Question to other Dynamis LS's

[Bajaratt]

And in every opportunity people have been given to find contradictions in what I've said, they haven't come up with any. Are you going to find some for me?

You're right, you don't have contradictions; you just stick to your guns no matter how blatantly wrong you are, no matter what arguments you make up just so you have something to "win."

 

[Marajade]

And in every opportunity people have been given to find contradictions in what I've said, they haven't come up with any. Are you going to find some for me?

I didnt call you on contradictions, I called you on just being plain incorrect. Its like trying to argue that the sky is pink. You can present a valid case, with millions of good points all presented correctly, but that doesn't make it a correct statement.

 

[metachronism]

Bajaratt, you should be done. I used your distribution and scaled it down to 34. If you think that group has the firepower to clear sanodria in 2 hours, then you should be making arguments for that. If not, you had no point posting your search results because the only thing that would have been relevant for would have been to make the case for the claim that a group of 34 with unskewed job distribution can perform on par with a group of 30 with very selective jobs, which is known to be able to clear bastok and sandoria in 2 hours or less.

Marajade, I don't know what your point is because all you've done so far is just come out and say "you're wrong." If you think there are points which are incorrect, you'd look more convincing if you point them out and set forth your case why you think they're wrong. Of course, I sure hope you're not afking on anyone in the game while you do that.

 

[Bajaratt]

Bajaratt, you should be done. I used your distribution and scaled it down to 34. If you think that group has the firepower to clear sanodria in 2 hours, then you should be making arguments for that. If not, you had no point posting your search results because the only thing that would have been relevant for would have been to make the case for the claim that a group of 34 with unskewed job distribution can perform on par with a group of 30 with very selective jobs, which is known to be able to clear bastok and sandoria in 2 hours or less.

Marajade, I don't know what your point is because all you've done so far is just come out and say "you're wrong." If you think there are points which are incorrect, you'd look more convincing if you point them out and set forth your case why you think they're wrong. Of course, I sure hope you're not afking on anyone in the game while you do that.

I don't see why that group couldn't clear the zone; there's nothing wrong with it. The "reason" I posted was because you kept saying that we're not following the demographics of the server, that they were skewing towards a small number of jobs; when in fact they're taking the majority of the jobs in the server. You wanted people to use a representative amount of the jobs, and called people elitist and wrong when they said that having mostly cannon jobs was actually representative. They were correct, the vast majority of the players were actually on the cannon jobs; so while your arguments might not have been contradictory, your basis was wrong.

A majority of the cannon jobs is not skewing the job distribution at all, those jobs are the most popular and the most used. What would skew the distribution is forcing yourself to only take x amount of each job so that you have an equal amount of each job attending. There's no reason to skew the jobs towards an equal number of each job other than to do it.

 

[metachronism]

I don't see why that group couldn't clear the zone; there's nothing wrong with it. The "reason" I posted was because you kept saying that we're not following the demographics of the server, that they were skewing towards a small number of jobs; when in fact they're taking the majority of the jobs in the server. You wanted people to use a representative amount of the jobs, and called people elitist and wrong when they said that having mostly cannon jobs was actually representative. They were correct, the vast majority of the players were actually on the cannon jobs; so while your arguments might not have been contradictory, your basis was wrong.

Have you wondered why the group configuration of that one group hasn't been disclosed? Doing so would have been the strongest evidence for their argument if they wanted to argue that they don't have a skewed job configuration--instead, they acknowledged the skew, and argued instead that it is normal for most people to have "merit jobs" leveled. We're not talking about a bare-minimum majority here. We're talking most, as in, maybe one drg and one sam in the whole group. There were probably brds in most parties. Those are things you can deduce from the time and # of people.

Just doing a search and saying "oh, there are more wars and nins than drgs" doesn't say much. While I will tell you that it's pretty unlikely that the group of 34 mentioned before will clear sandoria even with the full hourglass, that's something I won't sit here arguing with you since it'll be nearly impossible to prove to each other.

However, the whole argument which makes out the job differences to be minimal is trivial to debunk. The side you're trying to argue for is claiming that a group of unskewed 34 is just as capable as the group of 30 with a very spartan configuration. Then, the obvious corollary to that would be that such a group should be able to clear sandoria in under 2 hours, as there exist groups of 30 which can do that.

Can you take that group and clear sandoria in 2 hours or less, or can't you? That shouldn't be too hard to answer.

