Religion kills?

Tristam Green said:
That said, what this guy exhibited is not extreme Christianity, and to think that is the case is ridiculous. lol, In fact, when I think ofEXTREME CHRISTIANITY, I think of someone who really does what was asked; shedding all earthly possessions and living a mendicant life, spreading love and the Gospel.
e is!)
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I'm quoting this for emphasis. This is what an extreme christian is. The regular person can say they're very annoying, but they have good intention in their heart. The problem is, rules and restrictions they're preaching that they believe is good intention isn't always.

This man was disturbed and just took things to far. It's not an extreme Christan but rather an extreme action on behalf of saving his sons soul... from the last story chapter in the Bible. The way he saw it was if he kills him now, he'll get him into heaven and save him before he grows up and possibly gets captured by this anti-christ and sent to hell.


Honestly people, honestly. There's 2 distinct sides. Those of the atheists and those of the religious. Both sides NEED to know 100% of the facts behind each others beliefs in order to debate I believe. The science and the bible. That's why I don't debate this stuff, I don't have all the facts yet.

Regardless, I just can't see there being a God at all. I don't think he told anyone to write the Bible, I think it was a bunch of con-artists, I really do. Also, when I say this I mean no disrespect what so ever, but I think Jesus Christ was one of the biggest con-artists Earth has ever seen, regardless of his good intentions. Until I fully understand absolutely everything there is to the bible and evolution and the arguments of science, I will continue thinking this because yes, I do believe we evolved, I don't think we went poof and there we were with Adam and Eve as our ancestors and yes I have every right to say everything I just said, you may :O! if you'd like, but that's my right.

To any other extremists that follow this post and tell me I'm going to burn in hell or make some sort of cute joke/comment hoping to get away with it with some lol's thrown in, don't. I'd rather burn in a fictional hell then drown in your delusion and I would only say that when someone tells me I'm going to burn in hell. Is it possible for there to be any more of a rude comment then that? Seriously, what's worse? Someone saying Jesus was a fraud or telling someone they're going to burn in hell? I look forward to the answers.
 
I want to add in that respect is my #1 moral in life. I would NEVER stomp down on your beliefs unless it crossed a line. Telling me I'm burning in hell is one of them. Coming into my own life and telling me to live a different way is another. When someone does this, I do take it lighter. I don't bitch and scream, I stand firm and respectful and correct them in their place that it's not right they do that, regardless if it's their duty as Christians.

Saying that, I fully respect anyone that lives their lives the way they please, as long as they live their own lives. Peace of mind has to be one of the most important things on Earth and if following Jesus Christ and what he promoted in his days does that for you, the good for you and more power to you. As an atheist I follow similar guidelines and achieve the same great feeling.


Maybe we can start something here where we come together and decide what is crossing the line for both atheists and religious.
 
Cua said:
I want to add in that respect is my #1 moral in life. I would NEVER stomp down on your beliefs unless it crossed a line. Telling me I'm burning in hell is one of them. Coming into my own life and telling me to live a different way is another. When someone does this, I do take it lighter. I don't bitch and scream, I stand firm and respectful and correct them in their place that it's not right they do that, regardless if it's their duty as Christians.

Saying that, I fully respect anyone that lives their lives the way they please, as long as they live their own lives. Peace of mind has to be one of the most important things on Earth and if following Jesus Christ and what he promoted in his days does that for you, the good for you and more power to you. As an atheist I follow similar guidelines and achieve the same great feeling.


Maybe we can start something here where we come together and decide what is crossing the line for both atheists and religious.
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Man, words cannot express how much of your #1 moral I have for you right now.

I'm more than happy to tell anyone what crosses the line for Christians, but it really wouldn't do any good in the end, because there are people (on both sides, too!) that would not stop at the line, not even cross it, but set the line on fire and piss on it just for kicks and giggles.

The way I feel about my fellow Christians feeling singled-out because of their faith has never changed; they knew it came with the territory. Even that is outlined explicitly in our own teachings, lol.
 
After reading like the thousandth thread on the evils of believing something that someone else doesnt, usually regarding a nutjob claiming to be a christian, I wonder 1 thing.

If people are so smart, why cant they tell the difference between a real christian, and a nutjob who does some horrible crap all the while claiming to be a christian. I mean the difference is night and day if you ask me.

