RDM BS

[Tyrion]

No, actually they don't.

1.) No, they shouldn't stop racing go-carts in favor of Formula 1 cars, what we're suggesting is that you don't race go-carts against formula 1 cars.
2.) No, but you don't expect the support personel to fight unless they have to - the combat personel are there the fight, the support personel are there to SUPPORT - much like a RDM.

GAME OVER INSERT COIN

I got another quarter

1) Bad comparison. We don't fight against DDs, we fight with them. We don't try to beat them. We try to beat the mob. We are the Fullback in Soccer - on an offensive push, we move up to midfield to help the Offense move the ball around the field.

2) Another bad comparison - Ask yourself, whats better? 2 assault rifles firing onto an enemy position or 2 assault rifles and a guy with a pistol, a few grenades and some medpacks?

1.) No, it's not a bad comparison - by entering melee, RDMs do nothing but a) pay less attention to their duties, b.) build more hate towards themselves thus making the tank's job harder, c) take damage thus making the healers job harder, d) miss out on the casting-stat increases of wands, e) have a harder time /healing in combat because they have to put away their weapons and get out of AOE range, and finally f) build TP for the mob and let the mob use WS more often. Bomb toss, anyone?

In effect, Meleeing RDMs are fighting their party.

You're not a fullback, you're the sad sack fan who runs naked onto the field to get on TV while the professionals are trying to do their job.

2.) Since the guy with the pistol is in all likelyhood doing his job less effectively because he's fucking around somewhere else, I'd say that 2 assault rifles and another guy doing his fucking job correctly is more effective.

This is not a personal preference choice. This is like playing street fighter 2, using Ken, and then deciding you won't ever use a shoryuken because you don't like the move. If you're doing that, you're playing the character wrong. Not differently, not uniquely, but wrong.

And it gets worse, even though people just don't fucking seem to grasp this one bit:

WHEN YOU PLAY YOUR CLASS POORLY, YOU ARE MAKING THE GAME LESS FUN FOR EVERY PERSON IN YOUR PARTY!

Your choices don't just affect you, they affect maybe five (in a party) or even seventeen (in an alliance) other people.

For a real life example of poor playing making everyone unhappy, here's this little gem:

I was in the dunes (of course :roll trying to get from 19 to 20. For some reason, there was a shortage of decent tanks, so we took a WAR19 with no subjob (Danger Will Robinson! Danger!)

Fucking idiot sits down after every fight even when we told him not to, explained to him why it was a bad idea, and even threatened him. He took 5-10 seconds to get into combat mode every fucking time, and 3-8 seconds to voke. He refused to use the keyboard or to use macros.

HE WAS PLAYING WRONG.

He pissed off the entire rest of the party and since he was the only viable (a term I used loosely) tank of our level seeking, the party disbanded and my level up was delayed by two real life days by this unique individualistic fuckhead.

Meleeing RDM is not quite as severe as this example, but it's more insidious as the ill effects of it are much more subtle, but glaring when one does their research.

Look at my main job down in my sig. R-fucking-DM. I learned all this the hard way - getting bitched out by more experienced players and going to do my research, and I've come to stand by it from experience.

NO CONTINUES LEFT - THANKS FOR PLAYING

 

[Tyrion]

Go down to Red Mage

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/citizen/03.html

Have a nice day =)

These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword.

I don't really have much to say for that except for that the quote there seems to be taken directly from the manual. I'll paraphrase from one of my favorite novels ever - Faith of the Fallen by Terry Goodkind:

"What is, is. What Exists, Exists. Wishes and Whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discover them."

Meleeing RDM is not an effective addition to any party, except maybe a "Let's see how many times I can go to my home point in one night" parties.

The end.

 

[Lokkin]

awww i got a great site that sorta shows ya this pay attention to the title when it comes up

P.S. you gotta click the whm

and the fantastic link is *drumroll* :

http://www.think.com/usc/1/b/wy/35446270/bmvswmso.swf

ENJOY PEOPLE!

 

[Lokkin]

remember watch ti all the way through or it just aint funny

oh yeah the title.. isnt exactly a title... just watch it and youll see what i mean

 

[OniTatsujin]

it says im forbidden....

 

[OniTatsujin]

Go down to Red Mage

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/citizen/03.html

Have a nice day =)

These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword.

I don't really have much to say for that except for that the quote there seems to be taken directly from the manual. I'll paraphrase from one of my favorite novels ever - Faith of the Fallen by Terry Goodkind:

"What is, is. What Exists, Exists. Wishes and Whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discover them."

