RA time vs Melee time

[Numa]

Hey, need some numbers

I think Haste doesnt affect RA speed (or so all rng have told me on my RDM), so it seems to Me RA and melee run on different timers.

On nin Ive spammed RA (throwing) to see if I stop or slow my melee swings per minute, and I still seem to swing as often as when Im not using RA. (ill even swing as Im throwing)

So heres my question: Is RA godly? IE - can you spam RA (even tho it may be low dmg) as a way to build TP without slowing your melee attack speed?

Cuz free TP boosts are great, but if Im slowing my melee attacks which do more dmg, then it might not be worth it.

Anyone have a link w solid proof? No "I think it slows you but never tried it" or "looks slower" opinions plz.

 

[Bigboy]

I heard RA is actually affected by haste, but RNG know that they will just teeter on the edge of grabbing hate by spamming their RA at normal speed, and so for simplicites sake, they don't want haste because if they start jamming that macro they have the ability to shoot too often and thus they don't want/need it. Their delay is their regulator in some circumstances.

 

[Nasya]

you will miss some swings, depending on if you pay attention to timing or not... and your accuracy is bad for most ranged weapons if you are in range to strike with melee attack. I have no link to show you but know this from experiance. Previously spamming /ra on nin for TP and damage (shuraken have very decent damage for their delay ) worked very well, but post "ranger" nerf it isn't the case so much.

 

[Numa]

Yeah, Im not worried about dmg, shuriken are nice but pricey. Im just spamming my Aerobie (ring disk? forget name) for the extra 8-9 tp per hit I get, which allows Me to Blade: Jin More often for some good dmg.

Looks like I may need to pull out the stopwatch and count swings per minute, both with and without RA.

 

[Mishaela]

On wether it's worth it or not...it depends on the damage it does. I'd REALLY suggest not using a weak-but-fast, because you hafto remember that while it gets you fast TP, it gets the enemy fast TP too.

 

[Marajade]

from what i've seen, hase does not affect my ranged speed at all. It could decrease the interval between when a shot is fired and when i can shoot again, but thats so small a time span its not worth the MP.

Basicly, dont waste MP hasting a RNG. We dont need it.

 

[Reality]

haste doesn't affect ranged attack speed

however, slow doesn't affect ranged attack speed either

 

[Tagrineth]

you will miss some swings, depending on if you pay attention to timing or not... and your accuracy is bad for most ranged weapons if you are in range to strike with melee attack. I have no link to show you but know this from experiance. Previously spamming /ra on nin for TP and damage (shuraken have very decent damage for their delay ) worked very well, but post "ranger" nerf it isn't the case so much.

Throwing sweetspot is point blank, so the ranged attack nerf did not affect shurikens.

much.

 

[Numa]

Awesome news! So RA throwing as a nin is a great TP / Hate builder. Its like getting and extra attack every katana swing cycle.

Chakram are @ 80% the dmg of the best katanas out there, and 100% the typical katana build. Im willing to give the enemy TP for that extra hate /dmg as a tank.

I was keeping up w the Sam my last PT w TP using this trick. Say what you want about BLM, but NIN are the uber job here.

Now to finish capping throwing ^^;

 

[Mistra]

Awesome news! So RA throwing as a nin is a great TP / Hate builder. Its like getting and extra attack every katana swing cycle.

Chakram are @ 80% the dmg of the best katanas out there, and 100% the typical katana build. Im willing to give the enemy TP for that extra hate /dmg as a tank.

I was keeping up w the Sam my last PT w TP using this trick. Say what you want about BLM, but NIN are the uber job here.

Now to finish capping throwing ^^;

Good luck, capping throwing is a long long road. It took me quite a while to get throwing to 269 on my Ninja.

Also, the Ranged Attack nerf did not affect throwing much at all, considering the optimum range for it is point blank. I have also found that throwing damage increases the closer you are to the mob, making it completely opposite from other ranged weapons.

 

[neophytal]

Awesome news! So RA throwing as a nin is a great TP / Hate builder. Its like getting and extra attack every katana swing cycle.

Chakram are @ 80% the dmg of the best katanas out there, and 100% the typical katana build. Im willing to give the enemy TP for that extra hate /dmg as a tank.

if you so much as even miss 1 swing, you drop damage.... lol

I was keeping up w the Sam my last PT w TP using this trick. Say what you want about BLM, but NIN are the uber job here.

Now to finish capping throwing ^^;

BLM and NIN are totally different.

