QCDN's future without a Flameboard

[Bajaratt]

Theres a huge difference between Alla and QDCN. QDCN is supposed to be a nice community of players from the same server. Alla is crawling with 10 year olds from all the servers.

A lot of people shy away from QDCN because it DOES hurt your rep ingame if you start to get in a scuffle with somebody because of a disagreement.

God forbid people have opinions or express them; I really wouldn't want to be associated with people who discriminate based on the fact that you participate in an online forum for a game they play. I'd be surprised if you're allowed to talk in the LS, for fear of expressing a dissenting opinion.

The vast majority of people with "bad reputations" didn't get those reputations solely from participating on qcdn, at most qcdn just let everyone know about their already bad reputation. There's nothing inherently bad about participating in an online forum, but how you participate and what you contribute will have an effect on how people will think of you, i.e. your reputation.

I'll agree that often times threads get out of hand on the flameboard, but I think that could be solved by a more strict enforcement of the rules.

 

[Bajaratt]

re: enforcing current FB rules
It's not practical to do so.
It just takes too much time out of one's day to read through some 500 crap posts per day, and then to decide which is less crappier and thus potentially worth keeping.

Yeah, I realize that it takes a huge amount of time to monitor these boards and that you have other, better things to do with your time. I'm just saying that more enforcement would probably be good, but it's really impractical to implement.

 

[Courtney]

Yes, that is indeed true. Once a reputation has been gained, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible to change it.

Honestly, this makes me sad.
I never meant for QCDN to be seen as 'undesirable'.
I spend considerable amounts of time working on this site in because I believe that it is a functional and valuable resource. Hearing otherwise is naturally quite a Debbie Downer.

I wouldn't value one QCDN user over another, but the lack of end-game shell participation on these boards is something that I have noticed and unable to do anything about because I don't play the game anymore and don't really have a good way to reach and talk with the end-game shell people. I did consider to buy the game just to get in touch with those players and get their opinions on what can and needs to be done to improve participation.

However, I just really do not have the time to do this.

I believe that QCDN can be a resource for all players. I believe that QCDN would have things to offer to end-game players, but along the same lines I have to say that some of the end-game players would have to drop their elitist attitude in order for this to work.

I'm not really sure that's actually the case. In my experience a lot of end game players do come here, and generally are willing to help when people have questions. A lot of these people don't advertise their endgame shell though, because just mentioning the name of pretty much any endgame shell is an open invitation to flame, and (contrary to popular belief) most of the end game players that come here aren't looking for trouble.

How people behave on QCDN is used as a guide to the kind of person they are though, and that isn't simply restricted to the flameboard, or even to QCDN. How people behave in any public arena is going to reflect on that person's character. There's plenty of aggrovation (at times) in the end game, and the last thing any shell needs is trouble being caused from within the shell, in addition to the normal competition between shells.

I'd be surprised if simply posting on QCDN (or even in the Flameboard) is giving people a bad reputation though, it's more likely to be WHAT they post. The shell I belong too has recruited many players who post regularly on QCDN and our leader is a mod here. I honestly don't think she'd spend the time if she only saw negatives in taking part here. Players also can get very positive reputations here, even if they do post on the flameboards. Sabia's a good example. Many people respect her because of her views and most have never even met her in game.

QCDN is a community board and that differs from most other boards in that it's not so much about FFXI, but it's about us. That means both the good and the bad, and I don't think you can have a community board without having both. Having a Flameboard separates the bad, so if you're not comfortable taking part, you don't need too. It's there all the same though because whether we like it or not, it's part of us. Keeping it separate from everything else though means you only take part in flames if you choose too...

 

[Peregrine]

But you can find entire populations who don't recruit from here, and in fact consider it negative. In fact, QCDN allegiance is never a positive. Such is the case with my shell these days. Hating QCDN for what it has become, which is a hangout for low denominator flamers and petty rivalries, is a plus in a player for all I'm concerned. MANY others feel the same way. I hate the flameboard. Hate flamers. They're bad at it, because GOOD flames aren't flames. They're DISCUSSIONS. ARGUMENTS. DEBATES. All of which has no place on the flameboard.