 

[Marajade]

Can you take that group and clear sandoria in 2 hours or less, or can't you? That shouldn't be too hard to answer.

Can you take a group of 42 DRGs and DRKs and kill Vrtra?

Of course a heavey cannon group can clear dynamis faster than a standard group, because thats WHY they're cannon jobs. If you're trying to argue that because the spartan group can do it in 2 that they're wrong?

Yes, most people at endgame levels DO have at least one of the cannon jobs, or a support job linked to such a group. If you have a group of players, where each player has one of those jobs leveled, you're going to ask them to bring those jobs.

You're arguing that because they CAN do it faster, that they're wrong for doing so.

 

[Bajaratt]

Have you wondered why the group configuration of that one group hasn't been disclosed? Doing so would have been the strongest evidence for their argument if they wanted to argue that they don't have a skewed job configuration--instead, they acknowledged the skew, and argued instead that it is normal for most people to have "merit jobs" leveled. We're not talking about a bare-minimum majority here. We're talking most, as in, maybe one drg and one sam in the whole group. There were probably brds in most parties. Those are things you can deduce from the time and # of people.

Just doing a search and saying "oh, there are more wars and nins than drgs" doesn't say much. While I will tell you that it's pretty unlikely that the group of 34 mentioned before will clear sandoria even with the full hourglass, that's something I won't sit here arguing with you since it'll be nearly impossible to prove to each other.

However, the whole argument which makes out the job differences to be minimal is trivial to debunk. The side you're trying to argue for is claiming that a group of unskewed 34 is just as capable as the group of 30 with a very spartan configuration. Then, the obvious corollary to that would be that such a group should be able to clear sandoria in under 2 hours, as there exist groups of 30 which can do that.

Can you take that group and clear sandoria in 2 hours or less, or can't you? That shouldn't be too hard to answer.

You're completely ignoring how using the numbers you gave based on my search of level 75 jobs, there was only 1 drg, 1 drk, 1 sam(sam is excellent in dynamis, but then you ignore that since it's not a cannon job); that's the exact same configuration as you're saying the other group is using.

So again, I see no reason why that group of 34 unskewed members sould not be able to clear the zones.

 

[metachronism]

Can you take a group of 42 DRGs and DRKs and kill Vrtra?

Of course a heavey cannon group can clear dynamis faster than a standard group, because thats WHY they're cannon jobs. If you're trying to argue that because the spartan group can do it in 2 that they're wrong?

Yes, most people at endgame levels DO have at least one of the cannon jobs, or a support job linked to such a group. If you have a group of players, where each player has one of those jobs leveled, you're going to ask them to bring those jobs.

You're arguing that because they CAN do it faster, that they're wrong for doing so.

Nowhere do I say it's wrong. If *you* have the people to do that, go ahead, do it. But what I've been saying all along is, how many LSs actually look like a giant merit party with blms? Unless you're going to claim that they all do, you'd better not make the claim that that is the norm.

If you're gonna use the search numbers (which I won't even agree is a valid representation of the server) are you going to say that 1/3 of the server is not a significant population? The fact of the matter is that you *will* have quite a few players who have only 1 job at 75, and it's not all going to be the cannon jobs. If *you* don't work with such people, that's fine. But don't dismiss their exisitence and claim that numbers attained with the 1/3 population downscaled to 1/15 in *your* group to be the standard.

 

[metachronism]

You're completely ignoring how using the numbers you gave based on my search of level 75 jobs, there was only 1 drg, 1 drk, 1 sam(sam is excellent in dynamis, but then you ignore that since it's not a cannon job); that's the exact same configuration as you're saying the other group is using.

So again, I see no reason why that group of 34 unskewed members sould not be able to clear the zones.

You see how that magically coincides with the 34 configuration mentioned the first time? You need to scale things. It's not "just one", it's a ~20% change in the "melee that doesn't have utsusemi" distribution. 20% is a huge difference in whether you can reach critical mass and enter zerg mode or not. Obviously, if only a subsection of the melee try to zerg, they just end up dead because the hits aren't beig distributed.

Also, in pointing out that there are "only 1" of some jobs, I hope you also noticed that you only have 1 bard? That makes a big difference too.

Answer the question: is that group going to perform the same as the group of 30 with a very restrictive selection on jobs? If it's not, the claim about the difference being "minimal" can't be supported.

