Question to other Dynamis LS's

[Bajaratt]

Just to nitpick and because you seemed to want to teach a class on alliance design, this line is really preposterous.

If you want the COR to refresh the blms you should have at least given her the smn, and even that way, getting all blms in range of a roll will be pretty hard if they are all moving (as they should be) to nuke stones, help bring down mobs on 2hrs (Invin/PD), help on sleeps and stuns, and constantly stay out of range of any sort of AoE (including Mijin).

The way you have it, the blms will be getting (even in ideal "we are all in range for a roll" conditions) +matk and very weak refresh, which they don't need anyway with the rdm in the party. To be honest, blms really have no need for refresh with mp stones and the strenght of Aspir on double-dark weather with the correct equipment.

With something like WAR, DRK, SAM, SAM, COR, WHM you help your efficiency a lot more, since the significant +atk and +DA will give that party high damage rate and they will all be close (namely, around the mob) for the COR to keep them buffed full time. In fact, if she's good enough she'll be rolling for the WHM too to improve +hMP.

I think the whole point of putting the COR in the blm party is the magic attack, the refresh is just a small bonus but not the primary reason. Since he's going in with a smaller number of black mages than most linkshells, it would make sense to get the most out of their nukes, hence the +magic attack roll. While there is a bunch of methods(mp stones/aspir) for blm's to regain mp, I don't think you'd ever see a blm complain about having too much mp; well, not one in their right mind.

Going in as a melee, I'd rather have +crit than +attack from a COR, since bard gives significantly more +attack with a single minuet.

 

[Rommie]

I think the whole point of putting the COR in the blm party is the magic attack, the refresh is just a small bonus but not the primary reason. Since he's going in with a smaller number of black mages than most linkshells, it would make sense to get the most out of their nukes, hence the +magic attack roll. While there is a bunch of methods(mp stones/aspir) for blm's to regain mp, I don't think you'd ever see a blm complain about having too much mp; well, not one in their right mind.

Going in as a melee, I'd rather have +crit than +attack from a COR, since bard gives significantly more +attack with a single minuet.

The +matk will do nothing (basically, stones will die in 2-3 nukes as usual depending on resist rates). If anything, it's actually possible than Warlock's Roll would be more effective in general by reducing resist rates.

While I can't argue with "the more mp the better", the little refresh from the COR will be nothing compared to all the damage it can add in the other party. The whole point of small-number tactics is making sure each job is used to the fullest, I would say.

And yes, +crit would be nice if you had the bard, but with the numbers used there wasn't a spare bard for that party.

 

[Artem]

Uzor, are you saying that the configuration of 34...or rather, 36 you have given is capable of clearing out the zone in 2 hours? I think it goes without saying, but the band of 30 which did clear in 2 hours was... well, essentially an army of wars, very few of other jobs mixed in, and the obligatory mage/brd support staff. I don't think there need to be an argument made that the configuration you came up with will come anywhere near the same kill rate.

problem 1) alliance2 is in utter dearth of curing capabilities. If people exercise control and not take hate, yes, you might be able to get by in bastok. Sandoria? Out of the question. Jeuno and Windurst are not one of the zones commonly taken down in low numbers, but it goes without saying that the frying pans and other aoe will make it infeasible.

problem 2) fragility/low damage output. as you mentioned, you rely on the pld always maintaining hate. This means that your dd can't unleash WS right away on a new mob, and your kill rate suffers from that.

I think you missed the point. Everyone knows you can *do* dynamis without unrealistic confugurations like the army of wars--and that's how it was meant by SE to be done. You do that, I do that, and in fact, most NA dynamis LSs do that. They don't run in with a bunch of "god" jobs--as you put it--in low numbers and mow everything in the zone down.

As you can see from trying the "34 man worksheet" it should've been apparent that as you deviate from spartan configurations, that courtney's supposition of "well, just replace the merit melee jobs with other ones, but just add a few more" doesn't work--because the number of mages need to scale superlinearly to it as you lose the utsusemi casters (well, maybe you didn't, since some of your parties are unrealistically lacking in healing). You take more damage which needs to be cured. You lose utsusemi casters to crowd control. You can't spam WS at the beginning of a new mob. This is what I was referring to as the logistical problems that was totally overlooked.

Since you are so proud of being able to read, how come you can't understand the simple fact that you are the one that came up with the number 30?

