Question to other Dynamis LS's

[metachronism]

Since some clarification is needed:

- That was a Lv61-62 PT (not 65)
- Enemies were Puktrap and Defoliator
- Jobs not shown were BRD and SMN
- BRD sang Minuet and Madrigal

Thank you. Statistics on damage taken by each person would be useful too, if you use a parser that keeps track of that. Then again, the real answer is a comparison at level 75.

So, what does this mean? At 75, the bard will not be singing madrigal, because the merits and equipment will allow the dd to hit the 95% cap without madrigal. What will it sing? Most likely minuet/march.

The ramification of that on the numbers:

march by itself will increase the attack speed by 13%, diminishing the contribution of the pet for the bst. There's also the difference brought about by how minuet scales, but we can even ignore that.

So, the very *minimum* damage difference you will see at 75 is 15.5%. Of course, I would contend that the actual gap you will see at 75 is well over 20% (you basically get ~5% more from just the suppanomimi). And this is bst, a job with a rather wide range of equipment choice.

Of course, as an aside, this is a good place to point out how much a bard adds to each dd. It adds a *minimum* of ~25%, as it could just use double march for +25% haste. Of course, the reason people do min/march instead is because it's better--hence the 30% figure cited earlier.

 

[metachronism]

I've done that three times so far and you've never answered,

There's no point.

Excuse me? All I've seen were self-incriminating quotations to which I did respond to most of.

I do appreciate the brevity that your retorts are starting to approach though. It's rather nice since you're starting to run out of ways to dilly dally around and try to obscure what you said/didn't say.

 

[Courtney]

Excuse me? All I've seen were self-incriminating quotations to which I did respond to most of.

I do appreciate the brevity that your retorts are starting to approach though. It's rather nice since you're starting to run out of ways to dilly dally around and try to obscure what you said/didn't say.

Just the ones I found in a quick skim that you've attibuted to me and I never said.

You have every right to say "dynamis city zones were designed to be cleared in 2.5 hours with 35 people"

You'd look more like the nonchalante cool-guy in the room that you're trying to be if you walked away *after* clearly attributing the said "efficiency" to the skewed job distribution

The reason I'm slapping around courtney is because he is speaking as if it is the norm for all people in dynamis shells to all have one of the merit jobs leveled or they are not even worthy of consideration

Then why is it that courtney assumes in every counterpost that the objective of every LS should be to clear the zone, because that's the "most efficient" and suggests it to be the obvious choice?

And the outlandish claim by courtney (which you implicitly refuted by coming in and arguing about the "end game player job profile") that the job distribution has nothing to do with the fact that courtney's LS does pull off the results it does

You're right though
I've had enough of your misinformation, your lies.
You've taken someone elses thread and spent 15 pages shitting on it for your own gratification, and I am ashamed that I've helped you do it.
I thought that there was some way of reasoning with you and I should have known better after about the first two pages. I've actually only made two points this entire thread and you're still to yet comment on them, so I'm guessing that you've missed them completely.

Keep blaming DRGs, BSTs and JP players for your failures.
I'm done.

 

[metachronism]

Something about being done... for the second time

Well, let's see here. Yes, indeed, I *have* been over most of these.

quote 1 (You have...): addressed in #169. Of course, the response to that was "I misread." Sure, that sounds like a good explanation... once. Would you like to use that as an explanation for the other quotes, such as the second one in #169? When it's done repeatedly, you can't help but assume that that is your attittude. And yes, you are indeed bad with the conditionals, leaving them out, even in quotes.

quote 2 (You'd...): Uh, yeah. Exactly, because that's neither a quote, nor a paraphrasing of what you said? Or is it just your writing style to put everything in question form, and use "~" in place of english words?

quote 3 (The reason..): looks like it's mentioned not only in #169, but repeatedly. Hey, did you know "as if" is not a quote or a paraphrase? It's about your attitude. And yes, that's been addressed long ago. Do people have to quote you saying "I'm arrogant" in order to call you on that?

quote 4 (Then...): #169 again. Why are you complaining so much when it's mostly all in one post?

quote 5(And... ): Errr. Well, I kind of wonder which way you want it, because you keep going both ways.

The Shell consists of Endgame players. Most endgame players have a job that's useful in killing mobs quickly, and, in general, they come as those jobs. Mellees are mostly NIN, MNK, WAR and mages are mostly BLM, WHM, RDM, BRD. 3-4 THFs for TH.

It isn't a conspiracy to keep other jobs out though, it's just logic. You come as your most useful job.

This looks to me like it's saying there is a preference for some jobs above others for "usefulness" reasons, and that the preference is manifested in the actual job distribution.

