Rdm Vs. Brd Determining Tank: Therory 101

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Devastatorprime

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Ok guys I comprrised this therory a longtime ago and I was wondering how many people might agree with me. And Im totally open to suggestions. So here goes...(Mostly deal with the Refresh aspect of the two jobs)

RDM in party means Pld tank will be better due to the individual Refresh thus not effecting the rest of the pt like Ballad does.
BRD in a pt mean Nin tank is better due to Nin's lacking Mp ballad will not be needed for them. So the Accuracy and Stregth Bonuses serve a purpose to him unlike a Pld where Valor Minuet is just pointless.

This all comes from not having Ballad during fights cause (if your pt knows what they're doing) Ballad during downtime aint worth a shit cause your downtime is short as shit.

Thus I believe if your in a Nin Tank pt Brds are best but if your in a Pld Tank pt Rdm is best.

Note: Not saying either cant work cause I know from experience tht they can Im just stating that Certain Tank+Certain Refresher just be more efficient. (This is just a therory)
 
Not to bash PLD's, but i have found lvl'n my rng with a brd to 53 atm, that pld's seem to be the ones that dont work well a brd. We have partied with some great pld's that have been able to adjust thier style, and some that haven't.
the main thing for pld's to do when tanking with a brd is to have his back to the mages at a distance away from them. the brd can easily hit him with ballad, and having vivacious etude cuts the dmg by so much, i have really amazed.
with the pld's that don't seem to work out, you can tell they just arent very good tanks to begin with. they continously allow hate to be gained by the mages and melee, without anything extraordanary being done by them, and therefore dont have the discipline.
So to couner (kind of) your theory:
BRD & RDM both fit if you have a PLD who can adjust his style, and hold mob in one place.
If BRD is not working out with a PLD, chances are the PLD is not very good, or the brd is not setting up fighting positions properly. when we get into a pt my brd tells the mages where to stand, pld where to stand, and melee where to stand.
 
A good bard can work with a pld tank, if the pld will work with them. I never had trouble keeping 2 ballads on a pld that could keep their back to the mages.

Oh, and who says you need to have a bard OR a rdm, can't you have both?

But since this is the flame board, damn you ithenas, you would voke then take two steps forward right as I was casting ballad and step out of range. Damn you. Several other plds do this too, habitually so a thief can get behind them I assume, ith is the one person I can remember specifically doing it though.
 
I'd say a RDM/WHM, BRD/WHM, NIN/WAR (a very good one is very helpful to bring in the uber exp), 3 other DD jobs depending on the level it can change.. prior to 60 a THF is a must. After 60 a THF is still gonna help hold hate but a DRK/THF or a WAR/THF or anything else is nice... I'd say having a WAR/NIN is nice to have for back up tanking incase the NIN goes down.. but ya.. that's my thoughts...
 
Well, fresh on the first page of the Guides section, where a "101 class" is obviously supposed to go...


The support roles can be looked at from the following jobs: WHM RDM BLM SMN BRD

But any 3 of them randomly chosen will not always work, especially depending on your choice of tank. I would say, for the most part, you want a RDM in there with a PLD. Refresh is a single target spell, and Ballad is not. Most PLD don't get Ballad during the actual fight and it makes holding hate a difficulty. It can certainly work, but, all things must be compensated accordingly. Maybe a THF in the PT at that point would be a good idea, even when usually it's a bad choice for PLD, as you need DDs capable of compensating thelr low damage capability. BRD and RDM work well together, but not with a WAR tank unfortunately. With PLD that means they get to be their own main healer, and have total control of mob. With Nin that's just fine becuase rdm can heal for nin as they get so little damage. War however require too much outside healing and need a WHM.
Click to expand...

This is an section of a party assembly guide... written by... oh yeah, me.

http://www.qcdn.org/viewtopic.php?t=2602

Though far be it for us to discuss it somewhere that makes sense like there as opposed to, the flameboard for some random reason?
 
Devastators summary:

Thus I believe if your in a Nin Tank pt Brds are best but if your in a Pld Tank pt Rdm is best.
Click to expand...

It reads as if you are referring to the refreshing aspect of these two jobs only? If not then there are plenty of arguments to be made. A Red Mage has many other uses than a Refreshing Whore. Though that is their place (mwhaha kidding), they have a plethora (trying to expand my day to day vocabulary) of other uses. They have nifty spells such as blind, paralyze, dia, bio, gravity, and more, not to mention if he/she is subbing Whm as any good Rdm should (in my opinion...I HATE seeing a Rdm write "Poisana please, need to rest"), then a whole other set of useful spells to use. Now you can say that Whm and Blm can easily make up for the loss of a Rdm and the addition of a Bard. This is true, and may work better, but when you free up your Whm and Blm to do other things...or dare I suggest...have the Rdm main heal...then you are looking at a more effecient party. More efficient usually equals more fun. Usually!

So what is the point? Well I shall tell you! Put a Rdm in a Ninja tanking group. Say you have a pretty standard party setup. Rdm, Nin, Thf, Drg, Blm, Whm. This group, with the right mobs and right teamwork, can easily break the 3k an hour mark. To me 3k is low but acceptable sometimes. The Rdm is debuffing a lot here. Gravity works wonders. It also allows the Blm to focus more on his damage dealing than his debuffing. A nicely placed frost in the beginning might be all he needs. The Rdm and a decent Nin can handle the rest of the debuffing. What would be the difference with a Brd in the party? Maybe a faster killing rate. But that is about it. In return for more power added onto your Ninja, Dragoon, and Thief, you are having the Whm and Blm spending more time debuffing. Either will work well, and this is just in a standard party setup. I dont like standard party setups which will come into play later.