Courtney said:

One of the Shells I'm in clears Bastok with 55min remaining and Sandy with 30min remaining, with 35-40 people. I'd say with a 64 it would be very possible.

Surely clearing the zone faster is more efficient? I've never heard of killing more mobs or getting more drops by killing slower?



The reason Dynamis Shells have so many RDM/WHM/BLMs is because most endgame players have at least one of these jobs levelled. In endgame situations, these jobs are almost always needed, whereas a lot of jobs aren't. A Dynamis Shell may not take in 12 RDMs but it's likely that they have 12 members that play RDM...

That's 35-40, that's 5-10 more people than you are giving them credit for. You are the one who came up with the number 30.

Clearing the zone is not what's difficult. What's difficult is maximizing the farming while still ensuring that other needs are met (i.e. getting wins for new people, getting attestations etc). The statistics deci quoted is for a "for the win" run in which the LS killed the boss with well over an hour left on the hourglass. Gone are the days in which you can book a zone at whim (especially on the contentious days), and it's imperative that you take things on the safe side if you have scheduled agendas to meet.

In all honesty, you can clear the cities with 30 people in under 2 hours if your melee jobs are overwhelmingly nin or war/nin and have bards. However, if you have an egalitarian LS which doesn't discriminate against people without the "optimal jobs" (which, I hope is true for most LSs out there), clearing in under 2 hours with such numbers, especially with an ensured win, is pretty difficult.

By the way, what is this about plds being scared of mnks? They could straight up tank mnks long before the sentinel update, and if it looked bad, they always had the option of kiting.

Also notice how you said in under 2 hours, Courtney never said that. He said his fastest time for clearing Bastok left them with 55 minutes. That's Bastok only. Considering their dynamis is a consistent core of players with lots of experience, I have no doubt they do that. He also said that their players do not have "godly" gear by any means. They have one a.berk in their whole dynamis ls. You are the one who said they do it in under 2 hours with 30 people by only inviting merit jobs. Courtney even clearly said, they have people who aren't even 75 in the LS. Just because some Dynamis LS don't have experience to clear zones faster than others, does not make the others elitist.

EDIT: Comment on the bold "meant." You must be one of those people that thinks SE did not "mean" for ninja to be tanks, so noone should tank on ninja. SE does not intent anything, they design things to work without cheating, strategies to accomplishing them are up to the players.

 

[Uzor]

Uzor, are you saying that the configuration of 34...or rather, 36 you have given is capable of clearing out the zone in 2 hours? I think it goes without saying, but the band of 30 which did clear in 2 hours was... well, essentially an army of wars, very few of other jobs mixed in, and the obligatory mage/brd support staff. I don't think there need to be an argument made that the configuration you came up with will come anywhere near the same kill rate.

problem 1) alliance2 is in utter dearth of curing capabilities. If people exercise control and not take hate, yes, you might be able to get by in bastok. Sandoria? Out of the question. Jeuno and Windurst are not one of the zones commonly taken down in low numbers, but it goes without saying that the frying pans and other aoe will make it infeasible.

problem 2) fragility/low damage output. as you mentioned, you rely on the pld always maintaining hate. This means that your dd can't unleash WS right away on a new mob, and your kill rate suffers from that.

I think you missed the point. Everyone knows you can *do* dynamis without unrealistic confugurations like the army of wars--and that's how it was meant by SE to be done. You do that, I do that, and in fact, most NA dynamis LSs do that. They don't run in with a bunch of "god" jobs--as you put it--in low numbers and mow everything in the zone down.

As you can see from trying the "34 man worksheet" it should've been apparent that as you deviate from spartan configurations, that courtney's supposition of "well, just replace the merit melee jobs with other ones, but just add a few more" doesn't work--because the number of mages need to scale superlinearly to it as you lose the utsusemi casters (well, maybe you didn't, since some of your parties are unrealistically lacking in healing). You take more damage which needs to be cured. You lose utsusemi casters to crowd control. You can't spam WS at the beginning of a new mob. This is what I was referring to as the logistical problems that was totally overlooked.

Not 2 hours, but 3 hours 30 min, yes. And the god jobs wasn't my definition, it's you that said they can do anything. I assumed you think they're god jobs then.

And you seem rather unknowledgable about Dynamis. As I said, they have healing. They don't need more. Melees don't take all that much damage in Dynamis.