 

[Bajaratt]

Nowhere do I say it's wrong. If *you* have the people to do that, go ahead, do it. But what I've been saying all along is, how many LSs actually look like a giant merit party with blms? Unless you're going to claim that they all do, you'd better not make the claim that that is the norm.

If you're gonna use the search numbers (which I won't even agree is a valid representation of the server) are you going to say that 1/3 of the server is not a significant population? The fact of the matter is that you *will* have quite a few players who have only 1 job at 75, and it's not all going to be the cannon jobs. If *you* don't work with such people, that's fine. But don't dismiss their exisitence and claim that numbers attained with the 1/3 population downscaled to 1/15 in *your* group to be the standard.

Maybe not all do, since I don't know about every single linkshell, but the majority do; therefore it is the norm. It doesn't have to be an absolute to be the norm.

At no point did anyone besides you say that they don't allow the non-cannon jobs in; in fact, they have said repeatedly that they do let them in. You are the only one making up that argument, but you continue to ignore this point; only you are talking about excluding people for being a non-cannon job. Courtney even said that they have people on their first job, not 75, no merits, average gear, and a non-cannon job; there is no discrimination. What everyone else is actually talking about, is that when they have a non-cannon and a cannon job, they usually come on the cannon job. For all your posturing about everyone else needing to learn reading comprehension, you're awfully consistent in ignoring this point.

 

[Bajaratt]

You see how that magically coincides with the 34 configuration mentioned the first time? You need to scale things. It's not "just one", it's a ~20% change in the "melee that doesn't have utsusemi" distribution. 20% is a huge difference in whether you can reach critical mass and enter zerg mode or not. Obviously, if only a subsection of the melee try to zerg, they just end up dead because the hits aren't beig distributed.

Also, in pointing out that there are "only 1" of some jobs, I hope you also noticed that you only have 1 bard? That makes a big difference too.

Answer the question: is that group going to perform the same as the group of 30 with a very restrictive selection on jobs? If it's not, the claim about the difference being "minimal" can't be supported.

If the non-cannon jobs really do as little damage as you claim(another wrong statement btw), then they won't do enough damage to pull hate, so they won't need utsusemi to mitigate damage. The only way they'd be hurt is from AoE, which would hurt them even if they had utsusemi, so they are able to deal damage but don't need the same level of survivability, even though they all have their own methods to enhance their survivability.

 

[Marajade]

Nowhere do I say it's wrong. If *you* have the people to do that, go ahead, do it. But what I've been saying all along is, how many LSs actually look like a giant merit party with blms? Unless you're going to claim that they all do, you'd better not make the claim that that is the norm.

Do you even look at the attendance jobs of your own LS?

PA has more monks and warriors attending than every other non-tank job combined, and there's almost always 4+ ninjas at any time.
There's always at least 1 and a half BLM parties when the bother to attend, about 6 WHMs, and just as many RDMs.

I AFKed half of dynamis and i still notice this stuff.

 

[Artem]

Do you even look at the attendance jobs of your own LS?

PA has more monks and warriors attending than every other non-tank job combined, and there's almost always 4+ ninjas at any time.
There's always at least 1 and a half BLM parties when the bother to attend, about 6 WHMs, and just as many RDMs.

I AFKed half of dynamis and i still notice this stuff.

hahahahahahahahaahaha

you win

 

[metachronism]

If the non-cannon jobs really do as little damage as you claim(another wrong statement btw), then they won't do enough damage to pull hate, so they won't need utsusemi to mitigate damage. The only way they'd be hurt is from AoE, which would hurt them even if they had utsusemi, so they are able to deal damage but don't need the same level of survivability, even though they all have their own methods to enhance their survivability.

It's been said many times, long ago, that anyone *can* do damage to produce hate beyond what a tank can produce instantaneously. The point is whether they can do it without consequence. People being able to WS right away on a mob, in a cascading manner lets you take the mob down without even thinking about hate, while the ones who don' thave utsusemi have to hold back. The difference is astronomical. That's the difference between a cannon merit party and the orthodox tank/dd setup. It's the difference in xp/hr numbers you see, and I hope you're not going to say the difference is small. How many pld tank merit parties do you see in bhaflau?