 

[Lavi]

you will miss some swings, depending on if you pay attention to timing or not... and your accuracy is bad for most ranged weapons if you are in range to strike with melee attack. I have no link to show you but know this from experiance. Previously spamming /ra on nin for TP and damage (shuraken have very decent damage for their delay ) worked very well, but post "ranger" nerf it isn't the case so much.

Actually, they are a lot more than decent damage. Juji Shurikens, level 28 DMG 41 Delay 192. The main reason most do not use them is simply because they are so very expensive especially for the level. It's probably about 20k a stack minimum to craft and mobs can only drop/steal one at a time. My friend used to use this as his hate tool in the promyvians. He said the damage was superior to the katanas and he hit like a ranger.

Neo, I am not so sure if you miss a swing, you will lose damage either. I am not exactly sure how ranged attacks work specifically, but considering this (referring to Juji, didn't check higher level shurikens) has higher base damage than any katana even at level 75 and a far lower delay as well, I'd only guess the damage would be better especially for the level of the shuriken. Also, NIN have A- katana as well as throwing, so I don't think accuracy/attack is a huge issue as far as the weapons are concerned (If you have throwing leveled, most 75 NIN probably do not).

Edit in: If I remember correctly, isn't NIN supposed to be a combination of RNG and RDM? RDM for their enfeebles and RNG for the throwing ranged attacks.

 

[Stouter]

Ranged weapon delay is differnt than melee weapon delay, but TP is figured the same. For melee weapons 60 delay is 1 second, for ranged weapons 100 delay is 1 second. So for a 300 delay melee weapon it would take 5 seconds between swings, but only take 3 seconds to fire off a 300 delay ranged weapon+ammo, and you would get the same TP. Haste doesn't speed up ranged attacks, so with haste and a haste build this starts to balance out.

For end game ninja with a speed build, using a boomerang disk thing you'll lose a full round of attacks each time you throw. You'll do less damage, with less accuracy, for less TP.

edit - forgot to address one of your points, tranged attacks are on a sort of sub-timer. Your melee timer stops when you start a ranged attack, then a short time before you can fire another ranged attack your melee timer restarts. Spamming ranged attacks alone is enough to keep up with moderate TP building jobs, toss in the melee swings in between and you've got a rng keeping up with a sam. Long story short though, ranged attack spamming does slow your melee swings.

 

[CmdrFly]

They are on separate timers, guaranteed. Using any ranged weapon will pause your melee timer until after you put the ranged weapon (or your hand in the case of shuriken) away. Then your melee timer resumes.

You might not notice it much as a nin since you already swing so fast, but try it with a 2-handed high-delay weapon and you'll see.

 

[neophytal]

For end game ninja with a speed build, using a boomerang disk thing you'll lose a full round of attacks each time you throw. You'll do less damage, with less accuracy, for less TP.

basically what i was getting at. thanks.

 

[Lavi]

Ranged weapon delay is differnt than melee weapon delay, but TP is figured the same. For melee weapons 60 delay is 1 second, for ranged weapons 100 delay is 1 second. So for a 300 delay melee weapon it would take 5 seconds between swings, but only take 3 seconds to fire off a 300 delay ranged weapon+ammo, and you would get the same TP. Haste doesn't speed up ranged attacks, so with haste and a haste build this starts to balance out.

For end game ninja with a speed build, using a boomerang disk thing you'll lose a full round of attacks each time you throw. You'll do less damage, with less accuracy, for less TP.

edit - forgot to address one of your points, tranged attacks are on a sort of sub-timer. Your melee timer stops when you start a ranged attack, then a short time before you can fire another ranged attack your melee timer restarts. Spamming ranged attacks alone is enough to keep up with moderate TP building jobs, toss in the melee swings in between and you've got a rng keeping up with a sam. Long story short though, ranged attack spamming does slow your melee swings.

Little confused. Isn't ranged weapons still superior for DoT? The example I gave for a Juji Shuriken has 41 base damage whereas not even a single Katana excluding relic has a base damage that high and it's only level 28. The delay is only 192 which is below most Katanas with delays around 227 (go as low as 150 and as high as 232, with a majority at 227). Even your own statement says the delay is 100 delay equals 1 sec versus the delay of a melee weapon is 60 per second, so a shuriken will be fired off far more often at that rate. Also, why would an end game NIN have less accuracy? I understand the boomerange have far lower base damage, but a NIN's throwing skill is the same as the katana, given most people use sushi for +acc/r.acc and ranged accuracy rings are cheaper and give a lot more acc, wouldn't they have superior ranged accuracy?

OK so lets do a little math. I'll compare two weapons, one Juji Shuriken and two Katanas with exact same delay and Dual Wield III(level 50, -25% delay) and IV(level 65, -30% delay).