Just to nitpick and because you seemed to want to teach a class on alliance design, this line is really preposterous.

If you want the COR to refresh the blms you should have at least given her the smn, and even that way, getting all blms in range of a roll will be pretty hard if they are all moving (as they should be) to nuke stones, help bring down mobs on 2hrs (Invin/PD), help on sleeps and stuns, and constantly stay out of range of any sort of AoE (including Mijin).

Not much harder then getting them in range for ballad. Which is also why the RDM is in their party, to give them a refresh not dependent on them standing in range.

The way you have it, the blms will be getting (even in ideal "we are all in range for a roll" conditions) +matk and very weak refresh, which they don't need anyway with the rdm in the party. To be honest, blms really have no need for refresh with mp stones and the strenght of Aspir on double-dark weather with the correct equipment.

1-4 refresh isn't all that weak. It'll average out at about 2.5 since the lucky number is easy to get on evoker's roll.

And exactly, they don't need the refreshes. So them being out of range of Evoker's Roll really won't matter all that much. So placing the SMN in the BLM party wouldn't help, and he'd be much better of curing a melee party.

With something like WAR, DRK, SAM, SAM, COR, WHM you help your efficiency a lot more, since the significant +atk and +DA will give that party high damage rate and they will all be close (namely, around the mob) for the COR to keep them buffed full time. In fact, if she's good enough she'll be rolling for the WHM too to improve +hMP.

BRD is usually more effective then a COR in most cases. While yes, you could put the BRD in the BLM's party and the COR in the WAR's party, the results pretty much end up being either the same or only slightly different. The difference is that the BLMes will get Magic Attack (ans Magic Accuracy for the end boss), which usually helps more due to the lower number of mages.

And Since you seem to enjoy nuking PLD's invincible and perfect dodge, magic attack will make them die faster.

 

[Rommie]

BRD is usually more effective then a COR in most cases. While yes, you could put the BRD in the BLM's party and the COR in the WAR's party, the results pretty much end up being either the same or only slightly different. The difference is that the BLMes will get Magic Attack (ans Magic Accuracy for the end boss), which usually helps more due to the lower number of mages.

You had a "random melee party" without BRD, so all your melees are not getting buffed and you have a wasted COR. The point about "rolling for them is the same as hitting them with ballad" is exactly why, unless you have them in excessive numbers, a brd is always better used somewhere other than the cannon.

Comparing the gained +matk of the occasional nuke on 2hrs (as the +matk will do nothing in stones) to +DA and +atk (or +crit depending on where you put the COR) to a bunch of melees, is not even worth arguing.

And kindly don't put quotes from two different people in the same reply, it's kind of confusing.

 

[Uzor]

You had a "random melee party" without BRD, so all your melees are not getting buffed and you have a wasted COR. The point about "rolling for them is the same as hitting them with ballad" is exactly why, unless you have them in excessive numbers, a brd is always better used somewhere other than the cannon.

Comparing the gained +matk of the occasional nuke on 2hrs (as the +matk will do nothing in stones) to +DA and +atk (or +crit depending on where you put the COR) to a bunch of melees, is not even worth arguing.

And kindly don't put quotes from two different people in the same reply, it's kind of confusing.

That's because the random melee party isn't ment to deal damage. While yes, they can deal damage, the most important part is to assist the puller in pulling. They can melee aswell, though. That's why the BRD's and COR's are better spent in the other parties. And melees prefer BRD over COR's, since double minuet > Chaos Roll. While yes, Assasin's Roll can be usefull, I personally prefer double minuet as a melee. Thus, the COR is usefull in the BLM party.

Yes, the random melee party can be better, but Meta said that there couldn't be good usefull jobs in Dynamis. So I had to work around what I had. The BLMes also aren't limited to only nuking during 2-hours, you know...

And yet, magic attack do work on stones, not just as well as you might want it to due to the 50% magic defence bonus.

And the qute was different parts. If you read the quotes parts, you'd see the top one clearly says "Originally Posted by metachronis", while the other one says "Originally Posted by Rommie", see? Not hard to keep track of it.

edit: you also forget COR have the ability to reset abilities, so with the ability to reset elemental seal every 20 min, it's rather usefull. COR can also reset manafont with their 2-hour (provided he rolls the right roll). You also seem to forget that rolls last 5 min, and is on a 1 min recast time. Which means there's plenty of time to get evoker's roll and sorcerer's/warlock's roll up on all the BLMes. And with warlock's roll (and the RDM in the party), their drains and aspirs will drain for the camp much more often then it normally would.