On the other hand, every time I asked you what would happen when the job distribution is changed, it was never answered. "Can your LS, with its experienced players, pull the same thing off with 3 of every job? -> no answer. "How do you assert your claim that 34 people of of 'suboptimal' (i.e. any) job can perform on par with a spartan group of 30, which exists (actually, there are many of them nowadays) and has many records of clearing cities in 2 hours?" -> "put in more melee" The infeasibility of which was outlined by me, but never refuted.

We were both "done" long ago. But if you have more points to discuss, I'm always up for continuing. Although, I can't really reduce the complexity much further than this. I mean, I used the numbers you supplied, and refuted your own claims. What more would you want me to do? This whole "did not/did too" thing of yours is rather imbecilic and puerile, don't you think?

 

[Uzor]

First off, I find your claim that the party with no real healer "won't take any damage" Did you forget the existence of AOEs? What about mijin gakure?

I didn't say they wouldn't take any damage. I said the damage they take the SMN can take care of. Learn to read.

The point is they DON'T keep hate. That's why it's efficient. The hate is juggled around as people adjust and minimize damage and attack time loss by using only utsusemi2. Welcome to tp burn 101. As for keeping statues off mages, one provoke gives enough time for a barrage, and I don't know why'd you'd want anything more than that.

You must have some bad NIN's then. When I played 68 NIN in Dynamis, I did Kurayami and Hojo in order to tank the stones. Hell, I tanked 3 at once, and then went on to tank random mobs too so they wouldn't attack mages when they woke up.

Because what makes drk strong is the defense ignoring damage from souleater. If you take that away, drk does't have much to add to the table besides stun. drk/sam spamming guillotine is the epitome of stupidity. Drks taking hate in dynamis is not something to be proud of. That means they are being stupid MP sponges. There is this thing called MP that happens to be finite. If you want damage, go take mnk/wars everywhere you go. Obviously, people don't do that because it ends up being counterproductive as they become MP sponges.

MNK/WAR is very viable. I prefer all of my melees subbing something besides NIN in order to increase the damage they do. An exception is Dynamis - Xarcabard or Dynamis - Buburimu where they can avoid Body Slam by subbing NIN. And BTW, tell me a single melee that don't steal hate. All I'm saying is that DRK is capable of doing more damage then a WAR, not that they pull hate from the tanks all the time.

And DRK can deal good damage without souleater, btw.

Uh, war? And that's exactly the point, isn't it? Are you trying to argue for my case or what? Did you want courtney to say that he'd choose the bst because it's not noticeably inefficient?

Please remember that I *did* point out to you how misplaced that question was.

In other words, you're a fucking elitist. Thanks for proving my point.

No, the point I'm trying to prove is that it doesn't matter what Courtney have in Dynamis, because offcourse he goes for efficiency. My point is also that what you argue for is stupid. None of us ever said any Dynamis LS could do it.

 

[Artem]

It's funny how people have answered his question about how non-optimal jobs are only slightly worse. (And even considering his extreme 30% more dmg claim, several people mention that it would only be like extra 4 melees.) If 30 experienced people can clear dynamis with a bunch of wars, by his logic (being that wars are 30% better than other melees) 34 people with drgs instead of wars will be able to clear that same zone in the same time. If they can't it's not the matter of jobs. It's the matter of skill. And like someone mentioned what's so elite about jobs? Anyone can level any job. It's not like WAR is only unlockable by 10 people on the server.

 

[Nyaano]

It's funny how people have answered his question about how non-optimal jobs are only slightly worse. (And even considering his extreme 30% more dmg claim, several people mention that it would only be like extra 4 melees.) If 30 experienced people can clear dynamis with a bunch of wars, by his logic (being that wars are 30% better than other melees) 34 people with drgs instead of wars will be able to clear that same zone in the same time. If they can't it's not the matter of jobs. It's the matter of skill. And like someone mentioned what's so elite about jobs? Anyone can level any job. It's not like WAR is only unlockable by 10 people on the server.

Damage output is but one factor. If you completely ignore all other issues (hate control, taking damage, etc.) then maybe you can calculate 34 people like that, but that is obviously an unrealistic scenario.

And that is also not taking into account the risk of not getting win if you prioritize killing as many mobs as possible leaving the boss for last. If you never have anyone new that needs a win, fine, do whatever you like, but if you have members that need the win, it's kinda stupid to take the risk just to get as many kills as possible.

 

[Bajaratt]

Damage output is but one factor. If you completely ignore all other issues (hate control, taking damage, etc.) then maybe you can calculate 34 people like that, but that is obviously an unrealistic scenario.

And that is also not taking into account the risk of not getting win if you prioritize killing as many mobs as possible leaving the boss for last. If you never have anyone new that needs a win, fine, do whatever you like, but if you have members that need the win, it's kinda stupid to take the risk just to get as many kills as possible.