So in a Paladin tank party, the same is true. Red Mage is easier to land the refresh. That is the only difference. Well pre-55 his refresh will be better, but that should play little impact. With a Bard, you are getting (pre-55) a refresh and another buff. If the Bard is good, it will be a Vit raising buff or defense raising. That will allow the tank to take less damage. Plus, you are allowing the Whm less wasted mp. With a Rdm, you are getting a great debuffer and a strong refresh, both of which add to efficiency.

Summing up, in a standard party format, the two are near to interchangeable. It relies completely on preference. Some say Pld are harder to use with Brd, so they prefer Rdm. Having played Brd, I know that my leadership will have a hand in fixing that problem. Even if I am NOT leader. Rdm can do some things Brd cannot do, and vice versa. An extra burst is always nice. As is Carnage Elegy! Its when you make special parties that it matters. A mage heavy party could benefit more from an AOE refresh. A melee heavy party could benefit more from Madrigal and Minuette. A White Mage-less party NEEDS a Rdm. Or go wild and throw em together! A Brd, Rdm, Blm, Nin, Rng, Drk, that is a good time! Preference my dear boy, preference is where it matters. ( there are other special circumstances I have not covered such as special mob parties and other like situations)

Faedryth
 
Actually even if you look at the non-refresh aspects BRD is stil more useful as nin and rdm for pld.

Nin can debuff, pld can't. Hence rdm's debuffs are a bit of overkill considering the Nin can just do it. And then the nin can make use of madrigal and minuet for some effective melee action. As well BRD can use a slow song in addition to the Nin's Slow, which is a Ni so is very easy to cast.
 
Thanks for throwing yalls insight on this topic. But, As to the post refering to "Brd's telling where pt members should setup." Of all the Brd's Ive partied with (And trust me with two friends that main Brd it been quite alot) none ever take the time to even try even when i suggest it. Note I did stat it can be done with either or with good results I was just saying how they can be used just a little bit more efficiently. As for the "Vivicious Etlude" song, I have yet to this day have a Brd ever use that once, they typically Do Minuet and Madrigal then coast through the exp with only a few cures and maybe a debuff here and there.
 
Ok sounds like the bards you have been using arent all that great. If they are not willing to explain how it should work, then they arent too concerned about the party. Secondly, a Bard cant get by on two or three songs. Madrigal, Minuette, and Ballad are not enough. Bards have so much more that they CAN do. Try finding a great Bard and youll see what they can do.

Faedryth
 
First it's not a guide it's just a thought. Second this whole topic is about Tank and Refreshers. DD are not my concern with this cause I hold hate non-the less. So the DD "Factor" does not apply here.
 
Then you obviously haven't partied with some of the DD I know. I've partied with some awesome tanks, but they still lost hate to some DD players. And with a good bard, the pld can get ballad along with the mages.

Regardless, I like bard better than rdm, for 2 reasons.

1. Chocobo Mazurka - 'nuff said.

2. I don't have to wait for the rdm to get to me in their refreshing order. As a whm, I'm pretty high, but I've had to go a bit without refresh before because the rdm was refreshing other people when mine wore.
 
Interesting thoughts. I still believe either will work fine, brd and rdm share the same primary role, so you'll get what you invited them for regardless which you get. Now, it's your choice if you want an enfeebler and back up healer/nukre, or a state buffer. From then on it's just choice and personal preference/availbility.



Faedryth said:
They have nifty spells such as blind, paralyze, dia, bio, gravity, and more, not to mention if he/she is subbing Whm as any good Rdm should (in my opinion...I HATE seeing a Rdm write "Poisana please, need to rest"), Faedryth
Click to expand...

:roll: Please, though whm is a great sub for rdm (truthly, ANY mage job benifits rdm, even brd, so it doesn't matter. Not that you still wouldn't get any invites *glares at the level 60+ melee rdm and /nin rdm*) I find blm more useful to me. I won't lie, the overall choice for my blm sub is to have something NEW, 70 levels of smn using mostly my whm sub, and I'm aching for something different. Hower, besides the higher int, I end up doing more damage on MB, getting the level 1 -ga spells (pretty nifty for low level mobs, I love it) the ungodly-tool-for-the-lazy warp, and the life saving Yes-I-am-god chainshpell + escape (you will not believe the amount of times I have saved my pt's asses with this. Shit happens, and i'm damage control) Also, aspir and drain though slightly gimped, prove very useful to me. I just find blm sub is an overall better package to me.

btw Faedryth, I never ask for "Poisana please, need to rest", because I'm not one of the ass retarded rdm out there. I know that stoneskin not only stops poison from damaging you, it allows you to rest with it on, and to boot makes you that much safer. (we all know what stoneskin does) 8)
 
From my point of view, BRD is far better than RDM any day. I dont get the stupid asses saying "Oh you have 800mp, you dont need refresh". BRD CANT FUCK IT UP!! Post 55 BRD only gets better, from a mages point of view. Learned Elude makes me even beefier aswell. :P


I <3 BRD! .... No missed refresh.
 
lol Falsey. I'm thinking yours is a bad case of retard rdm then of "omg why are all rdm like this" I've had bards give me only 1 refresh song and then give me the mind bonus song as smn, wtf lol? Anyways, for the sake of cycle, I usually refresh everyone even if they are full mp.
 
I just wanna say thx agian to people who posted and gave interesting points. As for you people posting about "This is stupid or this is Pointless" DONT FUCKIN READ IT OR POST THEN. Go fuck off in another forum topic. And be glad you didnt waste your time typing or reading.
 
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