rdm melee debate continued

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hellstorm

hellstorm

RDM the taboo subject
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hellstorm
If any you been seeing the necrosis thread lately you will notice there is a derail about rdm mage melee. I decide to continue this thread here. This is a debate not a flame, so civil post plz , let the rdm melee prediction begin.
 
first off like ro repost some of the post that I posted already so please forgive me for multiple post.

intresting post I found on allakazam (yes I know lol allakazam, but I wonder if there any truth in it hmm like to see what type of gear he is wearing.


Originally Posted [I said:
RealityBytes]

[/I]
saevellakshmi wrote:
You only give up WS, and you KNOW the majority of RDMs damage comes from DoT / Enspells.
Click to expand...

Andrew S. Grove, the co-founder of Intel, put it well in 2005 when he told an interviewer from Fortune, “When everybody knows that something is so, it means that nobody knows nothin’." (from NYT article that I'm reading).

Since you KNOW the majority of RDMs come from DoT/Enspells, I guess you wouldn't mind taking a little quiz?

Which of the following was the damage from WS parsed by a RDM/NIN in an exp party (WS Damage/Total damage):
1) 21%
2) 27%
3) 28%
4) 30%

Care to guess what the other 3's jobs were? You probably couldn't guess, could you? Hint: The other three are considered "melee DD".

Same question, different party:
1) 28%
2) 35%
3) 59%

Okay, I'll give you the answer to this one. 3) is obviously a SAM 1) was a Ridill/Joy WAR 2) was me, a melee RDM/NIN.

Since we all KNOW the majority of WAR's damage comes from DoT, there should be no problem going /DNC right? I mean, you're only giving up WS.

-- Starfox----------------------------
　 ,-‐-､
　／　　　 ヽｧ Starfox - Odin
/ ,-､　 \フ
|　　{` ） ! WAR75 - MNK75 - WHM75
`､___ｰ´ /
　 ,ノ ,.ﾍ、 BLM75 - RDM75 - THF75
Click to expand...

　source: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.h...1264537;page=5


that hmm was not a sarcastic hmm btw I would really like to see what type of gear his wearing. Well pulled up his profile. http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?144315
not bad wonder what his ws set is.
 
Mensur_Epee.jpg

that is base stats of weapon now. low cost weapon and dmg output even in a full party setup is not that much less then that of anelace +1.
  • Damage increases by 2 inversely to the party size, up to 47 when soloing.
  • This effect is not active on weaponskills.
ok now look here.

Anelace_Plus1.jpg

mil sword, but is better then mensur in full party setup.
Enhancing_Sword.jpg

activate by en- spells, 2+ mil sword high delay
Martial_Anelace.jpg

same dmg as mensur, much higher delay

now look on wikia the dps of the weapons go
mensur 10.45
anelace +1 10.57
enhancing 10.00
martial 9.75

making the mensur the 2nd best dps weapon [with no latents] (not including relic)

it early time for bed expect more later.
 
Best I EVER saw a Rdm parse, including DoT, was 11%.

Call me when you let a real DD stay with 11% total damage. Protip: Colibri don't count.


EDIT: (So I can't be accused of not contributing) Rdm melee is behind/equal to whm and ahead of smn and blm, and no one wants them meleeing either.

As long as melee is counter productive to the strengths of rdm, it is not practical in merit at all and exp up to a certain point. If you're low manning, fine, the extra damage is helpful, but outside of that, no. Rdms best swords outside of relic (Good luck getting that) are not special compared to what BLU PLD and hell, even WAR gain acces to, we have no strong native weaponskills without using a sub which decreases our survivability/versatility, We don't get the Kris or Hoplite class daggers (although Blau Dolch is good) or either Dancing Edge or Shark Bite (not to mention Evisceration is 72+), and focusing on melee reduces our ability to focus on debuffing the enemy and buffing the party.

Can you do it? Yes. Is it efficient? No, and that's where the problem lies. As long as it is not efficient, people could care less about attempting to try it.
 
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I outdamaged a ridill WAR as a BLU, and I had nowhere near excellent gear. Some melees just suck, even if they have a good weapon. A melee SMN with excellent gear could outdamage a bad WAR that go afk half the time.
 
Yea, a smn/sam gets 15% plus pet damage while the bard sings madrigal and idiots on Alla claim "melee smn works"...
 
who wants to bet me this gets moved to the Flameboard in a week or less?
 
I am going to try and be open about this, even though I think its complete BS. Let say you as a RDM geared for melee on exp mobs.

Myself as a DRK have 38 acc 10 Dex 5 scythe skill 69 attk 16 STR and 15% haste in my TP build for merits. I also have full scythe merits. Now I have to wear gear/use merits to enhance my meleeing to be a contributor as far as DMG goes.

A RDM with 250 skill +16 from merits +5 from DM earring + 7 from torque, can get 278 tops in sword skill. So a melee "pimped" out RDM can get slightly more then a lvl 75 unmerited mediocrely geared melee with an A ranked weapon. You would have to use alot of ACC equip to even be close to being able to hang on Mamools. Still would need alot of acc for colibri. So to combat this, you would probably use sushi, which would solve most of your problems with acc, but almost any DD you pick up, merited or not will be able to blow you out of the water if they have acceptable gear.
 