 

[Bajaratt]

It's been said many times, long ago, that anyone *can* do damage to produce hate beyond what a tank can produce instantaneously. The point is whether they can do it without consequence. People being able to WS right away on a mob, in a cascading manner lets you take the mob down without even thinking about hate, while the ones who don' thave utsusemi have to hold back. The difference is astronomical. That's the difference between a cannon merit party and the orthodox tank/dd setup. It's the difference in xp/hr numbers you see, and I hope you're not going to say the difference is small. How many pld tank merit parties do you see in bhaflau?

The other jobs have methods of mitigating their damage or their hate without utsusemi, which you continue to ignore. While they're not as effective as utsusemi for exp, given how fast you fight and the low numbers, they are more than enough for dynamis. Since you apparently don't know about the non-cannon jobs, I'll fill you in:

DRG has high jump and super jump to lower their hate, or they can sub a mage job to heal themselves and be fairly self-sufficient.

DRK has stun, drain and aspir; so they can stop the mob from hitting them or heal themselves if they do get hit, thus not being a MP sponge for the mages.

SAM has third eye and with the addition of seigan, it's almost at the level of utsusemi in terms of damage mitigation.

SAM and DRK(maybe DRG, I'm not sure) can sub thief so that weapon skill at the beginning of the fight would put the hate onto the tank, thus doing damage without draining mp. Utsusemi is not the only thing in the world, despite what you seem to think.

What happens in exp parties is irrelevant to what happens in dynamis, quit trying to morph the discussion because you're losing. You build TP slower in dynamis, because with 20+ people whacking away at the mob, you're not going to get many hits in before it's dead. That means you won't start every fight with TP, so even if you were correct that other jobs would be an mp sink(you're still wrong, btw), they would only be an MP sink every few monsters, giving the mages more than enough time to recover some of that MP unless those mages are idiots.

Plus, if 5 people do weapon skills on a single non-NM monster in dynamis, it's going to be either dead or just about to die unless those melee's are gimp. If you're still going to try to hold onto the flawed idea that melee's will have 100% tp at the start of every mob, then they could all use their weapon skills at the start and the mob would be dead in 1 second; that's hardly a chance for them to become an MP drain.

If your members aren't retarded, there's no reason they couldn't clear zones just like a group of the cannon jobs could. Utsusemi isn't required to be able to survive, but it is idiot-proof, so even morons can survive with it. The people with more than 10 brain cells don't need it to play their jobs effectively though.

 

[metachronism]

Do you even look at the attendance jobs of your own LS?

PA has more monks and warriors attending than every other non-tank job combined, and there's almost always 4+ ninjas at any time.
There's always at least 1 and a half BLM parties when the bother to attend, about 6 WHMs, and just as many RDMs.

I AFKed half of dynamis and i still notice this stuff.

Marajade, not only were you useless but you weren't even observing the people you were leeching off of. The last time we had 4 ninjas running around was much before christmas--in fact, *every one* of the numbers you cite are incorrect. We've maybe had one or two runs where any one of those peak numbers were reached.

And I don't think you were afk half the time, it was more like 3/4 of the time. Don't give yourself so much credit. That's exactly why your useless ass is not in the LS anymore, despite the plethora of chances you were given.

How brilliant it is for you to come out publically and say "I'm a useless afk bitch" merely for attempt at making a point against me--then again, you already have a reputation for that anyway, don'tyou?

 

[Artem]

It's been said many times, long ago, that anyone *can* do damage to produce hate beyond what a tank can produce instantaneously. The point is whether they can do it without consequence. People being able to WS right away on a mob, in a cascading manner lets you take the mob down without even thinking about hate, while the ones who don' thave utsusemi have to hold back. The difference is astronomical. That's the difference between a cannon merit party and the orthodox tank/dd setup. It's the difference in xp/hr numbers you see, and I hope you're not going to say the difference is small. How many pld tank merit parties do you see in bhaflau?

Have you ever meritted? The difference between using "merit jobs" and tank/dd set up is that normal DD's such as DRG etc don't gain tp nearly as fast as a war/mnk/nin in merit situation. In merit, every war and what not will gain full tp+ a fight, a dragoon won't. That's not an issue in dynamis. Noone gains more than 20-30 tp a mob. Or atleast they shouldn't, unless your dynamis mobs take longer to kill than merit mobs... but than no number of cannon jobs will be help you with that. The difference between DRG and WAR and whatever on normal dynamis mobs is very small. It's not about utsusemi in dynamis. Only tanks need utsusemi in dynamis.

 

[metachronism]

DRG has high jump and super jump to lower their hate, or they can sub a mage job to heal themselves and be fairly self-sufficient.