Meleeing RDM is not an effective addition to any party, except maybe a "Let's see how many times I can go to my home point in one night" parties.

The end.

So your saying
"Red Mages can't melee, even though the Creators of the Game expected them to"
For shame...

 

[Tyrion]

Meleeing RDM is not an effective addition to any party, except maybe a "Let's see how many times I can go to my home point in one night" parties.

The end.

So your saying
"Red Mages can't melee, even though the Creators of the Game expected them to"
For shame...[/quote]

That's pretty much what I'm saying, because if they want them to Melee, they should make it more worthwhile. RDM has some very strong points or nobody would play it. Party Melee just aint it.

SE probably did consider them a Melee class when the game was designed - but in FFT, they probably didnt design for people to stand around in a + shaped formation throwing stones at eachother while the monk in the center used chakra over and over, just to gain JP -- but they did, because it worked better than endless random battles.

 

[Lokkin]

grrrr ill try and fix it burt the title is supposed to be

8-bit Verbal Smackdown!

 

[OniTatsujin]

This isn't FFT, this is FFXI, i'm sorry
Red Mage may not do damage like a bad ass DRK or Ranger, but can they cast a spell to refresh their own mana and others? Can they cure themselves and others? Can they cast spells to enhance their sword? No, No, and No. It just adds some damage to help kill off a mob, as an Elvaan RDM/BLM, my attacks do more damage with less MP than using Nukes, so hmm...should i just melee, and when i have to cast something i have MP to do it, instead of wasting my MP casting Nukes, i could just wait, and also help with the damage, it might not be "the big /\/U/V\83R5!" but its alright damage, this is why SE handed us a sword, and gave us MP, WE support EVERYTHING, he help heal, we help nuke, we help enfeeble, we help with melee damage

 

[Tyrion]

This isn't FFT, this is FFXI, i'm sorry
Red Mage may not do damage like a bad ass DRK or Ranger, but can they cast a spell to refresh their own mana and others? Can they cure themselves and others? Can they cast spells to enhance their sword? No, No, and No. It just adds some damage to help kill off a mob, as an Elvaan RDM/BLM, my attacks do more damage with less MP than using Nukes, so hmm...should i just melee, and when i have to cast something i have MP to do it, instead of wasting my MP casting Nukes, i could just wait, and also help with the damage, it might not be "the big /\/U/V\83R5!" but its alright damage, this is why SE handed us a sword, and gave us MP, WE support EVERYTHING, he help heal, we help nuke, we help enfeeble, we help with melee damage

Apparently, this went over your head.

I was pulling an example of players finding a more efficient technique than the designers had intended. This goes for all games. Did Halo's designers expect the pistol would be the weapon of choice. Did FF8's designers think I would keep Squall at low HP all the time so I'd constantly limit break? Did FFXI's designers imagine that no mage of any color worth his salt would not even enter attack mode ever?

Probably not, but players have found that these techniques are what works best, and why bother settling for less just because some RDMs can't grasp it?

As for alright damage blah blah:

Any successful attack against a mob, be it one point of damage or fifty, builds 2% TP for the mob.

More TP means more mob weapon skill uses.

More mob weaponskill uses means more damage for the PT than would otherwise be done.

THESE ARE BAD THINGS.

THESE ARE BAD THINGS.

THESE ARE BAD THINGS.

THESE ARE BAD THINGS.

THESE ARE BAD THINGS.

Why can't you accept that a meleeing RDM is worse by all measurable means than a non-meleeing RDM?!

A RDMs strengths are not meleeing or nuking or direct damage dealing in any fashion. THey are:

Debuffing the mob.
Buffing the party.
Debuffing the mob.
Backup healing.
Debuffing the mob.

Did I mention Debuffing the motherfucking mob?!


We have a sword for soloing. We can use wands for PTing.

You wanna play a casting melee class? Play PLD or DRK. Just don't ruin the good name of my class by playing it poorly.

If we played the game the way SE apparently intended, or based on appearances, people would be playing SMN as a DD, DRKs as Tank, and DRG as a viable job.

FRAWRESS VICTOLY.