The flameboard needs to go, or at least try it out for two months. You will quickly see that it serves no purpose. It doesn't keep flames off other boards. All you have to do is enter Vang's posting history and take a look around. All you have to do is enter my posting history and look for when I have replied out-of-flame to a flame, or to someone taking it as far as they can possibly go without being detected by a mod team that basically has to be plopped down right in front of a problem to do anything about it, or that the problem has to detonate the entire room for them to do anything.

Flaming serves no purpose. All other heated discussion belongs outside the flameboard, but with increased moderator efforts. Honestly, right now I don't think the moderators are mature enough to handle that because many of them are either biased or signed up under different demands and pretenses, but that's how all quality forums operate. They operate under the idea that you don't flame, period. Anywhere. You never attack the person, and all personal attacks will be removed within the day with penalty. You attack the idea.

The flameboard caters to people who lack the self-control to disagree appropriately. The flameboard mentality is so accepted that it spills out into other boards. It is not a pressure valve. It is the root of a growing weed.

This board would do well to learn how to inflame without flaming. Medical analogy time: Inflammation can lead to repair and healing IF PROPERLY MODERATED. But a flame? No, all a flame does is scar. In the same way, every last positive from the flameboard can exist anywhere else if it is simply moderated well. General discussion can yield debate. Auction house debates...come on now. Economics demands argument. General discussion--gameplay.

The flameboard brings QCDN down. The only thing stopping the end of the flameboard from failing to die like it should have years ago is how much the moderators care about their boards instead of their status.

Hur hur, I was right. Fuck off, Peregrine. Dynamis-onry is for content failures like yourself.

This is the flameboard, folks. Sculli, dude. You know this. Just end it. You lose NOTHING.

 

[Courtney]

But you can find entire populations who don't recruit from here, and in fact consider it negative. In fact, QCDN allegiance is never a positive. Such is the case with my shell these days. Hating QCDN for what it has become, which is a hangout for low denominator flamers and petty rivalries, is a plus in a player for all I'm concerned.

Ironic that you were still recruiting here less than a week ago...

 

[Sabia]

Peregrine, not all the mods have all day to troll through HUNDREADS of posts to make sure everyone is behaving as they should. Why don't you as members take some responsibility for your own actions and moderate yourselves and your peers instead of waiting for us to wipe your faces for you.

Don't try to pull high and mighty because you turned a perfectly good discussion on beseiged into a shit fest. Yes the flameboard needs to go, but so do the jerks who actively try to ruin everyone elses experience on the board.

 

[Arctyrael]

I would love to see the flameboard go. I've rarely ever used it, and when I have, a good ranting in my linkshell would have sufficed.

 

[Valoran]

I'd like to offer a personal testimonial.

I used to use QCDN a lot. It was my major source of discussions about in-game activities. I found GD useful, ES profitable, and CC interesting. I've even spent a few slow weeks at school discussing things in the off-topic board.

I have all but quit using QCDN because of the flameboard. Someone mentioned that it has twice the posts of any other board. Another mentioned that it gets 500 new posts a day. These may be exaggerations, but the fact is simple: QCDN's members spend their time there.

I still click on my QCDN tab on my favorites bar fairly often, but most of the time I see that a few comments have been posted in GD and ES, and 10 new flames are bolded.

Sculli says that a bad rep for the board makes him sad; what makes me sad is a board that talks more about people than the game it concerns. Maybe when NA's finish the content, they turn to the more challenging game of standing taller than their fellow players. Maybe TAU will naturally reduce the time people spend on drama, and increase the time that they spend on quests, missions, and events.

I'm all for eliminating the flameboard; my vote goes for that, and here's why:

- If the flameboard is gone, people will post in other boards. The other boards will regain the attention that they simply can't hold while the flameboard reigns supreme.

- QCDN will have more people working on other things when they aren't working on flaming people.

- To those who say the flames will occur on other boards, I'd say the solution people have been offering for the flameboard would work fine there: moderation. Moderators have done a great job identifying flames and moving them; they can certainly delete them or call for a cleaner write-up of an idea. QCDN could use this kind of discussion.