Yes, you have to consider factors like hate control and taking damage, but you're also ignoring something. If you don't have any of the "melee cannon/top DD" jobs, then they won't be dealing as much damage, so they will pull hate less and will therefore take less damage. The only exception would be from AoE, which would still happen if they were subbing ninja. Hell, you could even have some drg's subbing whm to help heal people if need be.

They're also talking about clearing the zone, which means killing every monster there, including the boss. This was discussed at the beginning of this derail, that you have to kill the boss to get the rest of the mobs to spawn so that you can kill them all to clear the zone. There is no denying people the win if they need it when you clear.

 

[metachronism]

Yes, you have to consider factors like hate control and taking damage, but you're also ignoring something. If you don't have any of the "melee cannon/top DD" jobs, then they won't be dealing as much damage, so they will pull hate less and will therefore take less damage. The only exception would be from AoE, which would still happen if they were subbing ninja. Hell, you could even have some drg's subbing whm to help heal people if need be.

They're also talking about clearing the zone, which means killing every monster there, including the boss. This was discussed at the beginning of this derail, that you have to kill the boss to get the rest of the mobs to spawn so that you can kill them all to clear the zone. There is no denying people the win if they need it when you clear.

That's exactly why you get the tremendous damage disparity manifested in what you see in merit party damage logs. You do, however, give the non-merit favorites too little credit. Any job can take hate off the initial provoke or whatever of the tank. It's just that they can't do it without facing the consequences of getting pulverized, which, the utsusemi casters can, giving them a much higher ceiling.

It's exactly the presumption that the strategy should be centered around killing everything when you have less than half the zone capacity that I'm saying is ridiculous. That presumption can be made only when your roster consists of unrealistically skewed demographics.

And let me add, that when I say "unrealistic", I am talking about having an egalitarian roster which draws from the whole server player pool, instead of predominantly people who "most have 16 jobs leveled" or whatever ridiculous claim was made.

As I said, people are free to do things how they want. If they have the resources to go in with 30 people and wipe the zone out in 2 hours (which some do), that's great. But don't talk like that is what everyone should be doing because you think "most people" can do that. Are you going to diss Uzor's LS because his LS doesn't consistently clear out the zones? Are you going to imply that it's because of his players who aren't "experienced" enough that they don't? That's what courtney's statements imply, and I am criticizing that attitude as arrogant and elitist.

Anyone who is capable of logistical analysis would know what makes the difference: job distribution. Saying otherwise is an insult to the players of non-"broken" jobs who took them up because they enjoy them.

 

[Uzor]

It's exactly the presumption that the strategy should be centered around killing everything when you have less than half the zone capacity that I'm saying is ridiculous. That presumption can be made only when your roster consists of unrealistically skewed demographics.

That's false. You should always strife towards clearing the zone. If you only stive towards killing the boss, that's all you'll ever do. If you never put your LS's goals to be someting beyond what they can handle, you won't ever get better. Your goal should always be to clear the zone, otherwise all you'll pull off is a half-assed attempt. When the goal is to just kill the boss and get the win, people will slack off when that is done. If your goal is to clear the zone, people won't slack off untill your goal is completed. It's not stupid or ridiculous to have that as a goal. It's smart.

And let me add, that when I say "unrealistic", I am talking about having an egalitarian roster which draws from the whole server player pool, instead of predominantly people who "most have 16 jobs leveled" or whatever ridiculous claim was made.

It's not unrealistic. Every LS recruit all melee jobs. Tell me a single LS that only recruits WAR's and MNK's as melee DD. You can't, can you? And that's what your basing your arguments on.

As I said, people are free to do things how they want. If they have the resources to go in with 30 people and wipe the zone out in 2 hours (which some do), that's great. But don't talk like that is what everyone should be doing because you think "most people" can do that. Are you going to diss Uzor's LS because his LS doesn't consistently clear out the zones? Are you going to imply that it's because of his players who aren't "experienced" enough that they don't? That's what courtney's statements imply, and I am criticizing that attitude as arrogant and elitist.

No one is talking abous dissign another LS. You're the one that said it was impossible to do, and all Courtney said was that she knows a LS that can do it, and thus, it's not impossible.

And my members aren't "inexperienced", as you seem to claim. We've been around a year. They're all very experienced and skillfull players. Courtney's statement doesn't imply that my LS isn't inexperienced. She's implying her Ls is more experienced. Which I can agree with. My Ls have only been around for roughly a year, after all. But we've already come a long way. We were also limited to 25 people.

Anyone who is capable of logistical analysis would know what makes the difference: job distribution. Saying otherwise is an insult to the players of non-"broken" jobs who took them up because they enjoy them.

How is saying that other jobs besides WAR's and MNK's can clear the zone, an insult to those jobs? Now you're just desperatly grasping at straws to try to prove a point you never had.

 

[metachronism]

I didn't say they wouldn't take any damage. I said the damage they take the SMN can take care of. Learn to read.

