Read And State Your Opinion

Elemmire

Elemmire

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Elemmire
http://kalorin.com/stuff/thoughts/juvenile_delinquents.html

serious discussion, obviously. I have recently read Starship Troopers and this is one part that's really interesting in my opinion. I was just curious of the people on this board, what their opinion is :) I have my own (but I'm sure some can guess it) but I'll hold off until I get to read other people's response.

If you want a summary, well, I really can't make a proper one, best to read it all.
 
There was some mildly interesting stuff(banning corporal punishment in schools being stupid is one of them), but the end just got away from them. Especially the talk on rights, the "pursuit of happiness" was never a natural right, it was property. Mr. Dubois also completely ignored most of the aspects of rights, which undermines most of what he's saying if you actually know what he's talking about.

Breaking down the term juvenile delinquent was pretty dumb as well, kids still have duties; not as serious as adults' duties usually, but they still have them. Plus, it's referring to a physical age, not a mental one; so while a 15-year-old might "acquire a knowledge of duty and embraces it as dearer than the self-love he was born with" and become an adult in that guy's eyes, the kids is still legally juvenile, because maturity isn't a legal factor.

So, it was somewhat interesting, but whoever Mr. Dubois is(if he's even a real person), he's got some nice rhetoric, with just enough buzz words to sound credible; but really he's not "proving" anything.
 
Mr. Dubois is a character in Starship Troopers :P (the book), Baja. Essentially he's really Heinlein's voice in the book. Far as I can tell Heinlein is using Mr. Dubois to get his personal philosophy through. I thought it was an interesting read but I agree with you and partially agree with him. I agree that a child being spanked isn't a bad thing and can help but that does depend on the parent cause some parents won't know how to properly punish their kid and just be too aggressive (he sorta states that with a puppy being hit every hour, too much won't get the point across).

If you realize, he is basically making the assumption that Humans are born without any good in them and society is what keeps us in line(this is the opposite of a Romantic's view who believes they are born good but society corrupts). I don't agree with his view there either (nor do I really agree entirely with the Romantic's view :P) cause we have some morals, in a sense, naturally in us. For example, we're a social being, we've evolved to know that working together is better than working alone (in terms of survival) so I have a feeling most are born with that sort of good, that they won't do serious wrong (they might have some moments where the group doesn't agree and seen as somewhat deviant, but for a social creature, it isn't going to last long so long as people don't like what s/he is doing). I think the problem more are the few bad apples that kinda cause a ripple-like corruption effect. In my opinion, society and humans aren't independent, one isn't wrong and the other the right that keeps things going, but linked (that should really seem obvious considering we invented the type of society we have). I do think that perhaps a few bad humans did corrupt society (and other humans around them) and that corruption in society will corrupt a few more so it's not like one exactly solely is the cause of corruption or a human acting in lesser than ideal ways, but both playing a part in them acting poor but also plays for making (in a way) an "ideal" human.

I hope that made sense :P I'm a bit tired since I just woke up but ya. I agree that kids being punished through a physical punishment isn't such a big deal so long as it's done right (not too much, not too little, punishing and showing that what they are doing wrong by being angry about it). Beating a kid until you break their bones is wrong, but spanking them a few times on the butt isn't going to scar them for life >.> hell, Singapore uses corporal punishment (and they do so as bad as being whipped, I think Thursday is always the day they have whipping or canings or whatever) and, if you don't count the Vatican, they have the lowest crime rate in the world (if not, than one of the lowest). Where as we have the highest and our punishments are never really THAT bad specially for some crimes that are really horrible :|

However, just saying again, I don't agree entirely with what Heinlein was saying in that section but I do agree that corporal punishment isn't necessarily a bad or wrong way to punish someone and I agree that punishments should be cruel and unusual for the reasons he stated :P I just really found this an interesting read cause it had thing I agree with and things I don't but it makes you think and that's something I enjoy.
 
Ok, I thought it was an actual teacher or something, not just a character in a book.
 
hehe, it's a pretty interesting book, another philosophy stated in the book is that a person should earn the right to vote. I could prolly find that part online too I think.. hmmm

But I'll just state that in this society (if you have seen the movie they sorta mention it but don't) a citizen is someone who can vote or hold office because they served two years in the Military. Now, the military in this book isn't like ours today, there is the army/navy/fighters but there are the R&D (and varying degrees of it, not always focused on military) and there are the civil kinda servants/workers (the ones who build roads, maintain them, build the buildings, etc) and EVERYONE is allowed to join, so long as you have the willingness to join and serve at least two years (unless it's war time and they need you for longer) than you can gain the right to vote. If you're handicapped, disabled, or whatnot in anyway they'll still find a place where you can be useful so long as you're willing to go through the hardships and hard work they'll place on you.

Now, I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, having the Military service stating you have the right to vote but the idea was that if you're willing to serve in the Military and go through all this hardship and basically placing the group above yourself, that is, you're willing to put your own body between harm's way and the civilians (which are the people who can't vote) than you should have the right to vote or hold office because you're going to put the group and majority over yourself and do what's best. In a sense, the idea is that you're fighting for your rights to vote/whatnot as our founding fathers fought for their (and our rights) but also you're proving you're putting the majority over yourself.

I think that's an interesting philosophy, I don't know if I'd agree with the means (having to go into the military) but the idea that only those who have that quality being the ones allowed to vote/hold office is interesting. There's also the belief that someone who's willing to work and fight for his/her voting privilege will also value it more and not waste it :P

So, basically, I bring this up cause I wonder what people think about this philosophy as well as the one stated in the link of the first post :P
 
i loved this book, i havetn read it in forever, i need to touch up on it again
 
hehe, ya, it's a good book. I don't agree fully with the philosophy but there are interesting points made.
 
Rorschach said:
As for punishing kids, heres my opinion^^

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=beat

More people need to go to this site.
Click to expand...

LMAO Ror, I visit that website since 1999. The link you provided is one of the most awesome things Maddox has ever written. XD

When at another's man house, abide by his rules. This is where the juvenile delinquents fail... No matter if they have been educated properly or not, they have to follow the rules. In this case, the rules society impose. Fair or not, they are the majority and will make juvenile delinquents pay.

Reading Mr. Duboise's explain the contradiction in the term Juvenile Delinquent is interesting.
 
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