I think this is worth a serious discussion. Let people deal with their angst with their linkshells; all of the flames that could be resolved into useful discussion could be dealt with in GD with polite and nameless hypotheticals; the flames about X needs to return Y to shell Z simply won't gain anything from 500 people yelling about who they like and don't like.

 

[asiamise]

re: enforcing current FB rules
It's not practical to do so.
It just takes too much time out of one's day to read through some 500 crap posts per day, and then to decide which is less crappier and thus potentially worth keeping.

Amen Bossman.

Deciding what stays and what goes is not as easy as it seems. Should we get rid of it? Maybe. Maybe not.
I personally have no problem taking an "Iron Fist" approach to Modding it if need be. I have always tried to only step in when obviously necessary. And so far I've pulled it off without coming off like a censorship nazi.

When it was first decided after much heated debate to assign Cubs and I as mods, it was needed to weed out turds like Roofie and Seppeku under the condition that we would not run rampant and power trip. The idea was to keep it a semi lawless zone, as long it stayed within the constraints of logical flaming. So far, with the occasional exception, it has pretty much been that way.

In the end, its your call Sculli. I have been honored to look after it, and would continue to do so if it stays. Likewise I would step back and let it go for the better of QCDN if thats what the boards evolution brings us to.

Edit: The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of getting rid of it.
Way back 2 yrs ago when I found this board and signed up (member #45 w00t!), within 1 day I had met some great people, got some questions answered, and was invited to my first LS.
Since then, I have made some great friends, had some even better laughs.
I would rather this board be known and remembered for the good it has done, which in my eyes far outweighs the bad.
It has brought people together on this server in a way no other server forum could have.
We have seen that we have talented artists, writers etc. from all walks of life in this world of ours
that have come together and socialized here under QCDN's roof for 2 yrs now.
We have planned game events, discussed our personal tragedies, and even hooked up in RL.

And after 2 yrs it sickens me to think that because a few assholes can't contain themselves and function like civilized people that QCDN would get such a shitty rap.
Just goes to show you that no matter how much good is done, the second something negative is born it is all thats adressed or remembered.

 

[Tim Wakefield]

As a long standing member of QCDN, i feel its necessary to put in my two cents to this discussion also...

I joined in June 2004, and immediately hated the flameboard from day 1. Now almost two years later, ive learned to accept it....to an extent. I still check it last after GD, OT, ES, My Linkshells, and Good Times...but i do look. I rarely post there, and have only created one topic ever (Which wasnt even really a flame, more of a joke about someone proposing mithra e-sex to me, lol).

The flameboard is a solid thought, with dumbasses taking over. Its an excuse for someone to go and be an assclown and get away with it. You dont like "Insert Player", then be a man and PM them, telling them why you dont like them. There is no reason to cry to the near 4000 members.

Asshats lead to asshats, as then some other clown will jump into the discussion to really crap it up. Sometimes its good for a laugh or two, but for the most part, its all garbage. Occasionally there is a good fair argument between two people that gets moved to the flameboard, only to be PC+1'd to death by everybody and their mother.

With that said, i say Good Riddance to the Flameboard, i wont miss it...but youre gonna need an area to move flames to that erupt on the GD and OT board, which is unavoidable.

Imagine detention in high school, with all those jack-offs from your school, only this time with no supervision. Thats what the flameboard represents to me....

 

[Bajaratt]

Where is there any proof that the removal of the flameboard will do anything to improve the activity of the other boards? Yes, people will have more free time since they're not reading/posting on the flameboard, but there's no proof at all that people will suddenly care more about the other aspects of the board. Just by not allowing people to post on one topic doesn't make them suddenly care about a completely different topic or even give them something to say.

It's mainly the people who don't even use the flameboard that want it gone. They ignore it, they never use it, so they don't really see any loss in it being gone. The flameboard has legitmate uses, reporting bad/dishonerable players is important in that people try not to let those players continue with their behavior. The topics rarely stay clean, so they wouldn't fit in anywhere else on the boards; and at the same time it would prevent people from having knowledge about other players that could be important to whatever they're trying to do. If the status of the flameboard doesn't effect you, your opinion of whether it goes or stays should have no bearing on the actual decision. That's like me trying to vote for elections in another state.