Are you implying that you mentioned somewhere that your smns are capable of keeping up with all the aoe damage without any significant downtime? I wonder how you'd get by when you deal with groups of ninja mobs. Do you just pray that they don't use mijin at high HP? Great logistics.

You must have some bad NIN's then. When I played 68 NIN in Dynamis, I did Kurayami and Hojo in order to tank the stones. Hell, I tanked 3 at once, and then went on to tank random mobs too so they wouldn't attack mages when they woke up.

Yes, and you must be doing a lot of damage while you're doing that. If you allocate someone to full-time crowd control, you are sacrificing a dd slot. While that is certainly a viable and accepted strategy, it's not what you do when your objective is to clear the zone in small numbers. I'm curious as to what your blms are doing such that you need to keep spamming ninjutsu for such a long duration.

MNK/WAR is very viable. I prefer all of my melees subbing something besides NIN in order to increase the damage they do. An exception is Dynamis - Xarcabard or Dynamis - Buburimu where they can avoid Body Slam by subbing NIN. And BTW, tell me a single melee that don't steal hate. All I'm saying is that DRK is capable of doing more damage then a WAR, not that they pull hate from the tanks all the time.


And DRK can deal good damage without souleater, btw.

I didn't say mnk/war shouldn't be used. The problem with mnk/war is that you can't use the /war to the fullest due to the fact that it becomes overkill. How useful is it to "be able to do damage, but have to refrain from it due to the consequences"? The answer to that question is your archetypical efficiency-minded merit parties. A drg can deal "good" damage too. What's your point?

In other words, you're a fucking elitist. Thanks for proving my point.


No, the point I'm trying to prove is that it doesn't matter what Courtney have in Dynamis, because offcourse he goes for efficiency. My point is also that what you argue for is stupid. None of us ever said any Dynamis LS could do it.

In other words, you don't know what you're even trying to argue. The fundamental assumption *is* that some jobs have a grossly disproportionate advantage over other jobs. *I* am the one saying that, and *you* et al, are the ones trying to paint a rosy picture and say that's not the case.

Of course people would choose war over bst or drg *if they had the choice*--in other words, if everyone had war leveled (or, if you just say "oh, you're a drg, we don't want you" when you recruit). Do all the dd in your LS come as war or nin? I seem to recall you saying "no". Why don't they? Because they don't all have war/nin 75.

You are basically debunking courtney/artem's claim that "most people have the merit jobs leveled" by your own hands. So, what exactly are you trying to argue here?

Addendum since uzor's last post wasn't worthy of a whole separate post:

No one made claims about impossibility. Go back and read.

 

[Uzor]

Are you implying that you mentioned somewhere that your smns are capable of keeping up with all the aoe damage without any significant downtime? I wonder how you'd get by when you deal with groups of ninja mobs. Do you just pray that they don't use mijin at high HP? Great logistics.

Yes. I'm implying just that. And normally on NIN mobs, they suicide at very low HP, thus not being very damaging, or they don't suicide at all. When they do suicide at high HP and people die, even parties that have WHMes have casualties. Those times are mostly bad luck and not the SMN's fault. When you kill a mob in a matter of seconds, and have people stunning them, the chance they'll even use mijin gakure is small. But I'm guessing you didn't know that, just like you don't seem to know anything about Dynamis.

So yes, that's what I'm implying.

Yes, and you must be doing a lot of damage while you're doing that. If you allocate someone to full-time crowd control, you are sacrificing a dd slot. While that is certainly a viable and accepted strategy, it's not what you do when your objective is to clear the zone in small numbers. I'm curious as to what your blms are doing such that you need to keep spamming ninjutsu for such a long duration.

I was 68 NIN. I wouldn't have dealt a high ammount of damage either way.

And my BLMes were doing just fine sniping stones. When and where did I imply I was spamming it? I provoked one, casted hojo on another, and kurayami on yet another one. Then I ran around untill the BLMes killed them. I never once implied "spamming" them.

I didn't say mnk/war shouldn't be used. The problem with mnk/war is that you can't use the /war to the fullest due to the fact that it becomes overkill. How useful is it to "be able to do damage, but have to refrain from it due to the consequences"? The answer to that question is your archetypical efficiency-minded merit parties. A drg can deal "good" damage too. What's your point?

MNK/WAR can be used to the fullest in Dynamis. I don't know what Dynamis LS you're in, but it can't be a very good one if your PLD's lose hate and can't take it back when a melee use WAR sub to it's fullest. I also can't imagine your LS being very good if it takes so long time to kill a mob that a melee becomes an MP sponge just because they WS with Berserk and Warcry up.

In other words, you don't know what you're even trying to argue. The fundamental assumption *is* that some jobs have a grossly disproportionate advantage over other jobs. *I* am the one saying that, and *you* et al, are the ones trying to paint a rosy picture and say that's not the case.