 

[Rommie]

That's because the random melee party isn't ment to deal damage. While yes, they can deal damage, the most important part is to assist the puller in pulling.

"THF DRG SAM RNG DRK RDM"

It's obvious to everyone that party is clearly not meant to deal damage.

And it's also obvious that having "COR THF SAM RNG DRK RDM" and "BLM BLM BLM THF RDM DRG" is significantly inferior to your design because everyone knows that the BLMs in dynamis do so much more damage to regular mobs with a bit of +matk and 2.5 refresh than buffed sam/rng/drk could ever hope for.

Thank you for explaining this to me.

And also thank you for explaning me how internet forums work, and how it's clearly more effective for everyone to have to read your entire posts in case there's something meant for them somewhere, rather than using a single post to reply to each person.

Now I will go back to lurking, I'm clearly no match for the display of knowledge and wisdom displayed here.

 

[metachronism]

Since you are so proud of being able to read, how come you can't understand the simple fact that you are the one that came up with the number 30?

Courtney said:



That's 35-40, that's 5-10 more people than you are giving them credit for. You are the one who came up with the number 30.

Since I guess you pride yourself in your lack of the ability to read, why don't you go and check who came up with the 34? 30 in 2 hours is what is publically known as the most spartan setup in which this was done. Is it too complicated for you that the whole point of the 30 spartan->34 "suboptimal" argument was the job distribution change creates an insurmountable wall for the 34 "suboptimal" setup to match what the spartan 30 can do?

Also notice how you said in under 2 hours, Courtney never said that. He said his fastest time for clearing Bastok left them with 55 minutes. That's Bastok only. Considering their dynamis is a consistent core of players with lots of experience, I have no doubt they do that. He also said that their players do not have "godly" gear by any means. They have one a.berk in their whole dynamis ls. You are the one who said they do it in under 2 hours with 30 people by only inviting merit jobs. Courtney even clearly said, they have people who aren't even 75 in the LS. Just because some Dynamis LS don't have experience to clear zones faster than others, does not make the others elitist.

Are you unable to keep up when there's more than 1 thing talked about the thread? We already know courtney's LS is a watered down version of the merit style archetype. That's why the numbers aren't as extreme as the 30man example. How does this affect the argument? That particular subject can, and already has been trivially addressed by courtney himself: he has said that his LS configuration is predominantly merit jobs. And the outlandish claim by courtney (which you implicitly refuted by coming in and arguing about the "end game player job profile") that the job distribution has nothing to do with the fact that courtney's LS does pull off the results it does is undermined by the fact that none of you have yet to even suggest an alternative configuration with the "suboptimal" jobs included which can yield comparable results in comparable numbers.

EDIT: Comment on the bold "meant." You must be one of those people that thinks SE did not "mean" for ninja to be tanks, so noone should tank on ninja. SE does not intent anything, they design things to work without cheating, strategies to accomplishing them are up to the players.

I fail to see the connection you're trying to make. Ninja was a design error. SE knows that, and adjusted the subsequent game content around its existence because they knew people will bitch if the take it away. How does that have anything to do with the logistics which already accounts for their existence? Dynamis accounts for the existence of ninjas and sub nins. But nothing in this game assumes an army thereof, because if it did, you'll *really* have no reason to play a job besides the merit favorites, since should you not come with that setup, you just won't be able to do it.

Unfortunately stacking nins and merit favorite jobs+/nins*does* yield better results for almost everything in this game because the merit jobs (read: the ones that have utsusemi, berserk, {dual wield, martial arts}) have unequivocal advantages over the others. Surely, you're not going to call the stacking of nins and /nins "strategy"?

 

[Courtney]

There isn't really any point, Artem. Whenever he gets a response he doesn't like, he just ignores it, and then proceeds to invent a whole new series of "facts" that he sees as supporting his argument. Throw in a few flames for good measure, and that's been the sum total of his input.

And the outlandish claim by courtney (which you implicitly refuted by coming in and arguing about the "end game player job profile") that the job distribution has nothing to do with the fact that courtney's LS does pull off the results it does

Let's add this to the long list of invented statements, although I guess it well beyond mattering...