-Loves his/her neighbor and even their "enemy" = Real Christian

-Loves to hate people who are differnet from them in any way/shape/form = Klan member using Jesus as an excuse for hating their fellow man... or "Fake Christian"

-Person who tolerates the beliefs of others even though they dont agree with their stance on a given topic = Real Christian

-Person who uses the Bible as an excuse to terrorize someone else = George Bu.. I mean Fake Christian

Remember kiddies, just because someone claims to be a christian doesnt make it so. Just the same as if I were to say I am a Robo-Ninja-Pirate doesnt make it so. Anyone with a half decent memory can quote scripture, but its the actual believer who follows it.

The one thing that disappoints me in debates like this is when those who are atheist bring out the people like the West Boro Baptist Church as a valid argument against Christianity. I think its like bringing out my friend Josh who is Puerto Rican but happens to be mentally retarted and then saying "Look! Josh here is retarded, therefor ALL Puerto Ricans must be retarded!" Its an unfair assumption based on a minority within a specific group and shouldnt be considered part of a good argument. Hell, that even refers to any atrocity done in the name of someone who stands for peace whether its hate crimes against gays that we see today, blacks in America back when the nation started or the Jews back during the dark ages. If you want to bash Christianity, go for the actual Christians, go after Christ. If you want to water down your argument because going after the man who spread "peace and love to your fellow man" wont stick, go after the west boro baptist klan... i mean "church".

Now I'm not sayign that West boro klan isnt an arguement for "bad things that can happen when morons use religion as a vehicle for their assholery" but its not the same as "why Christianity in general is bad", those are 2 different arguments.
 
Tristam Green said:
Man, words cannot express how much of your #1 moral I have for you right now.

I'm more than happy to tell anyone what crosses the line for Christians, but it really wouldn't do any good in the end, because there are people (on both sides, too!) that would not stop at the line, not even cross it, but set the line on fire and piss on it just for kicks and giggles.

The way I feel about my fellow Christians feeling singled-out because of their faith has never changed; they knew it came with the territory. Even that is outlined explicitly in our own teachings, lol.
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Thanks, I feel the same way about you because I can tell your a very classy person from your posts. I do have some opinionated views on Christianity so I'm sure I can see us clashing later on, but we'll keep it at this level, lol.
 
Thelona said:
Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and a host of others, all committed atrocities in the name of a Communist ideology that was explicitly atheistic. They persecuted religious groups to SPREAD atheism These were mass murders performed with atheism as a central part of their ideology, they were not mass murders done by people who simply happened to be atheist.
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Pro-tip: Secularism is not the same as Atheism.
 
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Cua said:
Thanks, I feel the same way about you because I can tell your a very classy person from your posts. I do have some opinionated views on Christianity so I'm sure I can see us clashing later on, but we'll keep it at this level, lol.
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I doubt it. In general, I get along quite well with people despite their faith, and almost never clash with them :)

Rorshach, :thumbsup::thumbsup:.
 
Rorschach said:
After reading like the thousandth thread on the evils of believing something that someone else doesnt, usually regarding a nutjob claiming to be a christian, I wonder 1 thing.

If people are so smart, why cant they tell the difference between a real christian, and a nutjob who does some horrible crap all the while claiming to be a christian. I mean the difference is night and day if you ask me.

-Loves his/her neighbor and even their "enemy" = Real Christian

-Loves to hate people who are differnet from them in any way/shape/form = Klan member using Jesus as an excuse for hating their fellow man... or "Fake Christian"

-Person who tolerates the beliefs of others even though they dont agree with their stance on a given topic = Real Christian

-Person who uses the Bible as an excuse to terrorize someone else = George Bu.. I mean Fake Christian

Remember kiddies, just because someone claims to be a christian doesnt make it so. Just the same as if I were to say I am a Robo-Ninja-Pirate doesnt make it so. Anyone with a half decent memory can quote scripture, but its the actual believer who follows it.

The one thing that disappoints me in debates like this is when those who are atheist bring out the people like the West Boro Baptist Church as a valid argument against Christianity. I think its like bringing out my friend Josh who is Puerto Rican but happens to be mentally retarted and then saying "Look! Josh here is retarded, therefor ALL Puerto Ricans must be retarded!" Its an unfair assumption based on a minority within a specific group and shouldnt be considered part of a good argument. Hell, that even refers to any atrocity done in the name of someone who stands for peace whether its hate crimes against gays that we see today, blacks in America back when the nation started or the Jews back during the dark ages. If you want to bash Christianity, go for the actual Christians, go after Christ. If you want to water down your argument because going after the man who spread "peace and love to your fellow man" wont stick, go after the west boro baptist klan... i mean "church".