Do say where we didn't agree that some jobs are stronger then other jobs. Also, do show where we said that any combination of other jobs can't do it (as in, saying that you don't need WAR's and MNK's to beat Dynamis).

You still don't know what you're arguing for. You're all over the place. First you preach efficiency, then you're sayign efficiency shouldn't be done because it's unfair to other jobs. Then you once again change stance and say that we're arguing WAR's and MNK's are a must (even though we didn't). And now you're saying that we're trying to prove otherwise.

Did I include all of them?

Of course people would choose war over bst or drg *if they had the choice*--in other words, if everyone had war leveled (or, if you just say "oh, you're a drg, we don't want you" when you recruit). Do all the dd in your LS come as war or nin? I seem to recall you saying "no". Why don't they? Because they don't all have war/nin 75.

You are basically debunking courtney/artem's claim that "most people have the merit jobs leveled" by your own hands. So, what exactly are you trying to argue here?

You obviously missread my post. If you'd actually have read it instead of pushing the "reply" button after the first word, you'd have said that I mentioned me prefering people having fun in Dynamis. Thus giving them the option of chosing whih job they want to come as, as long as it doesn't endanger the LS (an example being the only WHM wants to come as RNG).

BTW, what Dynamis LS are you in? I'm assuming you're not in any Dynamis LS due to your lack of knowledge about Dynamis.

 

[Uzor]

Let's make a quick recompilation of your posts.

Clearing the zone is not what's difficult. What's difficult is maximizing the farming while still ensuring that other needs are met (i.e. getting wins for new people, getting attestations etc). The statistics deci quoted is for a "for the win" run in which the LS killed the boss with well over an hour left on the hourglass. Gone are the days in which you can book a zone at whim (especially on the contentious days), and it's imperative that you take things on the safe side if you have scheduled agendas to meet.

In all honesty, you can clear the cities with 30 people in under 2 hours if your melee jobs are overwhelmingly nin or war/nin and have bards. However, if you have an egalitarian LS which doesn't discriminate against people without the "optimal jobs" (which, I hope is true for most LSs out there), clearing in under 2 hours with such numbers, especially with an ensured win, is pretty difficult.

By the way, what is this about plds being scared of mnks? They could straight up tank mnks long before the sentinel update, and if it looked bad, they always had the option of kiting.

Here you're saying clearing the zone isn't hard. Later on, you say it's easy to do in under 2 hours, with the majority being WAR's and MNK's, and other godly jobs.

What made you think I was thinking otherwise...? Of course I'm talking about killing every mob in the zone. I'm saying if that was the primary objective, it's not that hard to pull off.

If all you cared about was city farming, the no-brainer is to kill the boss when your hourlgass is about to expire, and to use it only as a 30 min extension (other than sandy). However, as I mentioned before, LSs usually have other agendas to meet.

I don't know about your LS, but if the LS actually cares about the well-being of the members, it would not risk failing to obtain the win for that zone and potentially locking some new members out of northland runs by whatever accident which might occur. Hence, if you put wins at a higher priority than farming, you naturally would not delay the boss like that.

I hope I don't have to point out that the post-boss mobs are stronger. It should be obvious that the balance to strike is between the certainty of the win, and the ratio of the pre-boss mobs to the post-boss mobs. Most LS with a rolling roster would choose to take the guaranteed win and take the hit on the farming efficiency.

If you are under no pressure to meet win schedules and you have confidence that nothing will go wrong, yes, what you say sounds great. Unfortunately, I don't think most LSs can make the assumption that "nothing will go wrong."

Now, if you are mopping up the zones when you leave a big chunk of post-boss mobs, then I gather you're one of the merit job-heavy LSs which I mentioned earlier.

Here you're assuming that if you can manage to do just that, you must be a merit-prefered-job-heavy LS.

Why don't you try timing how long it takes to kill a pre-boss and a post-boss mob? If it appears the same to you, your group is either godly beyond anything I can imagine, or you are sorely in lack of the ability to observe <.< I would also add that you seemed to have missed the whole point about the priorities and not taking risks. Should you attempt the boss at 10 minutes to go and you somehow wipe, you can't recover from that and get the win.

~30 men LSs, if they meet the preconditions I mentioned, can clear a city zone in 2 hours, yes.

Here you say that if the conditions you set are met, you can do it in 2 hours.

So tell me, if you replaced all WAR and MNK's with DRG's, DRK's etc, could they not clear the zone in 3 hour 30 min if WAR's and MNK's can do it in under 2 hours? Wouldn't the chances of them clearing the zone in 3 hours 30 min increase if you added another 4 melees then?

Or were you just making things up as you go along, pretending you actually know shit?