 

[metachronism]

There isn't really any point, Artem. Whenever he gets a response he doesn't like, he just ignores it, and then proceeds to invent a whole new series of "facts" that he sees as supporting his argument. Throw in a few flames for good measure, and that's been the sum total of his input.





Let's add this to the long list of invented statements, although I guess it well beyond mattering...

Given:

And the outlandish claim by courtney (which you implicitly refuted by coming in and arguing about the "end game player job profile") that the job distribution has nothing to do with the fact that courtney's LS does pull off the results it does

I'd rather not be credited with the creation of:

A BST may not be able to do the same damage as a WAR, but non-optimal DDs don't much of an impact on efficiency.

You really can't expect me to respond to every one of your dilly-dallying posts that averts the cerntral points.

Does it or doesn't it make a difference on efficiency? How many wars and nins can you swap out for BST and lose utsusemi or berserk and provoke? Do you honestly believe it would not make "much of an impact of efficinecy" if you replaced your "mostly war, nin, mnk" with "mostly bsts, drgs, and drks"? If the answer is "yes" then I'm absolutely sorry for accusing you of elitism. It would be something totally different I'd have to deride you for.

 

[Uzor]

"THF DRG SAM RNG DRK RDM"

It's obvious to everyone that party is clearly not meant to deal damage.

And it's also obvious that having "COR THF SAM RNG DRK RDM" and "BLM BLM BLM THF RDM DRG" is significantly inferior to your design because everyone knows that the BLMs in dynamis do so much more damage to regular mobs with a bit of +matk and 2.5 refresh than buffed sam/rng/drk could ever hope for.

Thank you for explaining this to me.

And also thank you for explaning me how internet forums work, and how it's clearly more effective for everyone to have to read your entire posts in case there's something meant for them somewhere, rather than using a single post to reply to each person.

Now I will go back to lurking, I'm clearly no match for the display of knowledge and wisdom displayed here.

I assume you've never really done Dynamis. But yes, the COR is more usefull in the BLM party. Unless you pull 1 stone at a time, 3 BLMes will end up having MP problems occasionally. In order to make their MP last longer, refresh do help. Even if it's from a COR. Sorcerer's Roll helps their MP further, and Warlock's Roll prevent them from getting unresisted from the end boss.

Yes, BLMes do have aspir etc. to keep their MP up, it won't be effective enough to keep their MP at top at all times when you only have 3 of them, assuming you don't make any breaks to rest for MP (which reduces mobs killed, which reduces efficiency). Thus, even if it's just a 2.5 refresh, it do help.

Now, you can argue that a SMN would be usefull in the BLM party. Why, yes. It would. But it would also leave a melee party without any healing. The question you have to ask yourself it this: Is it worth it to make the BLMes slightly more efficient by making a melee party completely out of healing, thus increasing the chance they'll die and reduce efficiency, or would it be better to keep the SMN in the melee party?

Personally, I think having the SMN in the melee party is better. It means their chance of dieing decreases, which both helps efficiency, and their exp loss.

The second question you have to ask yourself is this; is it worth increasing the melee's efficiency by having the COR in the puller party, or would it be better to have it in the BLM party to make them more efficient.

There's a thin line between it, and it really comes down to preferance. Melees can still melee without MP and COR buffs. a BLM, however, can't kill stuff without MP. And if the BLMes are out of MP at a bad time like, say, a link, you're left with the 1 SMN and the 2 RDMes to kill the stones. And I just don't think that's possible to do. So you're either sacrificing MP for the BLMes, thus potentially leading to a wipe due to not having enough nuke power to kill the stones, or you're increasing the efficiency of the melees.

Yes, you can argue that having a BRD in the party would be better. I agree, it is possible. And it all really comes down to preferance. I won't argue that a BRD could potentially be more usefull in the BLM party, but in this hypothetical situation I chose to put a COR in it.

 

[Uzor]

Given:



I'd rather not be credited with the creation of:



You really can't expect me to respond to every one of your dilly-dallying posts that averts the cerntral points.

Does it or doesn't it make a difference on efficiency? How many wars and nins can you swap out for BST and lose utsusemi or berserk and provoke? Do you honestly believe it would not make "much of an impact of efficinecy" if you replaced your "mostly war, nin, mnk" with "mostly bsts, drgs, and drks"? If the answer is "yes" then I'm absolutely sorry for accusing you of elitism. It would be something totally different I'd have to deride you for.