 

[OniTatsujin]

If your party can't handle 1 or 2 WS's, then your party sucks first of all
second of all, after you have all the enfeebles up, and everyone is up to full health, WHM MP looks fine, you cast Refresh on yourself and join into the fray, help add some damage, while your refresh is restoring the rest of your MP
BUt, im sorry, you know, i forgot, Not all parties are perfect, they all seem to suck for you, and you can't melee, or everyone will die, so melee when you know the party will be safe, and that your party can handle 1 or 2 ws's

 

[Ellah]

Keits, this Flamewar hasd lasted long enough.
I propose a truce. I don't directly incorporate your Opinions in my Posts, You don't directly incorporate mine, I don't directly reply to you, you don't directly reply to me, because it's obvious we will never see eye to eye. Agree ? You don't see my Points, I don't see your Points. IMO this lowers the Quality of the Boards. Useless Squabbles waste Energy, we should cut down on that, neh ?

As for my "slightly" misread post, here is the Answer:
I was making Comparisons, based on Faulty Logic, of course the End Product will be wrong ! What were you expecting ?
I explained clearly that I was using THE OTHER PERSON'S LOGIC, not MINE, and it lead to a clearly Wrong Conclusion, have I proven a Point ?

As a Redmage, I carry a +Int and Mnd Club, and have a BLM sub. Hell, I even wear Robes.I am a Taru. I don't melee, I suck at it. But what i am saying is that You yourselves pointed out, the RDM hits very little, and does minute Damage, if they keep up their party role, why stop them ?
If they are Refreshing, Regening and Enfeebling, why not let them Melee ? If they are capable of Pulling it Off, be my Guest, should Beginner RDM's Melee ? No.

 

[Runekane]

As a Redmage, I carry a +Int and Mnd Club, and have a BLM sub. Hell, I even wear Robes.I am a Taru. I don't melee, I suck at it. But what i am saying is that You yourselves pointed out, the RDM hits very little, and does minute Damage, if they keep up their party role, why stop them ?
If they are Refreshing, Regening and Enfeebling, why not let them Melee ? If they are capable of Pulling it Off, be my Guest, should Beginner RDM's Melee ? No.

Skilled players can get away with doing more things, Tyrion. I've read a lot of your posts, and it seems you're dead set against anybody meleeing that isn't tanking or doing "good" damage. Why the hell should a THF melee, looking from your point of view? All the THF is in the party for, afterall, is hate control, and after they land the first SATA, they don't need to do anything else, as each hit for 10-20 is just giving the mob TP. And all those small strikes add up, after all, as you're afraid of 1 extra WS a battle, IF it even comes to that point.

There are certain scenarios where I think it's perfectly fine for your RDM to enter melee.

1) If you're short on melee (odd party setup, such as something like NIN DRK BLM BLM RDM SMN or something along those lines). You WILL end up doing more melee damage, or just as much, as the NIN. Hell, RDM out-damage a THF in swing-for-swing.

2) If the RDM -can keep up casting his spells without missing a beat- (which isn't that hard, truth be told... if you have any sort of dexterity in your fingers at all and they're not shaped like polish sausages where you can hit a macro key easily and use the F-keys.), meleeing doesn't hurt their job really at all. NOR does it -really- hurt in the early chains, where no mage job should be expending extrodinary amounts of MP anyway. Convert is THERE for a reason, as is Refresh... RDM have the least time to rest out of all the mage jobs, and their Clear Mind ability is just plain awful compared to SMN WHM and BLM's. Resting for about 20 seconds or so will net you an extra 40 MP or something like that, if even that at level 40. Between sticking enfeebles, backup curing, Regening, Refreshing, Dispelling, and watching for the Magic Burst, there really isn't a period of time during ANY fight which would be understandable for them to rest. BLMs can afford to rest in the middle chains or so until the SC comes up, in which they hop up, burst, and sit back down again or finish the mob. WHM can afford to rest extra if the Tank's fully prepared (HIgh MP PLD, NIN who has all recast timers availble, WAR with all abilities availble, etc).
So, instead of kneeling for 15 or so MP and having to get up to reset your Clear Mind timer when the Beetle uses Rhino Guard (ie: any ability you have to dispel), there really isn't anything constructive to do. Convert makes up for the lack of clear mind on a RDM, and the Dark staff also really helps with this, but in a party up to level 51 (which Dark Staff comes availble), there really isn't much benefit to resting in the middle of a fight as a RDM when you could be in there doing more damage than the THF or PLD hit for hit. PLD damage isn't that awful... it all contributes to the mob getting killed. Fights parsed on my level 48 THF showed the PLD doing about 250-300 dmg or so per fight, which isn't awful. Why should the PLD even bother with attacking the mob? All it's doing is giving TP to the mob, as 250-300 doesn't add up, right?