Uzor said:
I outdamaged a ridill WAR as a BLU, and I had nowhere near excellent gear. Some melees just suck, even if they have a good weapon. A melee SMN with excellent gear could outdamage a bad WAR that go afk half the time.
Click to expand...

Care to elaborate anymore than just "I did it"?

Same thing goes for the quote from Alla. I cannot see alla from work, but I kind of wonder why he refers only WS damage? I am guessing it has to a lot to do with fighting Colibri and the RDM never losing his TP while other real DDs constantly lose thiers after pulling hate.
 
sidetracking a bit from the discussion but

how well does the DoT of joytoy work out?

and what was the setup of the rdm/nin? I've been working on a melee set(far from done) for solo work such as acc,eva,att,str,dex,etc.

anyone want to share their setups?
 
etchdog2000 said:
I am going to try and be open about this, even though I think its complete BS. Let say you as a RDM geared for melee on exp mobs.

Myself as a DRK have 38 acc 10 Dex 5 scythe skill 69 attk 16 STR and 15% haste in my TP build for merits. I also have full scythe merits. Now I have to wear gear/use merits to enhance my meleeing to be a contributor as far as DMG goes.

A RDM with 250 skill +16 from merits +5 from DM earring + 7 from torque, can get 278 tops in sword skill. So a melee "pimped" out RDM can get slightly more then a lvl 75 unmerited mediocrely geared melee with an A ranked weapon. You would have to use alot of ACC equip to even be close to being able to hang on Mamools. Still would need alot of acc for colibri. So to combat this, you would probably use sushi, which would solve most of your problems with acc, but almost any DD you pick up, merited or not will be able to blow you out of the water if they have acceptable gear.
Click to expand...

278 is the same top sword skill a Ridill-war can obtain. The difference is in the weapons available, and the other gear to enhance the weapons. Vorpal Blade is a weak weak weak weaponskill. You need to not only pile on STR, but also pile on ACC and Dex to make it even remotely effective.

WAR has access to the entire Hecatomb/Adaman Set to beef up their damage, as well as another sword to enhance the skills of the offhand weapon. The lack of Perdu Hanger's availability to RDM is huge. +18 attack and +5 acc are HUGE when coupled with a proper DD gear set, especially when your skill level is a B prior to merits / gear.
For melee gear, RDM has access to Dusk sets as well as the Turban and Swift / speed belt. All of these enhancements are Haste, but the attack level is still going to be horribly low. Using joyeuse and/or justice sword, you're going to be hitting very quickly for very low damage. This would roughly equate to being the equivalent of an unmerited THF using NIN sub without the Spike damage on weaponskills.
AKA needless tp given to a mob.
 
being a rdm myself, i wouldnt ever want to melee in pt, dynamis, or anywhere other wise where the 10-30 seconds i would spend meleeing, i could gain next to 100 mp resting.

but, i melee alot solo and my 'well geared' would go a little something like..

/nin

main: Blau Dolch
sub: joy
ammo: t.sting
head: warlocks chapeau (only cuz utsu casting so frequently, no sense in meleeing in turban)
neck: pcc (7skill < 10 acc when 200+ skill, esp. when taking about rdm melee)
ear: suppa
ear: Ethereal Earring
body: duelist tabard
hand: dusk (+1)
ring: defending ring
ring: jelly ring or rajas
back: shadow mantle or Umbra Cape
waist: speed belt, n.sash (lolAV)
legs: goliard trews or paluwan legs
feet: dusk (+1)

aaaaaaa.jpg





/blu (mainly) /drk /war ect.

Main: joy or e.sword
sub: genbu
ranged: lamia bow +1
or
ammo: bikibi seashell
head: darksteel cap+1
neck: Fortitude Torque or Orochi Nodowa
body: darksteel harness +1 or Ogre Jerkin +1
Hands: Darksteel Mittens +1
Ring: defending ring
ring: jelly
back: umbra cape
waist: warwolf
legs: goliard trews
feet: Darksteel Leggings +1 or Blood greaves

-44% psyical damage reduction, -49% at night

bbbbbb.jpg




a rdm subbing anything is not going to be able to to beat any main class dd. the best they could do is be a semi blu, any without being able to self sc and having a high mp cost to damage ratio...get back and support heal =P
 
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This is still going on? Under what powerline covered, lead paint and asbestos encrusted rocks, lying right outside a nuclear power plant are these people living under to still think it's a good idea? Just because some completely pimped out red mage out damaged a gimp real DD job this one time under these specific circumstances does not justify the class being a damage dealer.

Get your ass back to the back row and start slinging spells. If you want to DD, change your job.
 
No. This "debate" is so three years old, it isn't funny. I could easily form a better case for WHM melee using flimsy evidence, but it won't happen.

And what is it with RDMs and swords? If you're subbing NIN, you should be mainhanding a dagger.
 
I really don't understand. Why mainhand a dagger and offhand a sword? Does the swap in delay have something to do with it?
 
Uzor said:
I outdamaged a ridill WAR as a BLU, and I had nowhere near excellent gear. Some melees just suck, even if they have a good weapon. A melee SMN with excellent gear could outdamage a bad WAR that go afk half the time.
Click to expand...

It was a Ridill/JOY WAR (in hellstorms post) That doesn't exactly qualify as a "Ridill WAR" in my eyes.
 
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