It'd be great if it was just left to the legitimate flames, but unless it is plausible for moderation to pick up and to weed out the bad flames from the good one; which has already been posted is very hard and time consuming; you have to deal with the crappy threads that get locked eventually.

 

[Shaidalyn]

Oh, as an avid FB person.. though I generally don't care who or what's going on, just interesting reads.. I'd have to say it has saved me a lot of troubles.. Seeing some of the people I was iffy about being TOTAL scum.. saved me a headache.. I got a nice "Do NOT invite list" and it's not cause they were a dick once or twice or ause they got band-wagoned... But because they were a genuine piece of garbage.. I've learned a good deal (in good ways too) about people who explained their side or explained their losses... But most of all the general Ranting.. which is a MUST in life.. it reduecs stress.

While I don't care if the FB stays or goes.. I would highly proposition a Rant' forum for people who have a gripe with SE, or a bad day... NOT any personal attacks or anything.. perhaps (MAYBE) a bad party.. but with none of the "youre stupid" comments flying in...

And as a final note.. I made an ass of myself in a Bst thread.. people took me too serious blah blah.. I don't care, half them don't care, a few prolly still do.. But the fact remains it had ABSOLUTELY ZERO impact on my gameplay. I never once got turned down for a pt, never once did someone bitch at me about it and never ONCE did someone say anything smartass about it in game to me. I don't give a half damn what people here think of me.. If they like me cool, if not fine.. I enjoy this site as entertainment only. I love the info from it, and in fact a lot of people who read here and didnt like me needed a whole 15min with me to see I'm not some psycho devil spawn ;p

FB stay or go, I love QCDN and thank you Sculli for having it. So many issues solved here ^^

 

[asiamise]

It'd be great if it was just left to the legitimate flames, but unless it is plausible for moderation to pick up and to weed out the bad flames from the good one; which has already been posted is very hard and time consuming; you have to deal with the crappy threads that get locked eventually.

I would be happy to do so, but in turn the community would have to realize and understand that the Flameboard will have evolved (thank god) and will become a place for heated discussion with genuine basis for posting or it would get locked/deleted. No questions asked.
And all the PC+1's that throw in random shit like "I like corn" would after being warned and doing so again, have thier access to the board instantly limited to read only for whatever amount of time Sculli determines.

 

[Omniscientx]

The thing is that people want to get stuff done regardless if you're an asshole or not. You can be the biggest dickhead on the planet but if you're good at what you do (Play FFXI) I don't care. You guys take everything in this game way too seriously.

 

[Bajaratt]

I would be happy to do so, but in turn the community would have to realize and understand that the Flameboard will have evolved (thank god) and will become a place for heated discussion with genuine basis for posting or it would get locked/deleted. No questions asked.
And all the PC+1's that throw in random shit like "I like corn" would after being warned and doing so again, have thier access to the board instantly limited to read only for whatever amount of time Sculli determines.

I really don't have a problem with that, I could see where people would cry about abuse of powers, but if people are thread-crapping or whatnot, I'm all for removing it.

 

[Bajaratt]

The thing is that people want to get stuff done regardless if you're an asshole or not. You can be the biggest dickhead on the planet but if you're good at what you do (Play FFXI) I don't care. You guys take everything in this game way too seriously.

I've had to put up with people I don't like to accomplish a goal, true, but I much rather prefer playing with people who don't annoy me. And if I'm doing anything with money/items involved I don't want someone with a bad record coming along and ruining my fun.

 

[decidence]

I hate to see a person's 3 year hard work got bashed just for 1 section of this fantastic website. However with all the respect to the hard work of sculli I do believe FB is not a good thing for our server.

Compare to other servers, our server seems to be still crawling in the stone age. How many NA ls had taken down the wyrms? How many NA ls had really went after the 3 kings? How many LS had any progress in sea?

When "A" ls makes a mistake, ls B, C, D will join the fest and bash them to hell on the FB. A LS loses some members due to the flame on FB and join B,C,D. 2 weeks later B ls wiped to kirin, and A, C, D ganged up on B and B loses its member to A, C, D. This is just a bad cycle.