Now I'm not sayign that West boro klan isnt an arguement for "bad things that can happen when morons use religion as a vehicle for their assholery" but its not the same as "why Christianity in general is bad", those are 2 different arguments.
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This is true. It is unfortunate when people cite poor examples of "christians" when justifying their P.O.V.

I have seen a fair mix of such posts as you describe, as well as posts that cite ideological fallacy behind the text. Unfortunately, while one is more valid than the other, a lot of times both will draw the same level of criticism. I should say the one citing the text would be better to dispute over, even if neither side is debating, but rather "proclaiming."

Not-so-ninja-edit:
Though I feel I must say, I am guilty of at least associating the nut jobs to the rationals. I feel there is something more to say about how nutjobs reflect on the religion itself on a deeper level than just fundamentalism. (Perhaps a lack of control???)
 
If he was extreme christian, I'm sure he'd know thou shalt not kill. He's a nutjob and definetly doesn't represent the beliefs of real, modern day christians. People are extremely quick to point out all the pain caused by religion. Why? Because it's incredibly easy to spot and say 'Religion caused this".

I'm not even religious, I've been to church probably 15 times in my life, all because my grandmother wanted me to go. Everything I've ever been told about it has been to do good and regardless, don't do ill unto anyone. No one ever says shit about the positive impact it has had on millions and millions of people.

No priest or whatever worth his salt would ever condone heinous acts such as this. This guy doing what he did is no different than someone coming up with any other stupid reason to kill someone.

This isn't even about religion, it's about some fucking psychopath trying to justify his own extreme beliefs.
 
I was thinking about it before. The "no one has ever killed in the 'name of atheism'" argument seems a bit of a loaded statement to me. Follow me on this.

Atheism isnt the opposite of religion, not entirely; atheism is the opposite of theism, nothing more. Mainly because of the direct definitions of atheism, theism and religion.
Atheism = Belief that God/Gods do not exist.
Theism = Belief that God/Gods do exist.
Religion = Using doctrine around theistic beliefs to form a social group (not a textbook answer, but i think you get where I'm going with this)

Sure, no one has "killed in the name of atheism", but I could also say that "no one has killed in the 'name of theism' either". Mainly because there isnt enough in and of atheism/theism itself to justify hurting someone else. You need something more. You would need nut jobs who would use either an atheistic/theistic basis for justifying hurting/killing someone else. Those who base it around theistic beliefs use religion and those base it around atheistic beliefs use... well other then communism I really dont know enough history to give more then just communism.

I would venture to say that communism is the closest thing to a "religion" that atheism has right now. And people have killed in the name of communism. Again, i dont know enough history where atheism is concerned to get more into this and sure it might not be the best comparison to religion in general, but lets be honest here atheism as a general rule has only become more popular recently. Sure there have always been those who challange the status quo, but its only been coming to the forefront relitively recently. Heh, give it time. Sooner or later you might see atheistic groups running around like in that south park episode. I mean its human nature to gather together with like minds and atheists are just as susceptible to human nature as anyone else. Its just a matter of time before there are splinter groups and whatnot.

Bah, its late and i'm loosing my track of thought :(
 
I think we're stepping onto shaky territory here. Ror, you're right in the sense that theism and atheism in themselves aren't substantial enough to be used as justification for something as they're merely too narrow. They just describe (dis)belief in deities. The structures that spring from these two concepts are more dangerous.

The communism analogy is slightly skewed in my opinion. You have to remember that theoretic Communism is a secular ideology, not atheistic. Now the only example that I can recall off the top of my head where religious institutions suffered under a Communist regime was the USSR under Stalin. But you have to consider that the overriding motive there was not the spread of "atheism", but the push for a secular, particularly brutal strand of Communism. So the intent wasn't specifically to stamp out religion or god, it was more about eradicating any power greater than that of the governing body (...or you could say "the people", depending on how red you are). Churches were just collateral. I'm not saying it was just in any way, but from my understanding, atheism was not used as justification.

Ironically, a lot of Communist regimes ended up turning into personality cults where the heads of states were "worshipped" as supreme powers (eg. Mao).

Now Religion on the other hand, is different because even though the medium changes (Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc.), theistic belief is always at the core of it all. If there's a comparable structure centred around atheistic belief which committed some atrocities in the past, then we would have a point of comparison. I'm not suggesting there aren't any, I just cannot think of one.
 