 

[metachronism]

Yes. I'm implying just that. And normally on NIN mobs, they suicide at very low HP, thus not being very damaging, or they don't suicide at all. When they do suicide at high HP and people die, even parties that have WHMes have casualties. Those times are mostly bad luck and not the SMN's fault. When you kill a mob in a matter of seconds, and have people stunning them, the chance they'll even use mijin gakure is small. But I'm guessing you didn't know that, just like you don't seem to know anything about Dynamis.

So yes, that's what I'm implying.

Anyone who plans according to the best-case scenario is a moron. Have you taken big mijins or not? If you do, your first claim about smn being able to keep up is obviously not true. If you are willing to accept huge casualties, you are obviously not trying to clear the zone with 36 people either.

I was 68 NIN. I wouldn't have dealt a high ammount of damage either way.

And my BLMes were doing just fine sniping stones. When and where did I imply I was spamming it? I provoked one, casted hojo on another, and kurayami on yet another one. Then I ran around untill the BLMes killed them. I never once implied "spamming" them.

Just because you happened to be low level doesn't mean that should be the assumption for the general case. Using one each of hojo, kurayami, provoke accomplishes *nothing* as the statues would've just kept following the puller without your help. The point of enmity actions against statues is to keep them off the mages when the first barrage of spells happens to not kill it off--in which case just doing one of those on a statue isn't enough. I guess I gave you too much credit. There are some skilled ninjas who can time things such that they can keep multiple stones off blms at once, and I assumed that's what you were doing.

MNK/WAR can be used to the fullest in Dynamis. I don't know what Dynamis LS you're in, but it can't be a very good one if your PLD's lose hate and can't take it back when a melee use WAR sub to it's fullest. I also can't imagine your LS being very good if it takes so long time to kill a mob that a melee becomes an MP sponge just because they WS with Berserk and Warcry up.

Oh really? You mean it can use a beserked asuran fist at 95% and the mob is gonna stay on the pld? Great.

Do say where we didn't agree that some jobs are stronger then other jobs. Also, do show where we said that any combination of other jobs can't do it (as in, saying that you don't need WAR's and MNK's to beat Dynamis).

Quite frankly, I don't know what the hell you want to say, or if you have anything to say at all. I do know that courtney had been arguing that the difference between jobs were next to minimal, and you seemed to want to be a staunch supporter of everything he has said.

You still don't know what you're arguing for. You're all over the place. First you preach efficiency, then you're sayign efficiency shouldn't be done because it's unfair to other jobs. Then you once again change stance and say that we're arguing WAR's and MNK's are a must (even though we didn't). And now you're saying that we're trying to prove otherwise.

Did I include all of them?

That's because you fail to parse conditionals, just like 1/2 of the people who are posting here. I've been breaking each thing down to the most minimal units I can imagine, and the non-idiots are probably following what's being said. They probably just don't want to waste their breath making posts here.

You obviously missread my post. If you'd actually have read it instead of pushing the "reply" button after the first word, you'd have said that I mentioned me prefering people having fun in Dynamis. Thus giving them the option of chosing whih job they want to come as, as long as it doesn't endanger the LS (an example being the only WHM wants to come as RNG).

BTW, what Dynamis LS are you in? I'm assuming you're not in any Dynamis LS due to your lack of knowledge about Dynamis.

Are you saying your LS is full of people who have nin/war/mnk/brd/whm/rdm leveled to 75, but they all choose not to use those jobs for the sake of "fun" because they just enjoy spending ~3 hours in dynamis and have no interest in improving the drops? Well, I wouldn't say there aren't people like that, but that's an interesting band of poeple you have there.

 

[Nyaano]

Yes. I'm implying just that. And normally on NIN mobs, they suicide at very low HP, thus not being very damaging, or they don't suicide at all. When they do suicide at high HP and people die, even parties that have WHMes have casualties. Those times are mostly bad luck and not the SMN's fault. When you kill a mob in a matter of seconds, and have people stunning them, the chance they'll even use mijin gakure is small. But I'm guessing you didn't know that, just like you don't seem to know anything about Dynamis.

So yes, that's what I'm implying.

If NIN mobs "normally" Mijin-ed at low HP, I'd have a much easier time...
WHM Barfira (with Blessed body, Cleric leg/feet) does help survivability against high hp Mijin. Sometimes that still causes a lot of damage and big cure/curaga may be needed.

I'm not putting any fault on the SMN here, as it obviously doesn't have the same capabilities as the WHM. Just pointing out that in my experience, high hp Mijin is the norm and not the exception.

 

[metachronism]

display of confusion

Yes, I said that certain dynamis zones can be cleared by a group of 30 with a very spartan configuration in 2 hours. I'm glad you got that.

Yes, I also said that if you are clearing the zone, within a certain margin of time as the spartan config, that it must be similar in job configuration, purely by logistics. Guess what, go look at courtney's post. He says his LS is exactly that "with a few others mixed in". That's why his LS had more people, and cleared the zone in a significantly longer time.