Answer me this. If you see a BST and a WAR seeking, which one do you chose for a merit party? Do you chose the BST out of pity, or do you chose the WAR for efficiency?

and a FYI, a BST with relic axe can and will be a better DD then a WAR. That axe is just sick. 75% intimidation rate, yes please. That WS alone keeps up well with rampage =/

 

[metachronism]

Answer me this. If you see a BST and a WAR seeking, which one do you chose for a merit party? Do you chose the BST out of pity, or do you chose the WAR for efficiency?

and a FYI, a BST with relic axe can and will be a better DD then a WAR. That axe is just sick. 75% intimidation rate, yes please. That WS alone keeps up well with rampage =/

The question is not "what job do you choose to occupy the last slot of your merit party" It's more like "If you have ninx3 in your merity party, you can't do much worse than 12k/hr. If you replace them with bstx3, what xp/hr should you expect?" Of course, there's the obvious logistics problem of, "well bsts can't have utsusemi and provoke so the mages will get raped"

Relic axe is kind of cool, but the additional effect (drown or something) makes it a nuisance, I heard. Also, relic axe or not, the bst's damage doesn't impress without berserk + minuet. But what happens when bst subs war? Oops. No utsusemi. Oops, can't spam uber WS because you'd just get raped (we don't have beastmen-killer, now do we?).

 

[Uzor]

The question is not "what job do you choose to occupy the last slot of your merit party" It's more like "If you have ninx3 in your merity party, you can't do much worse than 12k/hr. If you replace them with bstx3, what xp/hr should you expect?" Of course, there's the obvious logistics problem of, "well bsts can't have utsusemi and provoke so the mages will get raped"

Relic axe is kind of cool, but the additional effect (drown or something) makes it a nuisance, I heard. Also, relic axe or not, the bst's damage doesn't impress without berserk + minuet. But what happens when bst subs war? Oops. No utsusemi. Oops, can't spam uber WS because you'd just get raped (we don't have beastmen-killer, now do we?).

No, but one could assume those godly NIN's and WAR's you're speaking of could keep hate, right?

There's always DRK's... they can't sub NIN either unless they want to gimp their damage. But oh, wait. Then they don't have utsusemi.

BTW, I'm surprised you don't count DRK as a godly job... atleast the DRK's I know do damn well in exp parties. DRK/SAM spamming guillotine is impressive... Hell, the DRK's I know quite often pull hate in Dynamis and end up dieing. While yes, I occasionally see WAR's pull hate too, but not as often as my DRK's.

BTW, don't prance around the bush like a little school girl. You didn't answer my question? What would you chose?

And I'm off to bed. I'll await your responce in the morning.

 

[Courtney]

And once again, you change the subject. 4-5 timesnow you've outright lied about what I've said so far in this thread, and not a single response when you're called out. Just more lies. Fortunately, you keep doing it here pubically where the whole community can see what you're like.

And the outlandish claim by courtney (which you implicitly refuted by coming in and arguing about the "end game player job profile") that the job distribution has nothing to do with the fact that courtney's LS does pull off the results it does

Does it or doesn't it make a difference on efficiency? How many wars and nins can you swap out for BST and lose utsusemi or berserk and provoke?

You keep talking about reading comprehension, and yet you seem to believe these two statements have the same meaning.

Does it affect efficiency? Yes.
Does it help our group clear the zone faster? Yes.
Is it the reason our 35-40 can clear Bastok in 2:35 and another group of 45 can't clear it at all? No

if you replaced your "mostly war, nin, mnk" with "mostly bsts, drgs, and drks"? If the answer is "yes" then I'm absolutely sorry for accusing you of elitism. It would be something totally different I'd have to deride you for.

By coincidence I also have a 75 BST. Will it outparse a WAR? No. It can do significant damage under the same conditions though, and that tells me that increasing the number of mellees slightly will compensate for the lack of damage.
Is having some BST (or DRG, or PUP, or SAM, or DRK) instead of WARs the most efficient way to go? No
Will it severly impact on your ability to clear a zone? also No

One of the well respected NA players on the server recently parsed a L65 exp party recently which coincidently had a BST in party. The WAR won, as expected, but the difference between WAR and BST wasn't that great. There's no gear listed, but if you want to attack the WARs gear or ability then good luck...

