why are people so combative to anything that might have a "Christian" influence, but so many other things in school go unchecked.. I am so frustrated with a world that is so scared of offending any one person.. what kind of environment are we raising our children in?! ooooh don't do that you might hurt jimmy or becky's feelings... What happened with teaching children to just simply do what's right.. and follow through with the principles and morales taught at home regardless of the consequences. Do what you know is RIGHT.. nothing more .. nothing less.. by not doing so.. you have to live with the consequences.. I personally teach my child right from wrong. and encourage her to be strong and proud of the convictions she finds on her own. I don't force my own beliefs onto her. But amazingly enough at 6 years old she has a stronger grasp of right and wrong then soo many people in the world..

I'm tired of a pansy eating pussy footing gunshy pencil necked society..
bring back the days when men were men and women were.. well.. women.. I'm all about equality.. but by telling some people they're wrong and pushing them under the carpet ... aren't we saying they aren't equal?
what is so bad about Christianity and the viewpoints of hundreds of nations for over a thousand years that it has to be shunned now? I'm not saying that we should teach it in school.. There are private schools for that.
but why the screaming and fuss because one man introduces the notion that all children have heard from time to time to give them something that might light a fire in that dimly lit vacuum of a cranial cavity they have... ENCOURAGE OUR KIDS TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES !!! you'd be amazed at what our young minds can do and come up with when they're not stifled and suffocated.


/end rant

eidt:

oh and I don't remember where I read it.. but Darwin died a Christian denouncing his own theory saying it was poor speculation... but they don't mention that.. He released it as a "theory" and regretted doing so.. I found that ironic and mildly humorous..
Click to expand...

Do you believe in Santa as well?
 
reply

as a matter of fact, yes I do ^^
could you deliver some honesty in society, and adherance to morals in my stocking this year?

St. Nicholas was a good man. .but in today's society would be cast out accused of being a pedophile..

I think kids should be taught and not stuck in a box.. teach, don't brainwash.. There are too many close minded people trying to restrain the thought process. that is my point.

Nearly all of our most intelligent philosophers and scientists in today and yesterday's time were people that thought outside the box.

Let us encourage independant thought and not.. the world is flat... accept it and go on.

oh here's an article that I'm sure will feed the fire:

http://www.techcentralstation.com/080505E.html
 
Re: reply

Darthyoda said:
as a matter of fact, yes I do ^^
could you deliver some honesty in society, and adherance to morals in my stocking this year?

St. Nicholas was a good man. .but in today's society would be cast out accused of being a pedophile..

I think kids should be taught and not stuck in a box.. teach, don't brainwash.. There are too many close minded people trying to restrain the thought process. that is my point.

Nearly all of our most intelligent philosophers and scientists in today and yesterday's time were people that thought outside the box.

Let us encourage independant thought and not.. the world is flat... accept it and go on.

oh here's an article that I'm sure will feed the fire:

http://www.techcentralstation.com/080505E.html
Click to expand...

That explains it all. Thanks for the clarification. :arrow:
 
Re: ..

Darthyoda said:
I applaud the man for thinking outside the box!
Click to expand...

Please tell me how the Intelligent Design argument, in any way, is "outside-of-the-box" thinking.

The entire premise of their argument is: We can't think of a way to explain it, so an intelligent being that we have absolutely no scientific evidence for, MUST have created it! END OF STORY!

There is nothing creative, imaginative, skeptical, or scientific about his argument, he just pulls out a structure-less story from thin-air because he can't think of an explanation for something via evolutionary theory.

Darthyoda said:
Why would anyone have a problem with this unless they're biased themselves, or scared of Christianity or even the thought of a higher power..
Why are so many people turned so against the religion that played a large part in founding this nation!?
Click to expand...

Darthyoda said:
bring back the days when men were men and women were.. well.. women.. I'm all about equality.. but by telling some people they're wrong and pushing them under the carpet ... aren't we saying they aren't equal?
what is so bad about Christianity and the viewpoints of hundreds of nations for over a thousand years that it has to be shunned now?
Click to expand...

I can understand having opposing views mentioned in schools, but they should be valid and scientific views. Not views like Intelligent Design or Creationism. I mean, if you truly believe what you are saying then not only should we have ID and creationism briefly taught in the class, we should also have the Incan creation mythology taught, and 1000000s of other creation mythologies that have existed through-out time, just so that our students can experience all the opposing views.

Hell, why don't we teach them about the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster's view of creation: http://www.venganza.org/
 
Strid said:
Teach facts not myths period.
Click to expand...