Juji Shuriken: 1.92 seconds per hit
Katana: 3.2 seconds per hit
2 Katanas + DWIII: 4.8 seconds per swing
2 Katanas + DWIV: 4.48 seconds per swing

So both weapons get the same TP for same delay and I can throw two shurikens in the less time than the 2 katanas will take to land 1 swing with DWIV excluding any haste. So why is melee superior when the ranged weapon has such low delay, high damage and is on a different delay scale? Even with Haste build, can it still make up for .64 seconds and the loss of TP from the TP nerf plus compensate for the much higher damage of shurikens?

Note: Most other shurikens are EXTREMELY expensive. A single synth for Manji shurikens uses a darksteel sheet and only provides 33 per synth (NQ). Fuma Shurikens (best throwing weapon available to my knowledge besides BQ and you'd be an idiot to throw that) also need gold ingot for a higher level synth and NQ still only provides 33 shurikens.

 

[Synical]

Little confused. Isn't ranged weapons still superior for DoT? The example I gave for a Juji Shuriken has 41 base damage whereas not even a single Katana excluding relic has a base damage that high and it's only level 28. The delay is only 192 which is below most Katanas with delays around 227 (go as low as 150 and as high as 232, with a majority at 227). Even your own statement says the delay is 100 delay equals 1 sec versus the delay of a melee weapon is 60 per second, so a shuriken will be fired off far more often at that rate. Also, why would an end game NIN have less accuracy? I understand the boomerange have far lower base damage, but a NIN's throwing skill is the same as the katana, given most people use sushi for +acc/r.acc and ranged accuracy rings are cheaper and give a lot more acc, wouldn't they have superior ranged accuracy?

OK so lets do a little math. I'll compare two weapons, one Juji Shuriken and two Katanas with exact same delay and Dual Wield III(level 50, -25% delay) and IV(level 65, -30% delay).

Juji Shuriken: 1.92 seconds per hit
Katana: 3.2 seconds per hit
2 Katanas + DWIII: 4.8 seconds per swing
2 Katanas + DWIV: 4.48 seconds per swing

So both weapons get the same TP for same delay and I can throw two shurikens in the less time than the 2 katanas will take to land 1 swing with DWIV excluding any haste. So why is melee superior when the ranged weapon has such low delay, high damage and is on a different delay scale? Even with Haste build, can it still make up for .64 seconds and the loss of TP from the TP nerf plus compensate for the much higher damage of shurikens?

Note: Most other shurikens are EXTREMELY expensive. A single synth for Manji shurikens uses a darksteel sheet and only provides 33 per synth (NQ). Fuma Shurikens (best throwing weapon available to my knowledge besides BQ and you'd be an idiot to throw that) also need gold ingot for a higher level synth and NQ still only provides 33 shurikens.

noone said that tossing those wasnt one of the best dot doptions a ninja has available to them. ive seen a few rng/nins and their damage output was impressive indeed. their just stupid expensive on a scale unmatched by most other ranged weapons. if you have the gil to do it, go for it.

however what stouter said was correct, with pratice you can get a ranged attack off As you go into a melee attack round, however, your still resetting your next attack. ittl just be pretty close to a normal non rng interrupt round. doing it this way ive found (i still melee as a rng alot for tp) is the most efficient way to both attack and shoot.
but i'm not getting any "free" attack rounds in, my melee tp is still always tied to my ranged usage.


~Syn

 

[Oropher]

You might not notice it much as a nin since you already swing so fast, but try it with a 2-handed high-delay weapon and you'll see.

dejavu.

i told him the same thing, plus: that it was so sad when i finally realized this AFTER i spent months capping my marksmanship skill. no free TP for me =( .

 

[Lavi]

But if Shurikens weren't so very expensive, wouldn't they be the better option for both DoT and TP build? To me, the numbers seem to suggest that probably get a slightly less TP build with shurikens, but the DoT more than compensates for the loss of TP. Fuma Shurikens has 72 damage and 192 delay for what probably is the highest damage per second in the entire game (excluding Nokizaru Shuriken, winds and Bomb Core which for obvious reason are infeasable to throw for DoT).

 

[neophytal]

But if Shurikens weren't so very expensive, wouldn't they be the better option for both DoT and TP build? To me, the numbers seem to suggest that probably get a slightly less TP build with shurikens, but the DoT more than compensates for the loss of TP. Fuma Shurikens has 72 damage and 192 delay for what probably is the highest damage per second in the entire game (excluding Nokizaru Shuriken, winds and Bomb Core which for obvious reason are infeasable to throw for DoT).

thats kind of a pointless argument in a way though...

what if... what if.. what if