 

[metachronism]

more trying to save face

If you believe I'm lying, why don't you take the exact quotes and point out where I am? It's not that hard, is it?

It looks like you aren't able to assess the operational strength of 2 groups (whatever happened to the 30 spartan vs 34 "subotpimal?). Sure, let's go on to 35 vs 45. You won't look as bad when your claims are debunked if you give yourself a bigger buffer, right?

While a level 65 log isn't ideal, I suppose we can work off of that.

Let's see. what's that sub on the bst? Looks like war. So you have berserk but no utsusemi. With that in mind, let's look at the damage ratio war:bst. Without counting the pet, 1:0.62. That's right. 38% less than the war, and that's *including* the attacks the war lost from having to cast utsusemi1. Do you want to add the pet in? 1:0.87, Roughly 13% less. The gap widens tremendously at merit levels as the war gets utsusemi2 and gets shorter recast of berserk. And this is just in terms of damage.

By switching a war/nin with a bst/war, you've just lost a potential crowd control supporter, and increased your MP consumption with the damage the bst will take, at minimum, from just the AOEs. Is there still no impact on efficiency?

What about the fact, that past 74, the war can freely open on a mob with a WS, whereas the bst has to wait because he'll be an MP sponge if he does the same?

I won't bother to comment on the nin, as nins are pretty weak until the 70s. However, you can ask the same war how his nin parses against other jobs at 75.

Did you have a bard in that party? If so, what did it sing for the melees? It's hard to tell if I don't know the mob which was being fought.

So let's say you add a "few more melees". Who supports them? Do they stand out in the cold with no mages to support them? The mages have to scale superlinearly when you add the non-merit-favorite dd jobs. By "just adding a few melee", you are necessitating the increase of your mages by an even greater proportion, in effect, basically not altering the overall ratio of "merit jobs" and "non-merit jobs" by much.

So, let's await the answer to the bard question before we go on.

 

[decidence]

Since some clarification is needed:

- That was a Lv61-62 PT (not 65)
- Enemies were Puktrap and Defoliator
- Jobs not shown were BRD and SMN
- BRD sang Minuet and Madrigal

 

[metachronism]

First off, I find your claim that the party with no real healer "won't take any damage" Did you forget the existence of AOEs? What about mijin gakure?

Usually, the lack of insight in your posts are only bested by the likes of skaw, so I prefer not looking at them, as even the ones you are trying to side with know better than to concur with them.

No, but one could assume those godly NIN's and WAR's you're speaking of could keep hate, right?

There's always DRK's... they can't sub NIN either unless they want to gimp their damage. But oh, wait. Then they don't have utsusemi.

The point is they DON'T keep hate. That's why it's efficient. The hate is juggled around as people adjust and minimize damage and attack time loss by using only utsusemi2. Welcome to tp burn 101. As for keeping statues off mages, one provoke gives enough time for a barrage, and I don't know why'd you'd want anything more than that.

And yes, that's exactly why drks aren't the superstars of meriting.

BTW, I'm surprised you don't count DRK as a godly job... atleast the DRK's I know do damn well in exp parties. DRK/SAM spamming guillotine is impressive... Hell, the DRK's I know quite often pull hate in Dynamis and end up dieing. While yes, I occasionally see WAR's pull hate too, but not as often as my DRK's.

Because what makes drk strong is the defense ignoring damage from souleater. If you take that away, drk does't have much to add to the table besides stun. drk/sam spamming guillotine is the epitome of stupidity. Drks taking hate in dynamis is not something to be proud of. That means they are being stupid MP sponges. There is this thing called MP that happens to be finite. If you want damage, go take mnk/wars everywhere you go. Obviously, people don't do that because it ends up being counterproductive as they become MP sponges.

BTW, don't prance around the bush like a little school girl. You didn't answer my question? What would you chose?

Uh, war? And that's exactly the point, isn't it? Are you trying to argue for my case or what? Did you want courtney to say that he'd choose the bst because it's not noticeably inefficient?

Please remember that I *did* point out to you how misplaced that question was.

 

[Courtney]

If you believe I'm lying, why don't you take the exact quotes and point out where I am? It's not that hard, is it?

I've done that three times so far and you've never answered,

There's no point.

 

[Dayner]

i dont see why you guys keep bring this up , in exp party your limited by 6 party members and in dyna you got like 20+ melee hitting the same mob