What is fact today, is fiction tomorrow.

A few hundred years ago man believed in spontaneous manifistation. If you put straw in the corner of your barn, it spawned rats. If you left a piece of meat outside for too long, it would spawn maggets. They didn't even associate maggets with flies.

I'm sure in a few hundred years most, if not all of our current fundamental beliefs with have changed, or evolved.

You kind of just have to take everyone's biast opinions with a grain of salt, and come to your own conclusions based on what makes the most sense to you at the time.
 
I don't think they should teach evolution at all really except in passing. "yup basically no one knows how we got here...choices are either evolution or god...pick one and lets move on to something confirmed." That! is how it should be done.

And yes for people to select their own views there is religious studies and all that other crap they made me go to...frankly all they did was show me alot of stuff about christianity and tell me drugs are bad.

Also i personally wouldn't look to much in to something he said on his deathbed...its a common thing to suddenly become christian when the afterlife (of lack of it) is staring you in the face :P

And part (possibley the majority of it) of the reason people are so against christianity and other major religions is because it is a form of control.
 
Rinoah said:
I don't think they should teach evolution at all really except in passing. "yup basically no one knows how we got here...choices are either evolution or god...pick one and lets move on to something confirmed." That! is how it should be done.
Click to expand...

That's a horrible idea. Why bother teaching Biology at all if you're going to throw out the discipline's unifying prinicple? That's like saying "We were going to discuss heredity, but we'll just boil it down to this: Your eyes are blue because of a complex interchange of dominant/recessive genes, or maybe it's because God though you looked better that way. Pick one and let's move on."

This entire drive to "teach the controversy" is just throwing up dust to obscure the real problem with Intelligent Design. The Jesus People want to have their idea in the same intellectual weight class as evolutionary theory, but they're not in the same class.

If Christians want their pet scientific "theories" to gain acceptance, they have to play by science's rules. Their stories fall apart when they try that, so they act like the problem is with science. It's not.
 
Halifirien said:
Rinoah said:
I don't think they should teach evolution at all really except in passing. "yup basically no one knows how we got here...choices are either evolution or god...pick one and lets move on to something confirmed." That! is how it should be done.
Click to expand...

That's a horrible idea. Why bother teaching Biology at all if you're going to throw out the discipline's unifying prinicple? That's like saying "We were going to discuss heredity, but we'll just boil it down to this: Your eyes are blue because of a complex interchange of dominant/recessive genes, or maybe it's because God though you looked better that way. Pick one and let's move on."
Click to expand...

Well it would sure as hell speed up my lessons...

Frankly the evolution vs religion arguement gets old...i mean its not even something we can accurately prove...at least with the blue eyes thing you can say WHY they are blue (even if its because god thinks my blue eyes should be pretty :P), whereas with the evolution topic all you can do is state which you believe. I doubt there will be any questions on the final exam on evolution, therefore it doesn't really need to be covered, as all that happens is a big arguement. If they really care about evolution THAT much i am sure they are perfectly welcome to go and find out more about it in their own time.

Also they went through evolution in religious studies...i think it was the week before "don't do drugs" and after "why it's not nice to kill kittens".
 
Rinoah said:
"yup basically no one knows how we got here...choices are either evolution or god...pick one and lets move on to something confirmed." That! is how it should be done.
Click to expand...

What about both?

Could it not be possible that there is a God, that created the system of evolution? Which is a system that is almost perfect in the way that it can take a species of tiny microbes, and over very long periods of time, allow them to survive in an ever-changing environment? Sure there could have been a God like this, but what evidence do you have to suggest it? Michael Behe thought he had evidence of this by suggesting that our bodies are just too complex for evolution, but that idea has been shot-down plenty of times since it was written in his book in '96. So there is still a lack of scientific evidence linking an Intelligent Being with our creation.

While I am not an atheist, I believe that what is taught in school science class should consist purely of scientific data. And I feel that teachers should not have to "hide" certain scientific theories, such as evolution, from the students. While evolution is only a theory, it is a theory with a foundation in science and objective (not spiritual, or intangible) data. ID followers cannot say the same, and that is why Evolution is taught in school, and Creationism/ID-ism/Pastafarianism is not.

I have no problem with these opposing views being briefly summarized, but should not be taught in-depth to the students of a SCIENCE class if they have no foundation in science. Philosophy class(if any high-school has one) would be a different story. But it would be absurd to teach non-science in a science class.

I've got my money bet on Behe losing.
 
I've got money on him losing, then spending a few years adding completely irrelevant information to the book and trying again.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top