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Rorschach said:
I was thinking about it before. The "no one has ever killed in the 'name of atheism'" argument seems a bit of a loaded statement to me. Follow me on this.

Atheism isnt the opposite of religion, not entirely; atheism is the opposite of theism, nothing more. Mainly because of the direct definitions of atheism, theism and religion.
Atheism = Belief that God/Gods do not exist.
Theism = Belief that God/Gods do exist.
Religion = Using doctrine around theistic beliefs to form a social group (not a textbook answer, but i think you get where I'm going with this)
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I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. Atheism is not the opposite of theism, it is the absence of theism. As a group atheists have no common characteristics aside from a lack of a belief in god. It's really no different than if you were to divide everyone up into two groups, one that beleives in Santa Claus and one that doesn't. What do the people that don't beleive all have in common? Anything?

Sure, no one has "killed in the name of atheism", but I could also say that "no one has killed in the 'name of theism' either". Mainly because there isnt enough in and of atheism/theism itself to justify hurting someone else. You need something more. You would need nut jobs who would use either an atheistic/theistic basis for justifying hurting/killing someone else. Those who base it around theistic beliefs use religion and those base it around atheistic beliefs use... well other then communism I really dont know enough history to give more then just communism.
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You just named communism as a trait of atheists?

I would venture to say that communism is the closest thing to a "religion" that atheism has right now. And people have killed in the name of communism. Again, i dont know enough history where atheism is concerned to get more into this and sure it might not be the best comparison to religion in general, but lets be honest here atheism as a general rule has only become more popular recently. Sure there have always been those who challange the status quo, but its only been coming to the forefront relitively recently. Heh, give it time. Sooner or later you might see atheistic groups running around like in that south park episode. I mean its human nature to gather together with like minds and atheists are just as susceptible to human nature as anyone else. Its just a matter of time before there are splinter groups and whatnot.
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Atheists don't have like minds though. Atheists don't gather together to celebrate common beleifs because they don't have them.

Bah, its late and i'm loosing my track of thought :(
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You were headed entirely in the wrong direction anyway.
 
I don't know guys. Although this guy may be a nutjob, nutcase, psycho, sicko or whatever your choice name for today may be, if he says he's Christian I don't think anyone can say he's not. Maybe a REALLY SHITTY EXAMPLE of a Christian, hypocritical Christian (but I've seen MANY of those myself), and a misguided or perhaps extremely confused Christian. You can get this in EVERY belief/non-belief structure available.

Main problem I see with belief structures are that ANYONE can get the message wrong. People take what they want from what they read or from what they are told and explained.. people will ultimately perceive what they want.

Honestly, I can't say how this man wasn't a Christian, just a piss poor disgusting example of what Christianity really is. He got his teachings ALL WRONG, and if he had a couple crossed wires in his circuitry then it wouldn't take much to confuse a mind like his.

EDIT:

I don't doubt some people would use Religion as a scape-goat to dictate the reasoning behind such acts with absolutely NO religious ties. However, the extremists that are quite capable of these kinds of acts and really DO believe they are Gods Hand of Justice doing what the 'good word' has taught them they are to do, to uphold the Divine word etc... they are out there and do believe themselves to be true and good "fill in select religion'.
 
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Tristam Green said:
"Extreme Atheism = plugs ears and goes 'I can't hear you' when someone mentions the word 'God'".
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I lol'd.

Stop blaming religion for everything. FFS it's the person using it as a scapegoat that is fucked in the head. Saying "Christianity does this", "Islam does that", "Judaism promotes this" is just ignorant because the connotation is that anyone who is of that religion is as messed in the head as the most extreme person.
 
Religion isn't really needed anymore. People are learning to think more for themselves and relying on their own strengths. It is better to question than to follow easy answers, it is better to wonder than to claim to know.

Time to evolve into something greater, those old stories are dated and quite silly. All this religious tension and infighting is rather embarrassing.
 
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Morcheeba said:
I posted my "Edit" First!!! rawr
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You edited after I started to write mine and was distracted with work. How dare they give me work while I'm supposed to be working!

As for Mr. No, many people do not see religion as a weakness or a way to not have to think for themselves, (of course many people who aren't religious don't seem to understand this). Let people believe what they want to believe, it's their life, it doesn't mean they are any less intelligent or any less independent.
 
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