And as for the question of if you can clear the zones replacing the merit favorites (that is NOT limited to just melee), with the other jobs, with 34 people, the answer is, no, you cannot. Anyone who understands the game mechanics in their current state would see that. That is why I even put out the "34 with 1 of every pre-aht urghan job minimum worksheet" for the people who can't do it in their heads to try. Notice what you came up with was 36. Try shaving off 2 people off that roster, and still meet the "1 of every job minimum" requirement.

If you can demonstrate to me clearing sandoria with a such a group, you have my word I will never post in another non-scheduling thread on this forum again. I do hope, however, that you would not take your whole LS on such a fruitless endeavor.

 

[Uzor]

Anyone who plans according to the best-case scenario is a moron. Have you taken big mijins or not? If you do, your first claim about smn being able to keep up is obviously not true. If you are willing to accept huge casualties, you are obviously not trying to clear the zone with 36 people either.

Yes. We've taken big HP Mijin Gakures, but mainly from the Xarcabard NM. All LS's take one occasionally due to bad luck. I'm not willing to accept large casualties, which is why I think the SMN is better off in the lone melee party then in the BLM party.

Do you read and think, or do you hire an army of monkeys to type out some random words?

Just because you happened to be low level doesn't mean that should be the assumption for the general case. Using one each of hojo, kurayami, provoke accomplishes *nothing* as the statues would've just kept following the puller without your help. The point of enmity actions against statues is to keep them off the mages when the first barrage of spells happens to not kill it off--in which case just doing one of those on a statue isn't enough. I guess I gave you too much credit. There are some skilled ninjas who can time things such that they can keep multiple stones off blms at once, and I assumed that's what you were doing.

Because our puller have TH4, and I'd much rather him fighting the mobs and give us TH4 then kite NM's.

Oh really? You mean it can use a beserked asuran fist at 95% and the mob is gonna stay on the pld? Great.

Yes. And if it doesn't, the mob will die within seconds anyway.

Quite frankly, I don't know what the hell you want to say, or if you have anything to say at all. I do know that courtney had been arguing that the difference between jobs were next to minimal, and you seemed to want to be a staunch supporter of everything he has said.

Yes, courtney were arguing that the difference between jobs were minimal. What part of:

Do say where we didn't agree that some jobs are stronger then other jobs. Also, do show where we said that any combination of other jobs can't do it (as in, saying that you don't need WAR's and MNK's to beat Dynamis).

blue: Some jobs are stronger
red: but the difference is small, and any combination of other jobs could get the job done.

leads you to believe I argued the difference is huge, or that it's impossible to do with an army of MNK's and WAR's.

]quote]
That's because you fail to parse conditionals, just like 1/2 of the people who are posting here. I've been breaking each thing down to the most minimal units I can imagine, and the non-idiots are probably following what's being said. They probably just don't want to waste their breath making posts here.
[/quote]
I've taken conditionals in to consideration all along.

As for the other part, either that, or they think you're just too moronic to bother arguing with.

Are you saying your LS is full of people who have nin/war/mnk/brd/whm/rdm leveled to 75, but they all choose not to use those jobs for the sake of "fun" because they just enjoy spending ~3 hours in dynamis and have no interest in improving the drops? Well, I wouldn't say there aren't people like that, but that's an interesting band of poeple you have there.

All people with WAR have either NIN or BRD lvled in my LS. So yes, courtney's right about people leveling multiple jobs.

But yes, people can come what they want as. I consider all melee jobs (except for NIN) as equal in Dynamis. The only exception to this is DL, where I prefer DRK, SAM, MNK and WAR.

Yes, I said that certain dynamis zones can be cleared by a group of 30 with a very spartan configuration in 2 hours. I'm glad you got that.

Yes, I also said that if you are clearing the zone, within a certain margin of time as the spartan config, that it must be similar in job configuration, purely by logistics. Guess what, go look at courtney's post. He says his LS is exactly that "with a few others mixed in". That's why his LS had more people, and cleared the zone in a significantly longer time.

And as for the question of if you can clear the zones replacing the merit favorites (that is NOT limited to just melee), with the other jobs, with 34 people, the answer is, no, you cannot. Anyone who understands the game mechanics in their current state would see that. That is why I even put out the "34 with 1 of every pre-aht urghan job minimum worksheet" for the people who can't do it in their heads to try. Notice what you came up with was 36. Try shaving off 2 people off that roster, and still meet the "1 of every job minimum" requirement.

If you can demonstrate to me clearing sandoria with a such a group, you have my word I will never post in another non-scheduling thread on this forum again. I do hope, however, that you would not take your whole LS on such a fruitless endeavor.