Flames like these prevent A, B, C, D to work together coz at some point they all have beef with each other. What's worse? All those flames were DOCUMENTED. Remeber the best flame thread competition? Yes I can understand sometimes people need their place to rant and those individuals might need some help from getting jacked. But for all the endgame communities out there, the flame board just hurts the oppuntunity for us to work together or reunited. One member of certain ls did something dishonored, and the effect of the FB would automatically labelled the whole LS to be evil, FOREVER, no matter the member involved in the incident is still in the shell or not.

QCDN is a great site, just not the flame board.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Pompidou]

In support of the Flameboards though, I think it does play some role in keeping players in conformity. If FFXI abhors anything, it abhors individual thought. It might be your 12.95, but it's the rest of the server's 25,000.00 - I believe that's the saying. I know I personally have shied away from going against the grain out of fear of being labelled a poor player and appearing on the flameboard. If the Flameboard keeps me acceptable to the community in terms of gear choice, subjobs levelled, and pretty much every aspect of gameplay someone can possibly judge (I think I covered all the bases), it surely does so for others. The Flameboard controls server behavior as much in prevention as it does in punishment. I think there's at least one player who would've been on the flameboard had s/he not seen someone else have their in game life decimated there already for the same thing. We can only know about the people the Flameboard has ruined. We'll never know how many people the Flameboard has scared into playing the right way.

What good is a community based game, after all, if people all play different ways and hold different beliefs? That, is the surest way to hold back progress. When the first JP set foot on Vana'diel soil some three or so years ago, he at once knew all there was to know about FFXI gameplay, and he wrote all that he knew on Allakazham. He not only knew about gameplay issues that existed at the time, but issues that had yet to be. Ever since that day, the community has never deviated from that vision. Any unique thought can be countered with "We've been doing X since the game came out and it works", even if such isn't the case. The Flameboards are an important means of enforcing the Ten Thousand Commandments of Vana'diel. You're not just a forum Admin, Sculli, you're Moses.

 

[Peregrine]

Peregrine, not all the mods have all day to troll through HUNDREADS of posts to make sure everyone is behaving as they should. Why don't you as members take some responsibility for your own actions and moderate yourselves and your peers instead of waiting for us to wipe your faces for you.

Don't try to pull high and mighty because you turned a perfectly good discussion on beseiged into a shit fest. Yes the flameboard needs to go, but so do the jerks who actively try to ruin everyone elses experience on the board.

Don't try to tell me it's the job of the users to behave as they should. That would make you pointless. If you want to reneg on the duty, go ahead. Until then, problems with the content of boards will be the responsibility of the mods and ultimately admin. If you don't want that, put the responsibility down.

 

[Peregrine]

Where is there any proof that the removal of the flameboard will do anything to improve the activity of the other boards? Yes, people will have more free time since they're not reading/posting on the flameboard, but there's no proof at all that people will suddenly care more about the other aspects of the board. Just by not allowing people to post on one topic doesn't make them suddenly care about a completely different topic or even give them something to say.

There is overwhelming proof. I cannot count on two hands and both feet the number of QCDN posters who cannot control themselves on the flameboard, then take their anger elsewhere. Without the flameboard, you don't have to worry about these types of posters who can't control themselves. They never get agitated, so they never post. Let it be known that no user is to flame, period, and all their ammo will be gone. They only take it elsewhere because of what gets said on the flameboard. Removing the flameboard removes the agitation that spills over into other boards.

Look at Blowy's comment here. Again, pushing that envelope. How hard can people push before it's called a flame. I don't recall recruiting on here less than a week ago, but it's somehow ironic that I did to a random poster. Why? Because it's me and someone had to say something. Past flames COMPEL them to retaliate wherever they can, as strongly as they can, without getting caught.

People cannot control themselves after being flamed. Remove the flames, and the flames that boil over will go away as well. As it stands, I expect this to erupt into a pointless argument as to whether I did or did not recruit on QCDN less than a week ago for no other reason than a faint shell of self-control is EASILY broken by past flames.

As far as "nobody" caring about the general discussion board, that's the issue. QCDN doesn't need the flamers. QCDN is better without the flamers, even if they are the number one content. There is no content on that board. All that postcount is zero content. General discussion, event scheduling, and the AH has always been the part of qcdn that keeps it barely floating. The flameboard is what's ruining it.