I do NOT want a RDM meleeing against mobs with AOE damage (Gobs, flies), but other than that if they can do all their duties... why not? So the mob uses one more WS a battle. It will also die that much quicker if the RDM is quick on the Dispel, or DRK quick on the Stun, which pretty much requires a good party, in which case it's ok for the RDM to melee.

Jinnai (Onitatsujin) already covered most of it, but I feel it needed repeating. Basically, if your party can't handle 1 non-dmg (or petrify) ws a battle more than what they're dealing with, you basically suck ass as a RDM (not being able to overcome the mob buff) or your party is completely incompetent.

In conclusion... lol

RDM should melee if they have proven they can do their main job well (and not 1/4 of the RDM I've partied with can even do this well while OUTSIDE of melee), then it's perfectly OK to melee.

RDM should NOT melee if they are fighting AOE-damage mobs (Flies, Gobs), as you're hurting your party more than helping at that point (Although Bomb Tosses CAN easily be Stunned/stopped, but the flies' moves are too fast), because that move could knock your party out.

One more thing... Enhancing and Enfeebling is what a RDM is best at. If these skills are not capped past the learning curve (level 38 I think is the point at which people should either put up or shut up in their jobs), then you really need to reevaluate what you're doing in that job. Enhancing skill is too good NOT to cap... hell, I prefer a RDM/WHM in my parties, as their group-buffs from WHM sub are a little more powerful (since RDM tend to cast a lot more enhancing spells than WHM, and the cap is higher on RDM). Capped enhancing skill + en-spell = the most a RDM can offer to his party at that level at the melee level.

 

[Theorist]

1.) No, it's not a bad comparison - blah blah blah blah blah, etc ad infinitum

First, well said Runekane. Though I only partially agree with you on AoE mobs. If I am planning on using Convert during a battle against an AoE mob, then yeah I'm hella far away.

As for Tyrion's post. Well...I refuse to repeat myself so I will have to ask you to read my previous posts... What you probably saw in my posts before was something along the lines as how I have quoted you above. I only say this because you have stated things I have already addressed many times.

I'm sorry that melee hasn't worked out for you. I have always joined in melee as a RDM and will continue to do so until said "experienced players" start bitching me out. I get quite the opposite reaction actually in every PT I join.

"Whoa a RDM that knows what he is doing! Sweet!"
"Hey, wanna be in our static pt?"

I might add that no one ever has to ask for a Refresh or a Dispel. I make sure to let everyone know the Refresh order. All my log colors are changed so I can see resisted or dropped Debuffs and immediately recast them - all the while meleeing - and all without missing a step. It can be done. Just because you might not be able to, doesn't mean others aren't capable of it.

Refresh me
Enblizzard me
Regen Tank
Mob enters camp
Refresh PLD
Dia 2
Paralyze
Enter Melee
Refresh WHM
Slow
Gravity
Blind

Then comes standard battle and where some RDMs stand around with their hands in their pockets inbetween casts, I am actually contributing something the whole fight.

- Recast resisted debuffs
- Regen DDs if they took damage
- Toss Cures on Deep Orange HP only
- Watch for Skillchain and cast MB
- Recast dropped debuffs and Refresh
- Dispel Mob buffs
- Count to 30 on Chain 5s and beyond - if mob is still very alive at 30 seconds, start tossing out more nukes.
- Watch MP - know when to withdraw and rest
- Plan Convert usage a mob in advance
- When Mob is close to being dead - regen everyone that took damage (unless WHM is doing Curaga) - Refresh BLM and then rest

As Runekane said, there is way too much for a RDM to do to spend time resting during fights. Might as well do some melee damage.

 

[Valec31]

If we played the game the way SE apparently intended, or based on appearances, people would be playing SMN as a DD, DRKs as Tank, and DRG as a viable job.

Ok here we go DRG bashing again. What you don't like us doing 4 or more times the dmg her hit (with the exception of DRK) as other melee jobs in he pt? Not to mention the extra help of a Wyvern that is free dmg even on WS? O I forgot that is more TP for the mob.... Personally I would want to kill it faster than have it hacking away at us longer because we don't want to hit it. Maybe you should just get a static party with all mages so you don't even have to melee with it. Just my opinion but don't bash jobs you havn't used past lvl 10.

 

[Keits]

if they keep up their party role, why stop them ?

No one here wants to stop them. Thats the part that you continually miss. What I want is to tell you that a non-melee RDM is better than a melee RDM in a party that is focused on gaining as much xp as possible within the shortest ammount of time.

It still doesnt matter how you word it, you will always be wrong if you argue the other side. Can a melee RDM still be a good, worthwhile player? YES, for the 20-hojillionth time, you fucking morons, a melee RDM can perform very well, and be an asset to the party.