Do you think a drg has either one of those every time he has a WS ready? If you didn't know, they're on 3 minute timers. Also, when the 2hrs are triggered, they are useless because you are dead.

DRK has stun, drain and aspir; so they can stop the mob from hitting them or heal themselves if they do get hit, thus not being a MP sponge for the mages.

Does it matter if you have stun if you just ate a 1500 eagle eye and died? Guess what, when the average damage taken per hit is 200-300, a drain or aspir once per 45 seconds doesn't do shit.

SAM has third eye and with the addition of seigan, it's almost at the level of utsusemi in terms of damage mitigation.

Sure, it's better than nothing. No, it's nowhere near the level of utsusemi, as you can't just put up another when it's eradicated by an aoe.

SAM and DRK(maybe DRG, I'm not sure) can sub thief so that weapon skill at the beginning of the fight would put the hate onto the tank, thus doing damage without draining mp. Utsusemi is not the only thing in the world, despite what you seem to think.

You can, but are you going to argue that the damage a /thf ace job does *anywhere* near what a merit melee sub nin can do? It's going to be less than half. Why the hell do you think thfs and /thfs don't get invited to merit parties?

What happens in exp parties is irrelevant to what happens in dynamis, quit trying to morph the discussion because you're losing. You build TP slower in dynamis, because with 20+ people whacking away at the mob, you're not going to get many hits in before it's dead. That means you won't start every fight with TP, so even if you were correct that other jobs would be an mp sink(you're still wrong, btw), they would only be an MP sink every few monsters, giving the mages more than enough time to recover some of that MP unless those mages are idiots.


Plus, if 5 people do weapon skills on a single non-NM monster in dynamis, it's going to be either dead or just about to die unless those melee's are gimp. If you're still going to try to hold onto the flawed idea that melee's will have 100% tp at the start of every mob, then they could all use their weapon skills at the start and the mob would be dead in 1 second; that's hardly a chance for them to become an MP drain.

The fact that people don't all have 100TP at every mob is *exactly* why there is a disparity between groups with the merit melees and the ones that don't. It doesn't take a barrage of 20 WS for a mob to die. At the same time, itit means that you need a shifting window of people who are available to be doing the WS.

If you think what happens in merit parties is irrelevant, there really is nothing else to discuss, as that is the *exact* analogue of the hate model, the damage output, and the as a consequence, the efficiency argument. When I see the kind of claims people make on here, I get the feeling they've never parsed damage logs of the different jobs, and the damage they take.

If your members aren't retarded, there's no reason they couldn't clear zones just like a group of the cannon jobs could. Utsusemi isn't required to be able to survive, but it is idiot-proof, so even morons can survive with it. The people with more than 10 brain cells don't need it to play their jobs effectively though.

Go through the items you listed. You might think the differences are miniscule, but they're not. And they add up, very quickly.

 

[metachronism]

Have you ever meritted? The difference between using "merit jobs" and tank/dd set up is that normal DD's such as DRG etc don't gain tp nearly as fast as a war/mnk/nin in merit situation. In merit, every war and what not will gain full tp+ a fight, a dragoon won't. That's not an issue in dynamis. Noone gains more than 20-30 tp a mob. Or atleast they shouldn't, unless your dynamis mobs take longer to kill than merit mobs... but than no number of cannon jobs will be help you with that. The difference between DRG and WAR and whatever on normal dynamis mobs is very small. It's not about utsusemi in dynamis. Only tanks need utsusemi in dynamis.

So you're at about the same level as bajaratt. Perhaps you'd benefit from looking into gaussian distributions. What is this idiotic assumption that people all start from 0 on every mob, get X TP, go on to the next, and then all unload...?

And if you think the damage disparity comes from just the TP accumulation rate... I would suggest you go look at parsed logs.

 

[Uzor]

So you're at about the same level as bajaratt. Perhaps you'd benefit from looking into gaussian distributions. What is this idiotic assumption that people all start from 0 on every mob, get X TP, go on to the next, and then all unload...?

And if you think the damage disparity comes from just the TP accumulation rate... I would suggest you go look at parsed logs.

Exactly. And you still say they'll pull hate from using a WS at 100% TP at 95% of a mob's HP. Even though no job gets 100% TP per mob in Dynamis.

What does this come down to? That the cool down timers are enough to avoud pulling hate most of the time, and that you won't pull hate from meleeing.