With a few others mixed in, and he beat it with 55 min left on the clock, meaning roughly 1 more hour to farm. I'm sure replacing those WAR's and MNK's could push it down to clearing the zone with 1 min remaining. Hell, my shell of 25 without almost any WAR's and MNK's almost cleared the zone.

And putting the requirement "With only 1 of every pre-aht urghan job" restriction is retarded. That's 15 jobs, what are the other 19 supposed to be? PUP BLU and COR?

Your arguments makes no sense. Which is why you keep proving what a moron you are.

If NIN mobs "normally" Mijin-ed at low HP, I'd have a much easier time...
WHM Barfira (with Blessed body, Cleric leg/feet) does help survivability against high hp Mijin. Sometimes that still causes a lot of damage and big cure/curaga may be needed.

I'm not putting any fault on the SMN here, as it obviously doesn't have the same capabilities as the WHM. Just pointing out that in my experience, high hp Mijin is the norm and not the exception.

You must do it wrong. If done right, NIN mobs shouldn't even mijin gakure at all.

 

[Uzor]

BTW, you still avoid the question of what Dynamis LS you are in. I'm guessing none.

 

[Nyaano]

Yes. We've taken big HP Mijin Gakures, but mainly from the Xarcabard NM. All LS's take one occasionally due to bad luck. I'm not willing to accept large casualties, which is why I think the SMN is better off in the lone melee party then in the BLM party.

---

You must do it wrong. If done right, NIN mobs shouldn't even mijin gakure at all.

So all stunners should concentrate on keeping all NIN's stunned at all times, when they're not slept or not sleepable?

Would take quite a few stunners with recast and all... And I'm sure they're not better used elsewhere... Especially if it's in Xarcabard.

Granted, I've only done Dynamis for a little more than half a year, so I guess I'm not experienced enough to comment yet... Even worse, my only 75 job is WHM.

 

[metachronism]

Yes. We've taken big HP Mijin Gakures, but mainly from the Xarcabard NM. All LS's take one occasionally due to bad luck. I'm not willing to accept large casualties, which is why I think the SMN is better off in the lone melee party then in the BLM party.

Do you read and think, or do you hire an army of monkeys to type out some random words?

So you have taken significant mijins. So your claim that "it never happens" is rather preposterous, isn't it? You're willing to put your main dd group in that high risk? You basically have to stop and wait for recovery if the mijin (and possibly subsequent AOEs) take out that dd party. Again, basic logistics.

Because our puller have TH4, and I'd much rather him fighting the mobs and give us TH4 then kite NM's.

Then you're basically saying you are a moron for not having the ninja (you) pull in the first place.

Yes. And if it doesn't, the mob will die within seconds anyway.

Only with stacking abilities *might* a paladin be able to keep the mob on himself in such an occasion, and if that is done, he has just jeopardized the ability timer for the next mob, slowing things down in the end. Once more, basic logistics. How many seconds is "seconds"? People firing WS at that kind of a timing will trigger the mob 2hr for sure. In which case, that mnk is likely to eat whatever flavor the mob has--and guess which will go down first when the mob has the 2hr going, the berserked mnk, or the mob?

inability to use quotes properly

So what you're saying is that you didn't comprehend the damage comparison provided by courtney himself, and that you also fail at understanding the game mechanics. What else is new?

As for the other part, either that, or they think you're just too moronic to bother arguing with.

I'm honored to see you consider me worthwhile to bless me with your cluelessness.

All people with WAR have either NIN or BRD lvled in my LS. So yes, courtney's right about people leveling multiple jobs.

But yes, people can come what they want as. I consider all melee jobs (except for NIN) as equal in Dynamis. The only exception to this is DL, where I prefer DRK, SAM, MNK and WAR.

So, as I asked before, they come as drg and smn because they value "fun" above their opportunity to get their drops?

With a few others mixed in, and he beat it with 55 min left on the clock, meaning roughly 1 more hour to farm. I'm sure replacing those WAR's and MNK's could push it down to clearing the zone with 1 min remaining. Hell, my shell of 25 without almost any WAR's and MNK's almost cleared the zone.

"Almost", missing which pulls was it? And this is bastok, right? The city with almost no aoes?

And putting the requirement "With only 1 of every pre-aht urghan job" restriction is retarded. That's 15 jobs, what are the other 19 supposed to be? PUP BLU and COR?

Your arguments makes no sense. Which is why you keep proving what a moron you are.

I'm not just being confrontational when I question the people's ability to read. I mean it. What about "one of every pre-aht urghan job minimum" do you fail to parse? Would you care to explain to me how that translates to having the rest of the group aht urghan jobs? If you still need explanation, it means you can have more than 1 of each job, as long as you have at least 1 of every job.

You must do it wrong. If done right, NIN mobs shouldn't even mijin gakure at all.

So you must be "doing it wrong" too when you take them on occasion?