Would a RDM of equal skill be even better to that same party? Mathematicaly, because of all of the factors that have been listed by myself of Tyrion, YES, a non-melee RDM is better.

I know a lot of you get the wrong idea when looking at your damage at low levels. Up to and a bit beyond 30, RDM melee does a bit more than it will late game. Issue: It takes as much xp to get from lv 1-55 as it does 56-75. Some of the things you learn early game change, a lot, when you get into the real meat of the game. The low levels are VERY fast, in comarison to the higher levels, and the increase in a mob's power and evasion is DRASTIC from level to level, not subtle like it is in the 30s and 40s.

So, even though your arguements for RDM melee at YOUR levels, right now, dont hold water... they will continually leak as you level farther. Dont be so shortsighted to think that your B-weapon with no accuracy/dex gear will hit anything IT at all as you level. When when it does, your attack rating is so low that you can expect to hit for 1-10 damage at best.

Ex. At level 62, i recently did a food experiment. SAM/THF lacks the Attack Bonus of /WAR (and berserk...), and I wanted to test the use of Jack-O-Lanterns (and their rumored Accuracy Bonus). We were in Cape Terrigan, fighting cockatrice that are meant (according to my leveling guides) for lv64 groups. My g.katana is 66 damage, and my STR is like 58+7. Using the Jack-O-Lantern, my Attack rating was about 230. I was hitting these IT cockatrice for... 10-20 damage?!

Next I try a T.Riceball with my AF Gloves. This bumps my dex up by 3, and my Attack up by 45. Now im hitting for 40-50.

Next I try a Meat Mithkabob, which bumps my attack up by 57, and my STR by 5. Now im hitting for 50-65.

Use the data above to come to your own conclusion. Redmage has:
-Mage Food
-A weapon with under 1/2 the damage of my G.katana
-No melee equipment bonuses
-Lower default melee stats than the SAM
-Mage sub

How much damage to you honestly expect to hit for? How often do you honestly expect to even hit the mob? When you do manage to hit, is the tiny damage worth giving the monster extra TP to use against your party? How long will it take you to disenguage and switch targets if you get an add, so you can sleep it? Will it be fast enough to save the other mages?

I could go on for days asking you questions that, when answered correctly, would show you how a melee-rdm just doesnt make sense. But, seriously, if you havent figured that out yet, there isnt much that you are going to understand at all.

Melee if you want, and be a good RDM while you melee. I dont care about that. Just dont come to a forum and try to prove that its somehow better than being outside of melee. It just can't be. Not because I said so, or some other 'experienced' players said so... its because it just doesnt work as well. Period. The end.

 

[OniTatsujin]

Keits, i think that we were argueing with Tyroin, because Tyroin believes that RDM is very very bad and should be stopped...

 

[OniTatsujin]

Keits, i think that we were argueing with Tyroin, because Tyroin believes that RDM is very very bad and should be stopped...

Err.. i mean, RDM meleeing

 

[Keits]

Keits, i think that we were argueing with Tyroin, because Tyroin believes that RDM is very very bad and should be stopped...

Which is a much much smarter view on things that the popular jack-of-all-trades viewpoint.

In a game largely based on dice rolls and mathematics, you cant just play how you want, or use 'skill' to make something good. Every player abides by the same rules; its just that some players chose to learn about and acknowlage those rules, and other chose to ingore them and play for 'fun' (the most comon defense of a poor player).

 

[OniTatsujin]

Keits, people who play for fun aren't bad or weak players, a game is an activity that involves having fun, do you think people play Monopoly just so they can have high numbers, and stuff, or do they play for fun?
You chose the side of pointing out that RDM melee isn't best to do all the time, and now you gone to a new side of RDM melee is overall bad. Your confusing :?
And jeez, me and runekane have already posted what you can benefit from RDM melee, and work when your party is good, but in some cases, you can't melee because your party sucks, and can't handle another ws, and RDM melee, yes is only good for mobs that don't have AoE attacks. But otherwise its pretty good, so please just shut the hell up, and the verdict of this arguement is
"Red Mage melee is only capable in a strong/good party, but is bad against Goblins and Flies and other AoE attacking mobs, and for poor parties. Do not expect to deal heavy damage as Red Mage, more of support damage, as we are a Support class"

and Keits, maybe you would of read something like this earlier, if you actually read the whole thing, but obviously you didn't, and stop being so god damn "mathematical" about everything and what everyone does.